Detriot Deisel 8V71 engine coolant in oil broke down in Central Florida

[Lin]

It would look like the the options are a complete fix, sell it as is, do a patch fix and use it.  There are some that would do a patch fix and sell the problem, but I'm sure that it not what he is looking at.

[artvonne]

So, you reprimanded in my last post for using the phrase bus warrior had posted which was "slap it back together again" and said no one was suggesting that these folks do that and then you said it AGAIN today. So which is it?

These are the kind of discussions that just take the fun out of it for some of us.

Rick

  You mistake slapping it together with proper repair. Thats what I took issue with. Your making the assuption that doing only the repairs needed to make it function correctly is slapping it together. Nothing could be farther than the truth IMHO.

  Light Aircraft engines have major repairs made every day. For example, on several occasions while doing an annual inspection, one cylinder was noted to have low compression. In most cases it was a burned exhaust valve. In one case it was a rings that had lost compression.

  We did not pull those engines and put in another, we repaired them. We removed the faulty cylinder and fixed the engine. When done they ran perfectly. If you want to call that slapped together I guess you can. I call it practical.

  I learned to work on engines when I was young. That didnt mean R&R ing them, it meant repair. Head gaskets, valve jobs, camshaft replacement, etc., etc..

  Recall I mentioned my interest in Ferrari. If you want to meet people who can make a mountain out of a mole hill, their your group. Thankfully there are a few us old farts around who still remember when they were just "cars", rather than some idol everyone needed to make sacrifices to. But still, if you want to fall out of their favor just mention doing a simple valve job and they will avoid you like the plague. Thats tantamount to Heresy in some circles.

  No, I believe these heavy engines can go the distance, as I believe they can be repaired rather than continually replaced. But you probably have to drive it like a Bus rather than some commuter car. Make the commitment that once its started up its going to stay running all day.

[RickB]

Paul,

Quit telling me what I'm thinking okay? I'm not thinking anything, I'm quoting you. Nothing more nothing less. You seem bent on telling everyone about your airplane stuff. Interesting but this is a bus blog. Although your entitled to your opinion and I am as well, I think you're in over your head when you go out of your way to undermine advice that folks with a lot more hands on knowledge than you are giving someone that needs EXACTLY that hands on advice. You have let the Lord Family know what you would do. Great. My issue is with the fact that you and others got personal with guys that gave advice different than yours. Problem is they have forgotten more about buses than the rest of us know collectively. Those of us that have had the opportunity to be the recipients of these guys advice tend to defend them. So, if you're really sure that you're right why don't you "insure" the repairs for our friend here? You pay for it if it breaks in the next say 3-5 months.

Rick

[Busted Knuckle]

Wooo   whoa   hold on a minute I go on a 3 day trip without a computer and come back to 2 pages of bickering on a thread of someone broke down and needing help?

Paul & Rick (and others) while it is your right to agree, disagree and all other options please remember this thread is about someones need of help not your personal opinions and if you wish to debate, argue or discuss your personal opinions about the others views or opinions it should be done on YOUR own thread or PM's not the Lordfamilys thread about needing help.

Have a great day play nice, and smile!
  BK 

[saddleup]

BK, Good to have you back
Matt

[John316]

You all should mind BK, now. He bites

Lord family, I feel for you all. I know what it is like to have large repairs. A new coach may certainly be an option, but watch out for those mechanical issues. We are just now getting our coach up to where we want it to be, so I know it is reliable. This summer we are slated to replace the water pump and turbo. Why? Because we don't know the age of them, and really don't want to replace on the road.

The being said, make sure you don't make a hurried decision. Evaluate what you have in this coach, and what you would need in the next one. Maybe it is time to move to a van and RV trailer for a while. Evaluate other options. I don't often say this on a bus board, but make sure you look around. See what's out there.

Keep us updated.

God bless,

John

[RickB]

BK,

As soon as I post pages and pages of my personal opinions that contradict and undermine folks that have done the kind of good that Don and Clifford and yourself have done here you can put me in the same category as the folks who started spewing their rhetoric and moving this from a rational discussion to a "how great I art and how stupid everyone who disagree's with me is" discussion. Allowing folks to get away with this stuff is going to empty this board.
I was trying to make sure that the Lord Family realized that the vast majority of folks here side with the most experienced folks when it comes to coolant/bearings issues and I agree that a lot of posts were leading away from answers for the broken down folks that asked for help. Other than my last post and this one my attempts were to keep this on track and on subject.

These flamefests regarding oil viscosity, coolant/oil mixing effects, biodiesel. politics, religion etc are always fueled by the same folks looking for an argument and an opportunity to disagree with basically everyone about everything and they have hurt our attendance here greatly. I have no problem leaving this board if the moderators decide that these kind of discussions are healthy and encouraged.
Rick

[Van]

Quote
"Tell me Clifford is right and I can find the door now, I think its total BS myself, but if thats what y'all believe then so be it"


I don't have much experience with an over heated DD , but yea! he's probably right!
 Soo, you can get to steppin'.... or sit back and learn with the rest of us, from those in the know! Pissin every one of with those ferari and airplane experiences does no one any good with a bus problem. Here for example! I am an accomplished Bike builder with xx amount of years in the industry, a Master at all I do, plus I did stay at a holiday Inn Xpress a few years ago... what's that got to do with DD's and Buses absolutely not a damn thing! Lets keep it on topic! And quit second guessing the professionals here on the board, I for one would like to keep them around as long as we can.

 Sorry folks! Not intending to dis-respect the good folk here on the board with my rants, but just sayin' what I think needs to be said, so there !  

 Enough is enough already!
  Van

[Lin]

Van,

Did you really stay at a Holiday Inn Express a couple of years ago?  I am so disappointed!

[Van]

Lin, you're right it's starting to show isn't it ? I think it was the one in Tibet right next to the Detroit Diesel Dealer, high on a mountain top lol! Much Love and respect

[luvrbus]

If and when they put wings on a bus flying at above10,000ft with a air cooled DD with spark plugs and the FAA tells me when to pull a inspection I'll just keep on doing my thing on these old 2 strokes.

If I had a plane engine I would heed Paul's advice along with a few others here Paul is not going to change his way of thinking till it happens to him we are all that way to a certain point so why worry his thinking doesn't bother me.

I do hope the guy's engine can be repaired I called WW Williams for a price on a relibulit engine 30,000 for a 8v71 and 10 weeks waiting,38,000 for 8v92 and would you believe over 50 grand for series 60 12L

[Hard Headed Ken]

I don't know much about anything and I'm sure most anyone will back me up on that, but luckily (after my trip to Tibet) I'm in almost constant telepathic communication with two Detroit Diesel mechanics and one all around genius mechanic. I've been thinking about this thread a lot the past day or so because I sent Kerry to this forum (poor Kerry). I finally received a couple of telepathic messages. "A Diesel engine usually has about two times as much compression as a gasoline engine". The other message was about detonation, (whatever that is?) it said that "diesel engines run on detonation and that a gasoline engine will only run a few seconds with detonation occurring, then the piston rings and ring lands will break." After a few minutes past and I was thinking clearly again, I thought, what the crap has that got to do anything? We're working on antifreeze and bearings here. Is there any way this extra compression and detonation thing could put more load on the bearings? I don't see how, I mean both are engines, all engines are the same, right? Is there anyone who could explain this until I receive the next set of messages?

I want to make this perfectly clear. I don't know about Saturn 5 rocket booster engines but I'm deeply disappointed that those engines have not been spoken about in this thread, after all they are an important part of history.


Ken

[RickB]

"I called WW Williams for a price on a reliabilt engine 30,000 for a 8v71 and 10 weeks waiting,38,000 for 8v92 and would you believe over 50 grand for series 60 12L".

It's an interesting conundrum when the value of buses is going down and reliabilt's double in price over 3 or 4 years. This is not a sport for the squeamish or guys like me whose bus value is comparable to a replacement reliabilt 8v71 motor.

Clifford, I feel I owe you and Don respect for the phone calls, advice and kindness you showed me a couple years back when I bought that motor that blew up and all the other times you have helped me or others with our experienced hands on knowledge.

I guess I cross the line when I feel everyone here owes you that or that you and Don need that approval from folks.

The Lord Family will be fine, they work for a good and honest Boss! LOL!

Rick

[Van]

  Lin, I appreciate what your trying to say, but let me approach my thoughts differently.

  I was a Ferrari enthusiast probably before I could talk. I finally was blessed to own not one, but two or them and like this Bus thing found myself in the Ferrari community. I have been wrenching on engines since I was about 10 years old, didnt see anything on the Ferrari that perplexed me so tore them apart as well. But if you think some of these Bus guys are anal you aint seen nothing. Some would do a complete overhaul every plug change dressed in Ferrari clothes, others would run the engine till the timing belt broke, doing zero maintenance the whole way, then start over fresh. And everything in between.

  What ive seen and learned over the years is there are a handful men who just know engines, and tens of thousands who think they do. Does it seem logical that there are only one or two shops in all of North America that can competently work on them? No, but that is the reality. Does it seem logical that there are only two, yes, 2, body shops in all of North America, capable of doing body work on those cars to a level that no one could tell it was repaired? But those are the realities. Only because there are so many damned hacks in the world.

  Ive worked on boats and outboards, same dang story my friend, just another racket for a bunch of hacks to work at separating us from our money. And I am supposed to believe that every truck shop and Bus garage in this country is going to shoot me straight when I come hobbling in with a problem? Hahahahaha. Nope. I have 100% confidence in my own eyes and capabilities.

  I dont believe antifreeze is going to instantly corrode engine bearings to dust. I dont give a darn who made them or where they were made. And I base that on 40 years of engine work doing teardowns and overhauls on just about every kind of engine on the planet.

  Now I do believe a sump full of water could do damage, only because that big ol crankshaft likes oil, not water. But it has nothing at all to do with that water being mixed with ethylene glycol. That why you pull the caps and look. And I do believe running the heads and block out of water can do damage and cause cracks, not only because ive read it, ive seen it.

  Diesels dont like short trips. They never have. It doesnt matter what kind it is, but bigger engines are even more sensitive to short cycles. These big Detroits can take over an hour to get up to operating temperature. Longer yet on a cool day. And the heating is not equal, they heat up first in the cylinder, slowly spreading heat outward into the surrounding areas. Heat expands different metals and components at different rates. These are the clicks and pops you hear after shutdown, parts contracting against each other. Its what makes leaks, and causes gaskets to fail. Thats why I am a proponent of leaving them idle for short periods when you stop. starting them up and shutting them down can put a lot more stress on them. And the bigger the lump the more stress they would endure to rapid temperature change.

  So yes, in an RV there are probably a lot of people having trouble with these that they didnt have in service, because they are being operated with a different mind set. Change the thinking and make the Bus think its in service and it might just run like it is. Treat it like your running errands, shutting it down every 10 minutes, and it may just have a fit. My feeling of why some have seen corrosion in engine bearings after a coolant leak is because those engines werent flushed very well and were not ran long and hard enough to burn off all the contaminants.

  Anyway, im not a big fan of new engines. I have a lot more faith in one ive seen run and been inside of than I have in one ive never seen. The only way I would give up on this engine is if it has a crack in the block, there is nothing you can do about that. But there are a few guys here we are very blessed to have, who can point out those areas we need to inspect, and if y'all will just listen and trust them, 95% of the grief would melt away. If it turns out to be cracked thats one thing, but until then I would argue to proceed forward. I would suggest pulling BOTH heads though. Need to see the whole picture. Its not costing anything to inspect it, just take your time and keep looking. And if it does ultimately have to come out, it will be a lot lighter lol.

  And just to say, airplanes are like anything else. There are good ones, and bad ones, and good mechanics and bad mechanics, but in the end its generally the pilot in command who makes the day. Kind of like racing cars.

 

   

Golly gee wilbur aren,t all aviation anti-freeze coolants the same, or was that oil?
Crap! now I forgot what you all were discussing fareri's or was it the aiwoplanes? lol

[artvonne]

  Oh, our poor man blew a gasket in Podunk. Can we fix it, no we cant. And why even flippin bother. He was a fool for asking before he hit the send button. Why even do an inspection. The antifreeze already corroded his bearings, it happened in a Nanosecond. Doesnt matter if they look okay, the engine is junk because "they" said so. The blocks cracked, the heads are junk, probably got a split liner. If you even bother to try fixing it your a fool. Mechanics? what are they? Parts replacers my friend, this is the 21st century, get with the program.

  Mechanic: short for R&R. Used to mean Repair and Replace, but modern meaning is Remove and Replace. Repairs are never to be made, otherwise the rebuilders would be out of work. R&R not to be confused with resting while on the clock, though that may apply.

  The poor guy came here for help and all y'all can offer is put in a new engine or find a different Bus? Really? Thats the best help you can muster?

  You really think there is lightyears difference between engines? The basic technology is well over 100 years old. Its really NOT rocket science.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_bearing

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(metal)

  My only interest was to help save the guy a fortune. Im a mechanic, I fix things. Apparently those services are no longer needed.

  Adios.