GOOD NEWS - BAD NEWS

[boxcarOkie]

Had an RV Show at the fairgrounds this weekend.  We usually go about every two or three years to check out what is going on and see if anything new is on display.  This year we ran across this, a motor-home that is on dual fuel, it is being projected as a CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) vehicle.

From talking to the representative of the corporation sponsoring the vehicle it burns 70% CNG and the rest of it is diesel.  Which to me presents an interesting dilemma, who wants to look for TWO SOURCES of fuel.  The cost factor is supposedly the best bet, CNG being a lot less expensive than diesel.

According to the man I was talking to, conversion over to dual fuel, is quite pricey.  He was saying that "if it were done in the beginning (new purchase) then it would off-set the clearly apparent expense of owning a beast like this.  It is a huge investment, I believe the price he was quoting me was $25K to $40K to switch one over.

 

Devon Gas (the current owner) is now converting all of their oil field equipment (haul trucks/heavy construction) over to burn natural gas, which is a good deal for them, they are one of the leading producers of the product in the country.  They recently acquired a local trucking concern, Joe Hodges Trucking and are methodically switching all the Freightliners over to burn the new fuel.

You also have to contend with the tank issue.  Where are you going to mount the tanks?  This particular model had them mounted inside a bay (they took up the entire bay area) and it was two tanks, he said that they roughly held about 58 gallons for the pair.  You will definitely have a problem, trying to fit them under an Eagle for sure.



Taking a good hard look at it, it appears to be an "Infinity" model of the now defunct Country Coach Industries, with new paint and some inside interior appointments.  For my money, taking into consideration how many miles we travel per year, it is a no brainer.

Too rich for my blood.

BCO

[belfert]

The local State Fair converted some parking lot shuttles to natural gas in the late 80/early 90s.  The main reason they did it was because it was done for free to advertise natural gas.  A secondary reason they did it is because the vehicles were old (1940s to 1960s) and natural gas pretty much elimininated carburator issues.

The tanks required weighed probably 1000 lbs or more per vehicle.  Everyone hated to drive the CNG vehicles as they has less power.  Each vehicle was driven about 150 miles a day.  They had to be fueled twice a day.  When they used gasoline they could easily go a full day on a tank of gasoline.

You would really have to be careful finfing fuel stops if you went to CNG.  As far as I know, there is only one public CNG station in the entire Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area.  I can imagine a bus would no longer get 900 miles a tank with CNG.

CNG is/was a big thing in Utah because of some sort of state law or regulation that fixes the prices of CNG at a fairly low price.  I imagine if CNG replaced gasoline we start to see natural gas prices go way up due to supply and demand.

[boxcarOkie]

Yes, I would have to agree with you on just about all of it.  I can see no definite benefit to switching over (in my case) and the expense is just too outlandish for my pocket book.

Thank you for your comment

BCO

[Flatspot]

Interesting,
If I recall there were a number of over the road trucks that ran on butane in the late 1940s and into the '50's. Infrastructure for fueling and performance made running trucks on butane a thing of the past. So in some ways there is 'nothing new under the sun' just enough time elapsed for us to forget the past.
Did you see anything else that sparked interest at the show?
LJ

[luvrbus]

The only state I have ever seen CNG pumps was Utah they had the pumps since the late 80's still were there last year , if people convert over to CNG the same will happen like on Butane the taxes will be higher than on diesel fuel.

Fwiw engines do not last on CNG you can buy those for a dime a dozen like the series 50 there are some buses for sale right now in Little Rock with the CNG setup looking at the bids they are running around 350 bucks and they have the 730R if somebody here is looking for one it lets you install a righthanded engine in the lefty 

good luck

[Ed Hackenbruch]

I think that the buses that run in Yucca Valley are CNG powered. The fuel station was right behind the RV park we stayed in last fall....or maybe they are propane powered? Sure seems to me that it was CNG.  Lin, do you know?  If not maybe check the next time you go by there?

[luvrbus]

I was talking about a public refueling station ED on most of the ones I know that have CNG they remove the tanks to refill in Utah they are just like a gas pumps you pump and pay,the city of El Paso runs CNG but never saw a public pump there   


good luck

[artvonne]

  If the tax per gallon is the same, and they can get you to burn more of something else, by spending more of your money to set it up, by blowing environmental smoke up your wazoo, they win.

[TomC]

Here in Los Angeles, Freightliner has sold hundreds of LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas) to truck companies running in the L.A. and Long Beach port.  The dedicated natural gas Cummins ISL engine puts out 320hp and 1000lb/ft of torque running through an Allison 3000HS and 6.14 rear end (they top out at 62mph).  The engines have been working well, although they require more maintenance then the Diesels.  Oil change at 18,000miles and spark plug change at 36,000miles at $85.00 a piece (X6).  The LNG runs at about 210 degrees below zero, so even in the insulated stainless tank, the fuel is constantly boiling.  Hence, when the tank pressure gets above 150psi, it vents to the atmosphere until pressure is down.  So if you fill the truck up and let it sit for a week, you'll loose 1/4 to 1/2 of the fuel through venting (and you can't tell me that raw natural gas being vented to the atmosphere is good for smog quality).  Also, if any of the sensors or valves fail on the tank, it has to be completely drained (again to the atmosphere) to work on it.  An 85 gal Diesel equivalent tank costs about $25,000.00!  If you run two of these tanks then you could have 170gal Diesel equivalent tankage and with the trucks getting about 4-5mpg, you would have a range of about 680-750 miles.  Course that would be less if you cooked or run the generator also on natural gas.

Compressed natural gas (CNG) is pumped up to 3500psi in big tanks that look like over sized SCUBA tanks with composite coating to protect the tanks.  All the problems with LNG go away with CNG.  But-the tanks have to be inspected every 5 years and replaced every 20 years.  To get 85 gal equivalent Diesel fuel capacity, you usually run 5 tanks.  And when you replace the tanks, they are about $8,500.00 a piece!

When buying an LNG truck, it is about a $60,000.00 option-CNG is a bit more at close to $70,000.00 option.   Cummins is currently the only engine manufacturer with a dedicated natural gas engine (dual fuel is not allowed in California).  Cummins is working on bringing the ISX 11.9 liter out as a dedicated natural gas engine at about 400hp and 1450lb/ft torque-which would be enough for over the road use.  Cummins is also working on a clean Diesel dual fuel engine (which would be approved in California)-but it will be very expensive since it will both have the SCR system (Diesel Exhaust Fluid [Urea]) and natural gas system.  

Personally-I really dislike natural gas.  What is not advertised is that natural gas engines create emissions that aren't even regulated.  Like Fluorine  (smells a little like pool chlorine).  And any exhaust particulates with natural gas are so small that they get absorbed into the body-compared to the large Diesel soot that stops at the lungs and you cough out.  Diesel engines are now almost as clean as natural gas engines-actually Cummins ISX 11.9 is cleaner.  Stick with straight Diesel-you'll be much happier.  Good Luck, TomC
P.S.-LNG is still $1.99/gallon.

[luvrbus]

To show you how it works in DC the federal tax on diesel is 24.4 per gal then you have .55 cents federal tax on propane for motor fuel and a cleaner fuel figure that one lol 


good luck

[belfert]

I know that passengers at the State Fair constantly complained about the exhaust fumes when we burned CNG.  The vehicles were 1960s airplane tugs that were towing tandem custom trailers with wooden seats for passengers.  the passengers could smell all the fumes from the tug towing the trailers as everything was open air.

(Those rigs would have been totally illegal if run on a public road.  A police officer would have used up an entire ticket book if they ever got stopped.)

[artvonne]

 The LNG runs at about 210 degrees below zero, so even in the insulated stainless tank, the fuel is constantly boiling.  Hence, when the tank pressure gets above 150psi, it vents to the atmosphere until pressure is down.  So if you fill the truck up and let it sit for a week, you'll loose 1/4 to 1/2 of the fuel through venting (and you can't tell me that raw natural gas being vented to the atmosphere is good for smog quality).

  So the home City to smog and treehugging environazis, gets the EPA to force car manufactures to sell us unvented fuel tanks and charcoal canisters and sealed fuel systems, because venting hydrocarbons is bad for the environment, and have even gone so far as to suggest Cows on farms contributing methane gas is dangerous to the environment. And these geniuses want us to convert to CNG? Well, they are the people who believe electric cars are zero emission.

  God help us all.

[luvrbus]

I don't about Cummins being the one for natural gas engines I saw some new buses headed for Portland with John Deere engines


good luck

[buswarrior]

Yup, natural gas has lots of its own evils in the emissions.

The CNG Cummins based on the L10 here at Big Transit were famous for eating exhaust valves.

They are all gone, as are the giant compressors to fuel them.

Good riddance! I have no idea how those transit properties down in the states with 100% CNG can make service, because the reliability of the ones we endured were terrible.

Watch private industry. If it makes economic sense, they will be doing it.

And remember, government interference by way of financial incentives or regulatory obstructions, change the "economic sense".

The newest diesels are making little to no pollution. That really irks the tree huggers, who have few other songs in their repertoire...

happy coaching!
buswarrior 

[happycamperbrat]

Well something has to get done! I just filled up my little Chevy skateboard after church this morning. It cost $4.01 per gallon for the cheapest gas. My little car took 8 point something gallons to fill it up, cost me $35.00 IF diesel were that low here (which it isnt), at about 6 miles to the gallon I could go about 48 miles on $35.00 ......... so figure aprox 0.75 a mile to run diesel