Commercial vs non-commercial use - let the flames begin!

[RJ]

In a thread on BNO, Fast Fred brought up the possibility that another busnut's coach might be considered commercial, based on it's use. Since this comes up every now and then, let me throw this fuel on the fire (These are HYPOTHETICAL situations, but worth discussing):

1) Joe Auto Enthusiast has a 20' cargo trailer stuffed with NOS OEM antique car parts. He makes the rounds of the old car swap meets towing his trailer with a crew-cab pickup sporting a self-contained cab-over slide-in camper with standard pickup license plates from his home state. During the swap meet season, he lives in his truck/camper combo full-time. Is his tow vehicle considered commercial per the DOT?

2) Joe decides he wants some more room and comfort, so he buys a 35' bus conversion that's registered as an RV, hooks it up to his trailer, and off he goes for the new season. Is his tow vehicle now considered commercial per the DOT?

What's the difference??

FWIW & HTH. . .

[Lin]

I would like to say "no" in both cases, but I do not represent the DOT, which may have a less nuanced approach than I do.  I would call anything commercial where the transport itself is the commerce.  For example, BK transporting a team or a semi carrying oranges.  Merely using a vehicle to get to a point of commerce should not require a commercial classification.  If a band drives to a concert in a van, I would not say the van should not be considered commercial.  Until they get where they're going, they are just private citizens on the road.  If they would be considered commercial, so should anyone who is driving to work.

[buswarrior]

Well, from what pot of money are the costs of the vehicles, their upkeep and fuel coming from?

If a single red penny is claimed as an expence, good luck with the denial?

If it all comes from after-tax income, personal use all the way?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[artvonne]

  The way I read the regs, any commerce makes any vehicle commercial, which technically would include driving to work. Me personally, I feel it should only be commercial when someone pays you to haul their goods or if you charge passengers.

[wildbob24]

Since both rigs are being used in furtherance of a commercial enterprise, the FMCSA would consider them both to be commercial vehicles. The only difference between the two would be the requirement of a CDL to drive the bus.

The weight threshold for a commercial vehicle is >10,000lbs, so driving your car to work wouldn't qualify.

Bob

[JackConrad]

I would like to say "no" in both cases, but I do not represent the DOT, which may have a less nuanced approach than I do.  I would call anything commercial where the transport itself is the commerce.  For example, BK transporting a team or a semi carrying oranges.  Merely using a vehicle to get to a point of commerce should not require a commercial classification.  If a band drives to a concert in a van, I would not say the van should not be considered commercial.  Until they get where they're going, they are just private citizens on the road.  If they would be considered commercial, so should anyone who is driving to work.

What if they are carrying CDs to sell?  Is this transporting a product for sale similar to the truck hauling oranges for sale?   Jack

[chev49]

Really...
Let's say you stop off at a flea market and get out your card table and have for sale some of your excess junk...

Or

Tell some on the internet you will sell them something while texting in your  bus...

Somehow i don't classify the car parts i occasionally sell at the swap meets as a commercial enterprise.

[Oonrahnjay]

I would like to say "no" in both cases, but I do not represent the DOT, which may have a less nuanced approach than I do.  I would call anything commercial where the transport itself is the commerce.  For example, BK transporting a team or a semi carrying oranges.  Merely using a vehicle to get to a point of commerce should not require a commercial classification.  If a band drives to a concert in a van, I would not say the van should not be considered commercial.  Until they get where they're going, they are just private citizens on the road.  If they would be considered commercial, so should anyone who is driving to work.

What if they are carrying CDs to sell?  Is this transporting a product for sale similar to the truck hauling oranges for sale?   Jack

    Exactly.  Let's say that we have one band -- this band two players live near each other, they meet up and drive to a gig in one member's car.  Is that car then a "commercial vehicle"?  If another band member lives on the other side of town and he drives to the gig and brings CD's and a card table to sell them on, is his car a "commercial vehicle"?  And if another band member is coming back from a trip to a bus rally in his converted bus but meets the rest of the band for a gig, is the bus a "commercial vehicle"?

     I know the the Federales would love to have a wide-spread net to catch people with, but the grey areas get pretty bizarre!

[John316]

This is something that is very close and dear to us. It has made a huge impact our us and our travelling.

Thanks to RickB (who we never here from anymore....hey Rick), we looked into this. Turns out, if you make money from/out of your rig, you are commercial. End of story, to the DOT. They don't just get you for not having your vehicle properly marked, but they go after you for tax evasion.

From what we have learned (and we have spent MANY hours researching this issue, talking to troopers, and talking to many DOT officials), if you are carrying oranges to make a profit, you are regulated. If you are carrying CD's to make a profit, you are regulated (as a private carrier, "not for hire.").

It might be the kind of thing that you never have a problem with. However, one wreck, the wrong officer, or anything else and your life is miserable.

We are completely commercial, and I carry a Class B CDL medical card, etc etc.

Have fun.

John

[luvrbus]

It is cut and dry here like BW stated in away you have Federal Tax ID or a state sales tax id you are commercial and need to have the insurance with has higher limits with the rest of the balls that go in the bag,

John I spoke with Rick not long ago he is still around and still looking for the perfect 8v92 for his bus  


good luck

[bevans6]

I know in amateur car racing this can become a big issue.  When they race and there is a money prize, they are commercial even if they don't win...  There is a gray area when there is a trophy but no prize money.  Horse racing is more cut-and-dried - they almost always race for a purse, and so are almost always commercial.

Up here there is no difference.  A drivers license is the same, regardless of commercial or not, as is the vehicle license.  For example, all pickup trucks carry a commercial license although some, at the lightest allowable GWR, can get a little sticker that makes them "private" for certain purposes.  This is a PITA for me because I have to go to the commercial waste transfer station and pay commercial rates to dump trash since I don't have the little red "personal" sticker.  We have many and very complex rules about what commercial vehicles have to do, but they are more weight related than registration related.

Brian 

[luvrbus]

All states have different rules in OK all my personal cars were registered as commercial it was the states way of making you carry 300/100/300 insurance for the cheaper plates yes commercial plates were a lot cheaper than regular plates in OK I don't know about now but then there was no paper work or special drivers license for the commercial plates on your car,bus,RV or pickup in OK

[buswarrior]

Well, if we get this wrong, how many ways do we get in trouble?

All of these carry commercial sized fines, in order to be a deterrent to a commercial enterprise...

A quick few:

Driver's licence class/endorsements
Medical/eye sight
Drug testing program
driver file back at the ranch for audit
enterprise name on door
operating authority/CVOR
IFTA - the fuel tax people
IRP - the licence plate people
insurance - meets minimum as set in regulation
vehicle lighting/reflectors/speedometer/emergency exits/etc/etc.
(Are your custom clearance lights the correct distance apart?)
inspection stickers - periodic vehicle inspections for tow and towed
vehicle files back at the ranch for audit
safety gear
log books and supporting documentation for the trip
log books/etc filed back at the ranch for audit

And note, it stays in the family with the DOT, but those fuel tax people are the government revenue people... guess who calls next, looking for more tax evasion?

Depending on jurisdiction, that list of trouble, and all the sub charges when you fail the attitude test, can easily pass $10 000.

And, Troopers are NOT legal experts, all they know is how to charge. You can't go back and sue a trooper for bad legal advice. However...A legal professional who is steeped in this area of intrigue, and familiar with the jurisdictions in which you travel should be consulted. That professional will then be available to fight on your behalf if it goes wrong.

Understand over the road commerce is quite capable of churning the depths of evil. All of these contradictory, inconsistent and broad regulations were written in an attempt to catch people who are trying to get away with something in order to make a buck. The roads and the over the road transportation industry are only as safe as they are today due to extensive government regulation and fierce enforcement.

We already rub up close to it by virtue of just owning old commercial machinery that we have conveniently re-purposed to personal use.

There are already lots of abuses of the "RV exemptions" by commercial enterprises, the regulatory machinery is simply waiting patiently for the right conditions in which to put a stop to it.

No matter the final plan, be sure of what you do, backed by legal opinion,
and don't wreck it for the rest of us!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[rv_safetyman]

Our government gives us lip service of making it easier for small business.  There are all kinds of state and national rules/laws/taxes that make it a real pain to try to have a small business.

Like John316, this is very close to home for us.  We quit doing trade shows over a year ago (couple of bus event exceptions).  Our service truck that we tow clearly shows our business.  I claimed fuel to get to the shows.  So, by most of the measures I could be considered a "commercial carrier".  

That is one of the reasons that I will be closing down the business in a month or two.  Every corner has some sort of roadblock.  I have to pay unemployment taxes.  Since I am the only "employee" and an owner, I could never collect on the benefit - so I am told.

I could go on and on, but I can no longer endure all of the crap that a small business faces.  Maybe if it was profitable it might be a different story.

One of the items that has not been mentioned, is that if the bus is commercial, it must pass a yearly DOT inspection.  That is not all bad, but it could present a problem for some.  Then there is the need to "cross the scales".  I had to do that when driving a truck for a training company I worked for.  If you get "called in" to "visit" with the DOT folks, be prepared for a fun day if you get someone who is having a bad day.

JIm

[Lin]

If you notice, I began my first post with, "I would like to say...."  I was not suggesting that the authorities would agree with me.