MCI 102DL3 vs. MC9

[jbnewman]

BK's Easter DL3 post encouraged me to ask some questions that have been on my mind for a while. We're still quite a ways financially from buying a chassis, but I'm aware that my attention to particular models is beginning to focus. And that's OK, as it allows me to focus my education a bit. Every day that goes by, I learn a bit more here about our future walls and wheels. It would be our hope to full time at some point in the future.

I started thinking about a bus conversion with an MC9 in mind. I drove MC9's in charter service once upon a time and had a good experience with them.  As time goes on, the additional space available in the 102DL3's appeals to me, though. I've discounted the other 102" MCI's, because I kinda figure that once I accept a 102" wide chassis, I might as well get the extra 5 feet in the rear. (I'm more concerned about being 102" wide than 45 feet long, especially with the steering tag).

I'll note that the "house mechanical" is mostly work I'll do almost entirely myself. The bus mechanical is currently a bit beyond me, but I learn more every day. As a result, I'll probably be outsourcing quite a bit of it.

MC9's:
- workhorse of the industry
- bugs are either worked out or well known
- pre-1984 may need steering upgrades
- readily available for $5-$10k
- older MC9's have lots of skeletons in the closet (several previous "retrofits" likely)

MC12's
- most of the benefits of the MC9, a few updates
- probably interchangeable with the MC9's, but may have fewer skeletons

102DL3's
- 20% more square footage
- way more headroom (I'm right at 6 foot) - no need for a roof raise
- prices start at about $25-30k
- most common engine is the DD60, which is more fuel efficient than what's generally found in MC9's and MC12's

Questions:

- When the DL3 came out, they had a reputation for not having the reliability of the MC9. We're now about 20 years down the road. Is a 20 year old DL3 likely to be significantly less reliable than a 40 year old MC9?

- At least in the early days, it's my understanding that the tag axles had a reputation for being problematic and expensive to fix. Again, we're 20 years down the road. Have these issues been addressed on most of the buses, or are owners experiencing long term maintenance issues with the steering tags?

- For those of you who have bought 102DL3's, do you ever rethink your platform choice?

- Ultimately, the question is, are maintenance costs on a 102DL3 likely to be less than, equal to, or greater than, a somewhat "comparable" MC9. (Noting, of course, that nothing is truly comparable, when it comes to used anything).

Many thanks for your thoughts!

-jbn

[luvrbus]

How about the 102A2 that is a nice bus 102 wide 40ft long no tag

good luck

[lostagain]

I drove and maintained a 1995 D3 for our local Junior B hockey team for a few years.

S60, 12.7 liter, pre EGR, with 7 speed manual, very reliable, lots of torque and power, goes up the hills like a car, that is a huge difference from MC9 or anything from that era. And same fuel milage.

So if you can spend the extra $, it would be worth it.

OTOH, you can buy an already converted 9 really cheap.

I have a 5C now with 6V92/HT740, slow up the hills, but gorgeous, and got it for a fraction of building cost. We love it just as much as a million dollar bus.

Maintenance cost are going to be the same more or less with a D compared to an older bus.


JC

[Scott & Heather]

Does anyone know the interior headroom of a DL3? I'm curious cause I'm at 6 foot as well. We raised our MC9 roof 9 inches and we've never been more thankful! Headroom is a major consideration as it allows us 6 footers to either feel claustrophobic and ducking all the time or feel completely at home and comfortable. If you are averse to the work of raising a roof and reinforcing it post raise, then I'm with you on buying a coach with more stock headroom.

[TomC]

Go with the DL3!!  You have about 6'10" of headroom, a modern Series 60 engine that anyone can work on (compared to the 2 stroke engines that good mechanics are becoming few and fair between), and will get much better fuel mileage then a 2 stroker-like 2mpg difference. 

I have a transit with 6'10" of headroom-I'm 6'3" and can walk under the roof airs.  My bus is also a 102" and that extra width is really noticable.  With the big windows, I don't wish for a slide out ever (especially with slide outs mechanical problems).  Good Luck, TomC

[buswarrior]

The tags on the DL3 need to be checked by someone competent.

They are floppy followers, not "steering". The "E" model has true steering tags.

The "D" can get into situations where the tags will go on the rebellion while backing, jamming over the wrong way and dragging, but there is often shades of driver error involved and wheel lock to wheel lock changes to back up. Alignment and irregular tire wear issues have to kept up.

Some fleets solved the D tag trouble by locking them up and leaving them that way. Turns like a battle ship.

If the tags were returned to spec, and aligned by someone who really knows what to do, they will well serve a busnut.

The DL3's were also prone to delaminating of the sides, if body maintenance issues were allowed to fester. Those coaches also were good at tearing up the floors. They flex a lot.

All that said, they are the last of the MCI's that I really felt the best driving. The sight lines are much better than the E and J twins. I don't like the tall dash and large pillar beside my head in those.

You'd have to pay me to take an ex Greyhound MC12. They have been run to death and been completely under capitalized their entire operating lives. Truly used up like no Greyhound before them.

MC9, as I recall, the steering change was in 1982, best to check for sure so you aren't discounting otherwise good candidates.

I really like driving the MC9 too. Finding a rare stock 8V92 with a 5 speed would  inspire a call to the bank manager .... and a divorce.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[rcbeam]

Am I out of line here by bringing up the 45 foot length issue in regards to camp sites?  The way my MC8 turns, I'd hate to drive anything bigger.

[jbnewman]

Am I out of line here by bringing up the 45 foot length issue in regards to camp sites?  The way my MC8 turns, I'd hate to drive anything bigger.

In my view, out of line would be telling me that not even [insert favorite soon-to-be-jailed politician] would ever be caught in a [insert bus here]. 

It's my understanding that the DL3, with its trailing tag (per above, not a true "steering" tag), should be able to turn into a tight spot about as well as a 40 footer. Of course, all the turning radius in the world doesn't help when the owner of said spot limits it to 35 or 40 foot beasts.

Then again, there are those who would suggest that most of turning is in the turner, not the turned.  (Now who's out of line?)

-jbn

[belfert]

I have a 43 foot Dina.  To me, it turns pretty darn good.  It does have a short wheelbase comparatively which helps.

[luvrbus]

I maybe dreaming but I think James Koler has a D series that is a 40 ft bus how about it you MCI guys was there a D series 40 ft long ? his is a 1994 or 95 model

good luck

[jbnewman]

The 102D3 is 40'. The 102DL3 is 45'.

-jbn

[buswarrior]

MC8 and pre-upgrade MC9 turn like crap. I got an MC8.

A DL3 with the tags locked turns like an MC8, so maybe that's a compliment for the 45 footer?

40 foot D model, D3, turns not bad, same as late 9 and 102 ABC.

The J model and the Prevost H345 turn like crap.

The E model is a dream, if you can control tail swinging into the next county, and pay to keep the tag steering aligned and tires on it.

My test has always been the shopping mall parking lot. If you can venture with a given coach where the seniors in a Cadillac will go, that coach is alright.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[windtrader]

Reviving this old thread. Same basic questions but now 2017. I'm leaning toward a pre-EGR MCI 102 Series 60. Most likely a mid 90's 102D3.

What is the current market, i.e. realistic purchase price of a solid one now?

I'm in California if that makes a difference. Since it will be registered as a private RV, no DPF needed or wanted.

[buswarrior]

In the used MCI 102D market, a busnut has some choices: 40 or 45 foot coaches, 11.1 or 12.7 litre S60 engines, with and without Jake brakes, DDEC3 or DDEC4 engine controls. Transmissions 6 speed Allison automatic, with and without retarder or 7 speed Spicer.

My bias would be a 40 footer with a DDEC3 12.7 S60 and 6 speed Allison with retarder.

If it has a wheelchair door, I'd only get a factory install only, if it is aftermarket, no thank you.

There are some down in the $15-25K area. check the bus brokers, beware of those couple of scam bus broker sites. If they don't have the coach right there in their hands....

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[lostagain]

I don't care for the retarder on a B500. At least the ones I have driven have an abrupt on and off, even at the lowest setting. Plus it heats up the transmission really fast and hot. I'll take Jakes any time.

The 6 speed B500 is great, and smooth. If you like shifting gears, the 7 speed manual Eaton Fuller is also really good. 1st gear is really low, and will climb a tree at idle. With a pre EGR 12.7 S60, it takes a big hill to have to down shift out of 7th. A manual will be tough to resell, because very few people want a manual anymore.

JC