Direct replacement for R-12?

[artvonne]

  Most of the British colonies, Canada, Aus, NZ, and most of europe are running propane in just about everything, from cars and buses and trains to refrigerators and whole house AC.  Its primarily us in this land of the free and home of the brave that are hold outs, shakin in our boots so to speak, rather than showing the rest of the world how to "get er done".

  And really, lets all cut to the chase, it is all about money. I mean, they figured out how to sell bottled water and compressed air for Gods sakes. You think their going to give up selling freon without a fight and propaganda? Didnt Thomas Edison try to hype the dangers of AC power when he stood to lose money on his DC ideas?

  The problem for us is we have our heads so buried in the sand over safety and profits than instead of doing any real research to work the problem, weve focused on dong the same stupid things and have fallen behind the rest of the world. Everything in life is a risk. 134a is very hazardous, as is R-12, R-22, all the freons. If they arent outright capable of auto ignition, they all convert to deadly toxic gasses in the presence of a flame. And for the hype, I have never found one single verifiable accident related to anything in an air conditioning system, propane or otherwise.

[JohnEd]

Is it legal to charge our systems with "propane"?  It must work.....all those Canadians can't be wrong about anything all at the same time......right?  And add to that body all the rest of the U Ro Peens and the vote must surly be in.

I'm serious about the propane question.  Before I start asking questions at my AC shop and look stupider than usual.

John

[luvrbus]

I just read on a can of R12 I have that stuff has propane in it and is flammable lol mine is a can of DuPont R12

good luck

[artvonne]

  First off, I never believed the BS about the ozone hole and R-12. They never even knew there was a hole until 1979, how they jump on things so fast to blame man is beyond me. NOW Nasa says its most likely influenced by solar wind. The solar wind is lower than its ever been (in our short history of noting it) and the hole is almost closed.

  But anyway, I didnt like the whole 134a thing back when it started and was "playing" with propane in the early 90's. Back then you didnt dare tell anyone or they thought you were CRAZY!

  But in all honesty, once you get past the flamability issue, its about the best refrigerant. Its natural, non polluting, and for the tree huggers that still believe all the ozone garbage, its ozone safe. Far, far safer chemically, than ANY manufactured refrigerant.

  Ive had it in my Jeep for 4 years, never have to add, in fact I keep letting some off because you cannot put enough in to make the sight glass clear. You need way way less than that. If you put in enough to clear the sight glass youll lock up the compressor. and even well under that level it frosts the evaporator.

  The issue is the expansion valve, it needs to have the same gas/refrigerant as whats in the system. Theres a way to modify them but I havnt got around to it.

  All that said and considered, I do have some fears of it installed in a Bus, simply because of the volume it would take. My MC5 takes 24 pounds of R-12. Even figuring half the weight for propane, thats about 2 gallons. While I have no real fears of losing the gas outside the Bus, an evaporator leak could be quite an issue. I suppose if I pull the evap and check it over well, perhaps have it pressure tested, its probably unlikely to ever create a gross leak.

[chev49]

Ok so how well does the propane cool?
I think i will put it in something around here to see how it works, guess the way to do it is to vac the system and on refill add a bit at a time n check the thermometer as i go along.

[Hi yo silver]

Bob,
The guy at ThermoKing pulled the little remaining refrigerant from my OTR system, pulled a vacuum, checked for leaks, etc., and filled it with Freeze 12 about two years ago. It kept me cool during trips to Texas and Florida, and is still going strong. I do exercise the system about every month to keep the seals lubed. You need the certification to buy it. I'm happy with it. Don't forget to wash all the dirt out of the condensors. 
Dennis   

[artvonne]

Ok so how well does the propane cool?

  My understanding is propane is the most efficient refrigerant that can be used in a conventional refrigeration system. Converting a standard refrigerator to propane, the fridge uses something like 25% less energy for the same amount of cooling.

  There are other refrigerants, such as CO2 and Ammonia, but they would never work in a conventional system with off the shelf parts. Propane works beautifully in an R-12 system with some fiddling, and in a 134a system it will freeze you out of the car.

  CO2 operates at pressures over 1000 psi, and my understanding is it is the, or close to the most efficient refrigerant. It was used a lot in commercial systems until freons became popular, mostly because they didnt have good technology in the 20's and 30's to contain the working pressures. Currently, many car makers in europe are back experimenting with C02, and that is very likely the direction everyone will go. Except the States here, they so want to run something manufactured so they can continue raping us.

[JohnEd]

Ok so how well does the propane cool?

  My understanding is propane is the most efficient refrigerant that can be used in a conventional refrigeration system. Converting a standard refrigerator to propane, the fridge uses something like 25% less energy for the same amount of cooling.

   Except the States here, they so want to run something manufactured so they can continue raping us.

In the interest of gaining access to superior technology I propose that we look at the "why" and the "fix" for that social condition:  The supremes said: 1.  Corporations is people.  2.  Corporations have the "right" of freedom of speech, just like a people.  3.  Money is a form of speech and the rights of people/corporations shall not be infringed.  4. In a contest, it the "common" good or the benefit to the greatest number that holds sway and "greatest" refers to the LOUDEST speaker and that equates to the most moneyed.  5. Success speaks louder than any word....success is judged to be the richest in terms of material wealth...Even some religions look upon accumulation of material wealth as a sign that the Divine smiles approvingly upon you and those adherents follow a profit that advocated selfless charity and eschewed greed and possessions...and their condition of inner conflict is evidenced in their outer behaviors.  The "fix" is simple: get the money out of politics.  Why is that so difficult to understand or to to appreciate "why" people would want to keep the money in politics.

Hang in there Art.  We can improve the quality of our fuel....which is the worst in the industrialized world but the cheapest to manufacturer.  We can recover our infrastructure....which is near calamity due to our spiting Civil Servants for working in our collective behalf and "cutting the FAT out of the Gummint budgets" that maintain the infrastructure.  Virtually every budgeted item for which we have cut the budget is in shambles and still we call for more of the same FIX.  Lets try stuffing them full of cash and just see what happens.  Worked for the politicians, didn't it?  Just imagine fully funding something.  And do it with taxes collected from people that can afford pay taxes.  What a concept....that will never work in this country...right?  So far it, cutting funding, isn't working to improve the education situation that affects every blessed one of us eventually and our children right about now.   Hang in there Art...we are with you.

John on topic

[Hi yo silver]

Sorry, John,
You can label that diatribe "on topic" if you want, but any fool can read it and see that the main topic of the statement is not to address the subject of refrigerants. While I respect your right to make any statement you wish here, I would take exception to your insistance that your statement is consistent with the original topic. Related? Certainly. Just my opinion.
Respectfully,
Dennis 

[JohnEd]

Dennis,

I sympathize with your conclusion.....really I do.  Art was talking about AC and my question was "can we use propane".  Art answered that and added a comment on why we can't use propane and who was behind that Gummint decision.  He concluded it was a force associated with the manufacture of refrigerants.  My question was his segway.  His answer was mine and I continued his thought with an explanation of where the manufacture's got the HP to influence Gummint decisions that directly affect our buses in regard to refrigerant options and our national state of the art in the AC industry.  I propose that there is a reason for our not using a material that cannot be patented and isn't approved by regulations.

That you take issue with my premise indicates possibly, to me alone at least, that you sympathize with the manufacturer.  You aren't alone in that, if it is the case.  Many do.  There is a link to the topic through the replys, in my opinion.  It may be tenuous, but it is there.  To me these links of cause and effect and the corrective actions are obvious.  In this case the cause is not a "blue dress" and the corrective action si not to cut the size of Gummint.  Regardless of the possible merit of that action.

If you have a problem with what I post you can PM me and we can discuss the issue...or phone.  Or you can invite me to go off topic with you and those that care can enjoy or participate.  Your post is off topic to the original post concerning Air Conditioning.  No sweat though cause it happens to all of us.  At this juncture I hope we can leave this forum for further discussion.

I do respect you and your opinion.  I respect it on almost everything except on myself.  That opinion of yours is none of my business in a public forum.  In private, sure.  Take this as sincere and modest in tone and content.  This is a flat medium and subject to gross misunderstanding.  Don't ask how I know that.

Admiringly,

John

[Hi yo silver]

John Ed,
No disrespect intended; just a little too cerebral for me. My shortcoming, not yours.
Dennis

[JohnEd]

Dennis,


Me neither.  I still love ya.  Hope we can have a beer together one day.


John

[artvonne]

Propane works, its cheap, and virtually safe except for the flamable part. 134a is less safe (highly explosive) and highly toxic in a flame, and doesnt cool worth a darn. R-12 works "almost" as well as Propane, but also forms deadly toxic gas (Phosgene) in a flame. I got a good wiff of burned R-12 once and it wasnt funny. My lungs burned for weeks after.

  I would run R-12 without question, but not at $900 a tank. Not when a shot of Propane is like $6 worth.

[JohnEd]

Art,

That is interesting.  And we wonder why firemen wear full air supply and the cost of properly equipping a fire station keeps going up.  And freon isn't all of it by any stretch.  Aircraft seats were found to be so toxic if burned that escape from an airliner was improbable if there was any smoke inhalation whatsoever from cabin fires.  I think the firemen knew about that but their safety wasn't enuf to cause action.  Some Gummint agency had to "interfere" with the aircraft industry's "rights" to cause them to use less toxic materials in constructing aircraft.  I doubt that DeHaveland or Airbus were affected in the least.  I'll bet that Al Steel knows what fire safety code their product meets.  I wonder when those manufacturing regs took affect and what buses predate those safety considerations.  As most everything is stripped out of a bus shell we are not particularly affected.  I know that leaving the floor covering in the MCI is popular to maintain level and sound proofing and that stuff is an indestructible rubber type material.  It might behoove those that are considering leaving it in to determine whether it is approved.  I am sure nobody will rip up their floor over this but when starting out a conversion I think that info might influence the decision.  I know I have suggested leaving it in to people and with this new to me information I would no longer have an opinion to share...not without further data.  All this probably sounds like lawyer talk or someone that is really really really Green but hopefully just concerned and conservative.

The advice on actions to take in the event of a bus fire are to leave immediately.  You have mere seconds to escape.  A scant few, at that.  This new information only enforces.

Thanks again Art,

John

[Sean]

... 134a is less safe (highly explosive) ...

Better check your facts, there, Paul.  1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane is neither explosive nor inflammable.

... and highly toxic in a flame, ...

This part is true, but it is also true of most common refrigerant gases, which are nearly universally composed of halogenated hydrocarbons.  By contrast, using straight (non-halogenated) hydrocarbons instead presents a more pressing problem, namely that they are inflammable.  Note that even most hydrocarbons create toxic byproducts when burned, such as carbon monoxide (CO).

Everything is a trade-off and there is no "perfect" solution.  I can find no fault with the decision to avoid highly inflammable gases in vehicular air conditioning systems.  Neither can I find fault with the Montreal Protocol or the restrictions that resulted; even still we do not yet pay anything close to the true environmental costs of what we use.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com