Tour bus crash on I-95 in Virginia

[Len Silva]

That kind of head in the sand approach is not going to solve anything.  The bureaucrats can't do it right so let's not do anything. We don't need any more safety regulations.  Anyone stupid enough to ride a bus for half the going rate should accept responsibility for their actions.  Is that it?

Bus travel remains far safer than most any other transportation but that doesn't mean we have to accept unsafe operators.  If the regulators are not doing a good job then let's demand that they do instead of throwing up our hands and saying the government is not capable.

Of course, we also have to be willing to pay for that regulation and enforcement.

[Busted Knuckle]

Len,
I certainly appreciate your view of the problem.
KY Lakeside Travel and other companies are really having a hard time making a profit these days. It is sad to say that most of us smaller companies are either going under or being bought up by the larger companies. (most smaller operators are selling out for pay off on current debts just to get out from under it, & then going back to work for who bought them out for a steady paycheck!)

Most of us "legitimate" operators have been fighting for years to get something done about the "sleazy fly by night operators". But what really actually happens those of us that actually follow the rules get hit with another rule/law we have to follow and usually costs us more $ in the long run and the sleazy guys get away with out paying that too! They are pretty good at staying one (or more) steps ahead of the guberment agencies and just keep finding more ways to operate.

The base of the problem is the plain and simple fact that the vast majority of people riding the buses only look at how much it cost to ride the bus. Not how much it cost to operate in a safe and professional manner!  So as long as they keep paying the cheap fares or charter rates the sleazy operators keep making more & more $ and finding more ways to beat the system! 
  BK 

[artvonne]

Passanger and trooper  said driver fell asleep. 

  Yet everyone is yelling for changes to make the Bus safer, rather than making the driver fully responsible. Personal resposibility = 0. Changes to rules and regulations to mechanicals = 1.

  I can already hear the leftist argument that driving poor equipment tires you out faster, and we allready know that being tired reduces judgement, so blame the Bus and the company, its not the poor irresponsible drivers fault.

  In aviation, the pilot is not only in command, he/she is expected to know the plane is fully airworthy (safe) by having done a mandated mechanical and control system inspection prior to flight and make an educated go-no-go decision based on that inspection. If you lose control in landing and roll up the plane, the FAA report will say you lost control. IOW, even under extreme conditions, and even with sub standard equipment/failures, your expected to maintain control. How driving ever got relegated to such mediocrity and low responsibility blows me away.

  So IMHO, we dont need more beaurocracy, we dont need more feet on the ground, we dont need more rules. We need to enforce the laws and rules we already have. The driver fell asleep. That completely negates the condition of the Bus as a factor.

[Len Silva]

I think you missed my point.

It seems that there have been so many of these wrecks lately, the vast majority of them by sleazy operators, running junk equipment with under paid and over worked drivers, most of whom could not get a job with a stand up company.

I said that the same companies that would run beat up buses would hire the least qualified drivers.  I agree, personal responsibility is the key, but how do you legislate or enforce that if it not there.

And, how do you enforce the laws we have without spending a LOT more money and hiring more law enforcement?  How do you enforce the rules we have without more feet on the ground?

You cannot compare charter bus service to aviation.  What do you think would happen if a driver for one of those sleazebag companies said "that bus is not safe, and I am not driving it"?  He would be walking down the road talking to his lunchbox and another driver in the seat in a minute.

It last underwent a compliance review on April 7.
Doesn't suprise me in the least. A nother deadly burocratic blunder.
Ya lets all get help from these same idiots to keep us safer over here too. NO THANKS

Joe,
AFAIK, a "Compliance Review" is basically a file cabinet audit, nothing to do with ACTUAL performance or inspections of equipment.

[Runcutter]

I agree absolutely with Len.  With jobs hard to come by, the driver's choice is "work and feed the family", or "don't work and go hungry."  If, in this case, it is shown that the driver fell asleep, what was the cause?  Was it unreasonable schedules, with the company allowing, mandating, or tacitly ignoring Hours of Service violations?  Yes, some of the accidents lately have been drivers with bad records -- but someone hired them.  Even good drivers have to eat, so they must work somewhere.

Right now, I'm doing a consulting job for a regular client.  Overall, generally not bad, but a manager involved in my task will be the keynote speaker at the next proctologist's convention.  Once I'm done with this particular job, I know what I want to say if they call me again.  However, unless my lottery number hits soon, I may have to say "yes." 

Back many years ago, when I was doing safety audits for an insurance carrier, I reviewed a bus company in a nearby state.  They had a perfect safety record, files were in order, but I got a bad feeling about the way they did business (and, I think they tried to bribe me with some consulting work).  Nothing I could put my finger on, but I did have a discussion with the agent.  We need some way to have qualified people monitor each company.  However, as long as people ride the cheapest bus, and charter clients (particularly churches) make the decision on dollars, not potential fatalities, what do we do?  The local police were out on the highway yesterday, doing a truck enforcement/weight check.  How about grants to local police agencies (maybe State police, to take out the buddy-buddy possibility) - to monitor/investigate bus operators based in their area? 

When the Transportation Safety Institute developed its Fatigue Awareness Seminar, I went to one of the very early sessions.  It was a group of four, one for drivers, for supervisors, for managers, then for course instructors.  My take, back then, was that the session for drivers was "don't drink coffee before you go to bed."  The one for Supervisors was "tell the drivers not to drink coffee..."  For Managers -- "tell the Supervisors to tell the drivers..."  For Instructors .. "Tell them all to tell each other to not drink coffee before going to bed."  Since the bulk of my job is preparing driver work schedules in transit "runcutting", that got me pissed off -- it's management's responsibility first to prepare safe schedules.  The drivers also have a responsibility to monitor their off-time.  I volunteered through the National Transit Institute to do a half-day seminar to that effect, making it management's prime responsibility to avoid fatigue.

The problem, as I see it, is insufficient enforcement.  Inspect those buses.  Find defects? -- Pull the bus out of service where it sits.  Driver HOS violation, same thing.  File criminal violations against the company owners.  We had some here in Texas that would be shut down, and reopen under a different company name.  Took the Feds too long to shut down the next company.

Arthur   

[Runcutter]

Here is the latest news.  Apparently FMCSA had issued a shutdown order, but it was held off for ten days, based on an appeal.  On day 3, the wreck happened.  http://www.news-record.com/content/2011/06/01/article/bus_company_on_verge_of_shutdown

The other sad statistic in the article is that North Carolina State Police performed 465 field safety checks in the last six months.  That averages 2.58 per day -- not even a drop in the bucket.  Of course, we don't know if that really means only 465 vehicles, or a widespread event over six months that was 465 events -- possibly capturing a larger number of vehicles and drivers.

Further, the bus driver's life will never be the same.

Now, here's another thought.  We can rail against sleazebag bus companies, and fatigued bus (and truck) drivers.  However, how many of us have pushed for another few miles, when we're tired (I raise my hand, too).  This is what can happen.  I teach a two-day bus scheduling course.  I hit fatigue, and spend quite a bit of time on it.  One of the things I always include is the question "If a person is drunk, who is the least likely to say that the individual is drunk?"  (Of course, it's the drunk himself/herself).  "OK, if a person is tired/fatigued, not fit for duty, who is the least likely person to say that the individual is unfit?"  (Of course, it's the unfit employee who's there for a paycheck.) 

Arthur

[artvonne]

Here is the latest news.  Apparently FMCSA had issued a shutdown order, but it was held off for ten days, based on an appeal.  On day 3, the wreck happened. 

  So our choice is, live in a more totalitarian state with spot checks and heavy enforcement of compliance with heavy fines, or lay the responsibility fully, and squarely, on the driver. Yes, weve all pushed it, sometimes farther than we should have. But I think most people are concientious enough to make fairly decent educated decisions. And if we knew our butt was gonna be on the spit if we blow it big, we tioghten it up and get more careful.

  Are adults really acting any different than the children we raise? Do not the vast majority react the same way to laxidaisical rules? Take drinking and driving. The only thing thats helping is strong crimininal proceedings that get the ones who cant figure it out off the road, and teach the rest of us we better damn well watch it.

  The most unsafe Bus is far safer in the hands of a safe driver, than the safest Bus in the hands of someone who is careless. There really isnt anyone pointing a gun at anyones head to drive equipment thats truly unsafe. Put the responsibility on the driver. Just like we do for drunk driving, and just like we do with car insurance. Its the drivers responsibility all the way around. Anything less is simply irresponsible and shifting responsibility to those who shouldnt carry the burden.