Detriot Deisel 8V71 engine coolant in oil broke down in Central Florida

[buswarrior]

artvonne, you don't want the consensus off this board.

That would be a kin to drug abuse.

Too many contrary posts, too many say one thing and do the complete opposite when it is their turn, with their funds.

There's the theory, then there's the stark reality.

And too many trying to pretend that that the old ugly whore of a coach they own is a pretty young Christian virgin.

You knew enough already, before bus boards, carry on and head for Alaska.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[luvrbus]

The water he said he put back in is not a small leak Paul what happens on those engine is the water forces the oil above the pick up tube only takes 3 gals of water to do that and the oil pump becomes a water pump lol that is when it becomes a big problem not good  

I feel for the guy I hope he can repair it but have my doubts being that hot strange things happen even the top deck will move on the 92 series.About all need new main caps and line bored if it did break the web

I for one would not try and patch that engine but people do what they have the resources to do wish him luck he will need it even if he can patch it will short lived before it goes again

I have a couple of engines at the shop if you want to see what a coolant leak will do to one no viewing charges you can take your pick a 6v92,8v92 and 8v71 and I can take you and show you a mighty 60 series where it was destroyed  by water in the oil happens to all Cummins ,Cat's  not just a 2 stroke  

good luck

[Brassman]

I think the issue is what level of repair will achieve reliable service from the coach, and that depends on the condition of the present engine, and the uncertainty that the vehicle owner can live with. I spent a few years on an auto ferry, and the only time I got in trouble was when the boat couldn't run for the morning commute. We rebuilt engines by unit hours (now done by fuel consumed), needed or not. Of course the state paid for it, but if you cheaped out on anything, that's what broke next. And all those lawyers who wanted to get to Seattle would then call the politico's in Olympia--and you know it was the guys wearing the greasey coveralls who got in trouble.

As far as my bus, I can live with a bit of uncertainty, but I sure dread the bus being dead on the road. If I had a schedule to keep, and a family aboard, I'd thourghly go through that engine, and rebuild or replace.

[artvonne]

artvonne, you don't want the consensus off this board.

That would be a kin to drug abuse.

Too many contrary posts.
buswarrior

  I know a Mechanic friend up in Boulder. He bought a Ferrari 308 core motor out of a salvage yard down in LA. When he pulled the heads he found one piston had a welded shut hole on it. It appeared to have dropped a valve at some earlier point in life, and some hack mechanic, rather than strip it down and fix it correctly, just goobered the hole in the piston shut with a welder, in place, and slapped it back together. Thats what I call crude. But he said it appeared to have ran that way for some time by the amount of carbon deposits. What ya dont know wont always kill ya.

  I once witnessed a man whallop the prop flange of a 150 HP Lycoming that made ground contact. The flange runout was .003", accepted value was .002" IIRC. Difference between that .001" was scrap price and $20,000. He whacked her with a leather mallet saying something about metal having memory. She was just under .001" after. Do you know anything about that old crank in your motor or its history?? Probably not.

  I flew a 172 that had almost 6000 hours on the bottom end since overhaul. Never skipped a beat. Okay it suffered carb ice once and almost killed me but that dont count.

  I rode in a Bonanza after we did an engine change with a totally overhauled to as new engine. We took it up to put the required hour on it as a new engine, broke her is kind of deal. Ran great. Only notable issue was OP was about 5 psi below spec. No biggie, we would just shim up the pressure relief to bring it up to spec and call it good. Bob shimmed it next day, fired it up cold, warmed it, brought it up to 1700 and cycled the prop a few times, all good. Temp into the green, Bob brought power to full, and just as it pegged redline, WHOOOOOMMMMMMMMMmmmmmm...... Dead. Stopped deader than a door nail. The say silence is deafening? You have no clue.

  Those Continentals have lead plugs hammered into the crank oil galley ends to hold pressure, rather than screwed in plugs. Apparently one wasnt so happy and decided to live somewhere else. Glad it didnt do it when we were out having fun burning up the sky that minute or so before it ended its life. Two guys pushing a blade couldnt turn that motor after. Scary stuff that.

  The Gov of South Dakota was in a Mitsubishi MU2 with seven others. The left engine prop came apart. One of the blades went through the cabin and removed the co-pilots left arm along the way. At 24 thousand feet they declared an emergency, left engine cocked in downward angle, cannot maintain altitude, ground obscured by clouds. mayday mayday stuff. They flew down on Radar together with fligh following information from ATC. ATC said they should regain ground visibility around 1000 feet AGL. They did. They came out of the clouds at 700 feet and hit a silo in a farm field and killed everyone.

  The point? You can do everything by the book and stuff will still blow up and ruin your day.

  Fix whats broke, slap the SOB back together and enjoy life. Or spend more money I guess.

  If the block aint cracked by the best you can determine I would proceed forward. Regardless of all thats been said, I would plastigage the bearings and if they meet spec I would run them. Flush everything through as best you can, drain everything, and start over with fresh "cheap" oil. Run it 30 minutes and dump the oil and reinstall fresh with new filters. You can put brandy new bearings in it another day if it lives the next few thousand miles. Sure would suck to put in a new engine and overheat that one too. I say make this one the Guinea pig. 

 

[DMoedave]

There goes the LordFamily's idea to get a plane instead of a bus!

[lostagain]

All you can do with anything mechanical is fix it and carry on.

The Lord family will find out tomorrow what is broken and what is necessary to fix it. They can then make a decision: fix what they have, or look for an other engine to swap, or an other bus.

Looks pretty simple to me...

A break down can happen with any brand of engine, like I said, just fix it and move on.

JC

[FloridaCliff]

And too many trying to pretend that that the old ugly whore of a coach they own is a pretty young Christian virgin.
happy coaching!
buswarrior

BW,

No more posting after midnight on a Saturday Night!  EH!      


Cliff

[FloridaCliff]

All you can do with anything mechanical is fix it and carry on.

The Lord family will find out tomorrow what is broken and what is necessary to fix it. They can then make a decision: fix what they have, or look for an other engine to swap, or an other bus.

Looks pretty simple to me...

A break down can happen with any brand of engine, like I said, just fix it and move on.

JC

JC,

Exactly, and well said!

Cliff

[Lin]

One note of caution.  If they decide to get another bus, don't buy one from a church or ministry.

[Kevinmc5]

When our blower went out bringing the bus home for the first time. The mechanic asked if we where gamblers. He said I can rebuild the blower and be on your way and hope it didn't mess up any thing else or play it safe and tear down the motor and check every thing. We left the bus rented a car and drove home. The money was worth the peace of mind 3 months later when we drove the bus home and yes, there was more damage.

My suggestion would be rent a bus to stay on schedule have the engine rebuilt or get one that can and  pick it up when done. At lest you would still have revenue coming in
Good Luck

Kevin

[thomasinnv]

I am travelling ministry as well, and sometimes you just "gotta do what you gotta do". I have a family as well, and breakdowns are not fun. Before the bus I had a truck and fifth wheel, and went through 2 transmissions in the truck before I got the bus. (that was one of the deciding factors, light trucks and comercially built rv's just can't handle the road well.) Once when the transmission went out I had to leave the rv and truck at the shop for several weeks and continue on in a borrowed truck and cargo trailer. How do you think my girls liked washing thier hair under a water hose in February? Sometimes we have speed bumps in life, but God always see's you through. I am holding up your arms in prayer. Be blessed!

[Lin]

Paul, You have brought up a very interesting question regarding the dependability of these machines.  Before getting involved with them, I had the same view that you had.  Basically, if they were good for a million miles, they would certainly be good for my small use.  However, it turns out that things do not necessarily work like that.  These vehicles do what they were designed for very well; run long distances and/or long hours for many years if meticulously maintained.  That, unfortunately, does not translate into the same level of dependability when used for relatively short trips once in a while when being maintained by amateurs on an as needed bases.

Let me use Clifford as an example (I apologize, Clifford, and please tell me if I have anything wrong).  I think that everyone would agree that his expertise in this equipment far exceeds the norm here.  In fact, rather than being an amateur, he is as professional as they get.  I think also that I have gotten a sense that he loves these machines, and Eagles in particular.  As most probably know, Clifford has been using a Safari motorhome for while now after selling his Eagle.  I think if you ask him about the comparative effort and cost of travel and maintenance between the Eagle and Safari, you would find that the bus loses.  What was that he once posted about an oil change-- 7 quarts instead of 7 gallons?

Now, there are other reasons that we like buses.  They are sturdier and safer.  They are things of great beauty to those that respect engineering and design.  So, a large part of the reason that we have them is because we just plain like them.  We like trying to understand them, talk about them, innovate with them, and work on them.  It's a hobby, and as with most hobbies are not necessarily the most practical option.

[artvonne]

  Lin, I appreciate what your trying to say, but let me approach my thoughts differently.

  I was a Ferrari enthusiast probably before I could talk. I finally was blessed to own not one, but two or them and like this Bus thing found myself in the Ferrari community. I have been wrenching on engines since I was about 10 years old, didnt see anything on the Ferrari that perplexed me so tore them apart as well. But if you think some of these Bus guys are anal you aint seen nothing. Some would do a complete overhaul every plug change dressed in Ferrari clothes, others would run the engine till the timing belt broke, doing zero maintenance the whole way, then start over fresh. And everything in between.

  What ive seen and learned over the years is there are a handful men who just know engines, and tens of thousands who think they do. Does it seem logical that there are only one or two shops in all of North America that can competently work on them? No, but that is the reality. Does it seem logical that there are only two, yes, 2, body shops in all of North America, capable of doing body work on those cars to a level that no one could tell it was repaired? But those are the realities. Only because there are so many damned hacks in the world.

  Ive worked on boats and outboards, same dang story my friend, just another racket for a bunch of hacks to work at separating us from our money. And I am supposed to believe that every truck shop and Bus garage in this country is going to shoot me straight when I come hobbling in with a problem? Hahahahaha. Nope. I have 100% confidence in my own eyes and capabilities.

  I dont believe antifreeze is going to instantly corrode engine bearings to dust. I dont give a darn who made them or where they were made. And I base that on 40 years of engine work doing teardowns and overhauls on just about every kind of engine on the planet.

  Now I do believe a sump full of water could do damage, only because that big ol crankshaft likes oil, not water. But it has nothing at all to do with that water being mixed with ethylene glycol. That why you pull the caps and look. And I do believe running the heads and block out of water can do damage and cause cracks, not only because ive read it, ive seen it.

  Diesels dont like short trips. They never have. It doesnt matter what kind it is, but bigger engines are even more sensitive to short cycles. These big Detroits can take over an hour to get up to operating temperature. Longer yet on a cool day. And the heating is not equal, they heat up first in the cylinder, slowly spreading heat outward into the surrounding areas. Heat expands different metals and components at different rates. These are the clicks and pops you hear after shutdown, parts contracting against each other. Its what makes leaks, and causes gaskets to fail. Thats why I am a proponent of leaving them idle for short periods when you stop. starting them up and shutting them down can put a lot more stress on them. And the bigger the lump the more stress they would endure to rapid temperature change.

  So yes, in an RV there are probably a lot of people having trouble with these that they didnt have in service, because they are being operated with a different mind set. Change the thinking and make the Bus think its in service and it might just run like it is. Treat it like your running errands, shutting it down every 10 minutes, and it may just have a fit. My feeling of why some have seen corrosion in engine bearings after a coolant leak is because those engines werent flushed very well and were not ran long and hard enough to burn off all the contaminants.

  Anyway, im not a big fan of new engines. I have a lot more faith in one ive seen run and been inside of than I have in one ive never seen. The only way I would give up on this engine is if it has a crack in the block, there is nothing you can do about that. But there are a few guys here we are very blessed to have, who can point out those areas we need to inspect, and if y'all will just listen and trust them, 95% of the grief would melt away. If it turns out to be cracked thats one thing, but until then I would argue to proceed forward. I would suggest pulling BOTH heads though. Need to see the whole picture. Its not costing anything to inspect it, just take your time and keep looking. And if it does ultimately have to come out, it will be a lot lighter lol.

  And just to say, airplanes are like anything else. There are good ones, and bad ones, and good mechanics and bad mechanics, but in the end its generally the pilot in command who makes the day. Kind of like racing cars.

 

   

[RickB]

Paul,

If you, like me a few years back, thought this was an inexpensive or a tend itself hobby I'd say you were probably mistaken. These motors don't go a million miles (which is what i thought when I first got in them) and they are extremely vulnerable to certain situations, overheating, coolant and oil mixing, gear driven alternators and the list goes on. Unless you want to drive your bus with a constant "uneasy" feeling of that thing that you put a band aid on I suggest that you do the same thing you did with airplanes and ferrari's, do it your way, but when folks ask for advice here you better be prepared for some if not most to side with Clifford and Don, if that's a problem you're probably going to find yourself arguing against most of our advice alot.

So, you reprimanded in my last post for using the phrase bus warrior had posted which was "slap it back together again" and said no one was suggesting that these folks do that and then you said it AGAIN today. So which is it?

These are the kind of discussions that just take the fun out of it for some of us.

Rick

[belfert]

Everybody has their own level of mechanical ability and depth of pocketbook.  Each situation is different.  A full rebuild is probably the absolute best option, but not everyone can afford that.

For me, I don't know if I could run with a band-aid solution knowing it could ruin a vacation and cost a bunch of money later on down the road.  My Series 60 has somewhere around 400,000 miles on it and I hope it lasts me another 100,000 miles.  I think it will as my friend sold his semi tractor with 1.2 million miles and the Series 60 had never been overhauled.

For someone who is full timing or retired and doesn't have to be somewhere at a certain time then a blown motor may not be as big an issue.  They could possibly sit in one location and find the best way to get repairs done.