MC-9 Time to Rivet

[BlueScarecrow]

I've done riveting before... repairing airplanes, but I always had help on the other side to buck. Now I need help riveting aluminum panels to the side of my bus and I'm getting all kinds of feedback that I need to get the panel hot before I rivet it into place so it won't ripple. None of the airplanes that I have worked on rippled; and those panels weren't heated.

Anybody have any ideas? I don't want to have to do this twice. These panels are $90 a piece.

Any riveters out there want to make some extra bucks?

Thanks!

[Boomer]

Most light aircraft panels are curved.

[Stormcloud]

.....plus, if they warp at 8,000 feet, who is gonna notice??    

[bottomacher]

This process has been pretty extensively covered on this board. Did you check the archives?

[rcbeam]

Blue:  I'm sorta where you are.  Weeks ago I posted requesting information, and was mostly ignored... and later also referred to the archives.  I can't count the hours I have spent on this and the BNO board reading archives and searching.  Some of those posts are informative and some useless.  A lot of them will start out with someone asking a question that never really gets and answer.  So I feel your pain.

The most information I got was from robertglines1 (Bob)... he used 16ga cold rolled steel for his MCI that he did previously... so I am going to do the same.  From all I have read in the archives so far, you should heat steel and aluminum, but the aluminum has much MORE of a tendency to wrinkle in hot weather, so the hotter you get it the better... I think I read one post that suggesed 200 F. 

Since I plan on using steel I am going with thE 3/16" rivets, every 4 or 6 inches, wish silicon or butyl caulk behind the sheets at the steel framing.

I am not sure if you use aluminum what you're rivets should be but I keep reading the website www.bylerrivet.com for rivets and supplies and also info on that part.

Not sure if any of this helps.

[Ralph7]

      I used 3/16 th X3/4 aluminum/aluminum puls on 1/8 thick fiberglass panels. Right side in bright sun temp on panels 120-150 also used Seka flex 1a, 1 tube @ 1 panel of 28 1/2 X 88 and short panel on front. Started at rear, mine has slanted front and D window.
      Remember bus is steel and expands less than alu.---try this some aluminum engines have cast impregnated liners and NO top of block to contact castiron cylinder head, just a special head gasket.
      Also some instructions in assembly of different discimiler materials (glass to steel, alu/steel) require larger hole in one or the other for expansion, just like in long runs of pipe needs U in pipe.
       If useing only glue the glue must remain flexable and not dry.

[robertglines1]

I didn't comment because I don't know about riveting other then the pop kind and using the insert /caps in the holes where the  stems break off. That's what I do when replacing Stainless steel panels. never had much luck with alum sheet. The guys that use it say keep it under tension and use external heat to warm sheet(one suggested lightly even heat from weed burner) or doing in a hot bright sun. The entertainer Prevost I am redoing has Alum sheet and from one time if day to the next from shade to sun the siding shown differant wave patterns. I don't have that problem on the area of the same coach where I installed slideouts and sheeted with 16 GA cold roll steel. Not saying what to use just a observation. I am sure the properly installed Alum would require heat-adheasive -and prob tension when installing from what I have been told by others on this board. The apparent choice of rivets is the 3/16 pop type with the caps.  I hope this helps.      I live in Evansville    Where you live?    Bob

[jmblake]

When I sided my 9 with alum I pre heated it and it looked realy good and no waves, but then I got it spray foamed and the heat from the chemical reaction in the foam put the waves back in, the sides were so hot you couldn't lay your hand on the alum. If I were doing it again I would consider using steel and stitch welding it from the back with no rivets for a smooth look. Good luck with your project. Jason

[artvonne]

  A coach Bus isnt steel, its a composite of wood floor, Steel hoops, and aluminum skin. Some have steel frame rails running fore and aft and are considered by some a body on frame type chassis though technically they are still monocoque. So with changes in temperature, Buses without frame rails will only expand lengthwise as the skin expands, dependent on the skin material.

  I have been watching this stuff for quite a while, and while I have no first hand experience installing skin on a Bus, I have a lil bit on airplanes, and have seen skin put back on Buses for body repairs. Ive also ripped a lot of it off in the dismantling of some 20 odd buses for scrap.

  The outside skin on a GMC or MCI is heavy aluminum sheet. Just like in aircraft, the skin is first installed with Cleco's, then riveted. Without Clecos I dont believe there is any way to have it come out without ripples. Also, I think many conversions use skin that is much thinner than what is used normally on the Bus, and thin sheet is much more likely to ripple. On MCI's and GMC's, the skin is the frame, just like on aircraft. But unlike aircraft, Buses generally have board flat sides, so the skin needs to be much stronger to not flex.

  I believe if sheet aluminum of equal grade, strength and thickness as the Bus has currently, were fastened down with Clecos before comencing riveting, its should lay down flat and stay that way.

[BlueScarecrow]

Ok. I can use the hot sun of Phoenix. Lay down your pliers out here and a minute later you can't pick em up. LOL

Don't have any Clecos so I went out and bought a bunch of nuts and bolts. I can use them to hold it in place until I rivet.

Thanks all for writing!!!

[bottomacher]

I used galvanized 'paint grip' steel on my MC9, 18 gauge. No wrinkles yet, although the aluminum factory siding immediately below is oil canned all to hell from the factory. If you want foolproof, bend some lines in the siding like the factory stuff before attaching.

[Bill B /bus]

We did two reskinnings. Both using 0.080"  thick Al. Foamed the first bus,PD4108, on Halloween, in Maine. Got some bulging that became permanent, about 1/4" total. Second bus, 102A3, didn't foam so no bulge. Both buses have been in -25F to 110F. Never noticed a change in the sides.
Rivets: used Al rivets on both, a drive rivet on the '08 and a pull rivet on the A3. Sikaflex adhesive on both. Both as adhesive and dissimilar metals barrier.

Bill