one more wood question

[robertglines1]

the mill tool I have doesn't have chamfer.  definitely a learning experience for me: I like it keeps me young..Thanks

[cody]

Don't feel bad bob, I'm always learning too, as far as chamfering flooring it's been a standard practice for hardwood flooring for a long time, many of the pegged floors of colonial times were chamfered, easing the edges has been a long standing practice in my family, it goes back more generations than I care to think about, I've even got a set of planes from my earliest known ancestor that came from france before the revolution there, included in that set are knives for camfering and a set of knives for doing the relief on the back of hardwood for flooring along with the t&g's, can you imagine how time consuming it was before the advent of power machines to do a floor, he was not only a cabinetmaker but as often was the case back then also a gunmaker, my grandfather had a set of cased dueling pistols that were marked 1760, dominic clische, niccolet, france.  Thats the earliest known that we have found yet in our family.

[Runcutter]

Bob, a thought on drying your wood.  You mentioned cutting it to width, then letting it finish drying.  Keep in mind that the wood will move as it dries, it'll cup, crook, twist, and warp - as well as change dimension across the grain.  If you don't have the ends painted with wood preserver, (some use latex paint), it'll check and crack on the ends.  Even with that, you'll plan to trim off the ends of the boards to get to good wood.  Thus, you might find it better to let it dry first, then dimension and surface it. 

When I turn bowls out of wet wood, I rough-turn to about 1/2 inch thickness, place in a paper bag for a few months, then come back and turn to the final profile and thickness.  The paper bag slows down the moisture loss to reduce the potential to crack, but the moisture loss will still cause the board to move.  Round is no longer round.  Bottom line, do your final surfacing and dimensioning after the wood dries.  If you go to your local woodworking store, look at some of the turning blocks and billets.  You know they were cut on a table saw, originally rectangular, but as they dried they turned as crooked as .......   

The guideline for drying is one year per inch of thickness, by the way.  Since the wood will not be used inside a house, that is more temperature/humidity controlled, perhaps the moisture content isn't as critical as with furniture (still, 18% is pretty wet.)  You want the wood to stop moving, and to be in equilibrium with its environment.  Thinking of my 4107, in Texas, its environment (heat, and humidity), has a heck of a seasonal swing.

I'm not sure either way on the chamfering.  If the wood is reasonably dry, and you install it in a dry season, it'll expand as humidity increases.  Think of a trip from Arizona to Florida, or even Dallas to Houston.  That could lead to cracking, floor raising, or something else -- the irresistable force.  You solve that by leaving a slight gap (where tongue and groove comes into play).  You can figure out how much by using one of the on-line wood movement calculators.  Mike802 will probably have ideas how finishing both sides (& edges/ends) would reduce or prevent the re-absorbtion of moisture.  The argument, then, would be to put it in somewwhat wet (8-12%?), then let it shrink in width.  I don't think that'll work, because of the cupping/twisting that could take place. 

One other principle is that, if you can't hide something, or prevent something, then show it and feature it.  Kind of like "I meant to do that."  A very slight chamfer would do that.  Think 2-3 passes with a block plane or a smoother, held at 45 degrees.  If the wood moves, and gaps open up, that'll also protect the fragile 90 degree corners previously mentioned.  In reality, you're just easing the edge slightly.   

A book that I picked up, but haven't read yet, is "A Complete Guide to Layout, Installation, & Finishing Wood Flooring".  Charles Peterson, Taunton Press - just out this year (2010).  One of my future projects is redoing the kitchen in the house, top to bottom, the kitchen and my office are candidates for wood flooring.  While writing this, I just skimmed through the book, and it looks very good (as do most Taunton Press books."     

Arthur     

[cody]

I have been told in a private message to stay out of discussions where I have no knowledge of the subject, that by winging it I am only confusing people and leading them in wrong directions and that a trip to a local library would serve to enlighten me in regards to wood working, so I'll honor the request and I apologize to those I may have confused by my trying to help, remember, at no time have I claimed to be a cabinet maker or anything other than a sawdust piler.

[Runcutter]

Huh?  The benefit of discussions is that we all have different thoughts, different approaches.  None of us knows the "right" way for anyone else.  There are darned few "musts" in life.  One of the woodworking magazines recently had an article on combining different woods in a project.  According to that article, I'm wrong for using one of my standard combinations (I forget which one, but it could have been the maple and walnut).  

The only problem, as I see it, is when any of us come off (or try to) as having the definitive answer.  I try not to, and here I'll insert my perpetual apology if any of my wording comes across that way.  In one of my posts trying to find a paint color, I was taken to task for not using the "right" (obscure) nomenclature - in the guise of "you're not smart enough to do a proper internet search without my guidance."  Years ago, I was chided for daring to use CoachNet to have my bus towed for a water leak, and posting my experience with CoachNet.  I participate very little on the "other" board, because of the tone of responses/discussions a few years ago, when I bought the 4107 and started participating in these discussions.  Accordingly, I try to be careful with my wording, but this is a difficult medium.  

Cody, your mentioning chamfers made me wonder about them in flooring.  When it comes time, that gives me something to think about, then make a decision.  No, I won't chamfer the flooring because I was told I must, but I'll consider it as an alternative that I hadn't thought of before.  The entire topic has made me wonder about the appropriate moisture content for this application, in a bus --- as opposed to the podium (maple and walnut, by the way), I recently completed that will always be in a heated, air conditioned, building.

It is the many opinions, if they are backed up by experience, that help us decide on a course of action - for better or worse.  And, we all have different levels of experience, and different ways of doing things.  I'm an amateur woodworker, probably somewhere around the intermediate/craftsman level -- not an expert.  (If you want to talk about bus scheduling, transit operations, come see me.)  As such, I do woodworking, study woodworking, and spend a lot of time learning about woodworking.  There are a heck of a lot of people who know more about it than I do.  On the other hand, that also means I have more knowledge and experience than some others, so I do have something to share. 

By the way, Air Force One light blue (EC-25 so I don't get in trouble again), is about PPG 15253 for the light blue, 14703 for the dark blue.  

Arthur

[cody]

I mearly offer suggestions, people can do whatever they want, I make no claims of any kind, I don't claim to be a cabinetmaker, nore do I claim to be a professional furnature maker, a bus converter or anything else, I claim nothing.

[robertglines1]

Cody seen your work ! nice !should say it all..I'm going to do a couple test area's to learn my way..then do final one for bus..the last one I did I used Granite because I was afraid of wood.It worked..so time for a new adventure..good or bad I'm going into this with as many facts and methods as possible in the end rite or wrong it's on me..very knowledgeable people here..thanks..Bob  PS  talked to Artist friend today about a floor insert in a Egg shape to make center piece of floor.acrylics is what he works in..no charge to me he just wants to have a influence on floor.He's sort of excited about it.prob about a 36 inch long 18 inch wide egg shape..might have to change floor pattern to compliment it..outside the box!

[happycamperbrat]

Cody, shame....... shame!!! Giving helpful advice and your opinion, on a forum with people asking for it nonetheless!!! Will you never learn?! From now on, Im the only one you can offer advice, caution or your opinion to!

He's all mine guys   

[cody]

I'm filled with remorse (among other things). I really don't care if anyone likes what I do or not, before I was old enough to walk, I played in sawdust piles, my first chores were sweeping up a shop filled with fine furniture in various stages of construction, I may have learned something over the past lifetime but probably not.  One thing that I can say is that I've walked thru bobs 89 prevo and found the workmanship to be just fine, I see no need for concern as to whether or not he can handle the floor project, in my opinion, bob greatly understates his understanding of how wood works.  My only claim to fame is that I spent 3 summers back in high school doing period furniture restoration at the fort in Mackinaw City, and no, I didn't enjoy white tights and short pants and powdered wigs tho I may rethink that in the future.    http://www.mightymac.org/michilimackinac.htm

[mike802]

Mike802 will probably have ideas how finishing both sides (& edges/ends) would reduce or prevent the re-absorbtion of moisture.

During my apprentice days, my boss built a table for his showroom as a  demonstration to help explain to clients the concept of wood movement.   Once completed a picture was taken of the finished top, it had three wide boards for the top with bread board ends, each board was pegged in the middle through the bread board to allow for movement.  Within a year there must have been a 1 inch gap between each board, the picture taken earlier giving proof that the boards were once tight together. This simple demonstration has remained with me, and is always in my mind when building furniture. Wood shrinkage is based on a percentage of the boards width and species.  The wider the board, the more dramatic the shrinkage.

The term "wood working expert" always makes me chuckle. The field of wood working is so vast no one can become an expert in all fascists in one lifetime. Sure I am an expert at what I build, but I could not build a violin to save my life, yea, I could build something that looks like a violin, but how would it sound?  Some woodworkers spend their whole career building chairs, its not to difficult to build a good looking chair with nice tight joints, but how long will that chair stay together? That's the tough part and a good place where different moisture contents can come together to form a joint that actually becomes tighter as the wood drys.

No matter what aspect of woodworking a person chooses to study the one thing that remains constant is that of wood moment. Trying to work wood that is not properly dried down is futile. Wood will act, at times unpredictable and do some odd things, with lots of force.

That being said, I do not make my own flooring. I usually buy pre-finished and install it myself.  I am not a flooring expert, but I can give some advice on different finishes that can be used. The same advice I am giving here can also be found in Fine Woodworking Dec. 2010 issue #215, yes the current issue.
The test was performed to see how much moisture was repelled using the different finishes.

Paste wax 17% day 1, 0% after 7 days

Linseed oil 18% day 1, 2% after 7 days, 0% after 14 days

Tung oil 52% day 1, 6% after 7 days, 2% after 14 days

Nitrocellulose Lacquer 79% day 1, 37% after 7 days, 19% after 14 days

Spar varnish 87% day 1, 53% after day 7, 30% after 14 days

Shellac 91% day 1, 64% after day 7, 42% after 14 days

Oil based polyurethane 90% day 1, 64% after day 7, 44% after 14 days

Oil based paint 97% day 1, 86% after 7 days, 80% after 14 days

Should all surfaces be finished?  I am not sure.  I know the pre finished flooring I have laid down in the past is only finished on one side. I have this flooring in my shop, it is heated during the day, but not always at night, unless it is really cold and I cant wait until noon for the shop to heat up, and I have not had any problems. The floors in my home are the old install and then finish type, this flooring only has finish on one side, was laid back in 1875, with no problems, except the old house squeak.  I don't think finishing all sides would hurt anything, but I am unsure how much you would gain, as we can see from the chart above all finishes allow some moisture to be absorbed by the underlying wood.

If I was to take on a project that entailed milling and installing my own hardwood flooring I would seriously consider the book that runcutter suggest.

[cody]

MIke, it's good to have an expert onboard, exactly how long has it been since your apprenticeship days? I often wish I had a more extensive library, I am always trying to learn.

[mike802]

MIke, it's good to have an expert onboard, exactly how long has it been since your apprenticeship days? I often wish I had a more extensive library, I am always trying to learn.

Cody: I have been building furniture professionally now for sixteen years, was strictly into restoring and reupholstering ten years prior to that.  I also love learning new skills and my library is always growing.  That's what I really like about woodworking, there is always something new to learn and add to my work. Lately I have been thinking about adding some carving to my furniture, something simple that makes a statement in a quite way. I am not interested in becoming an expert wood carver, so heavy ornamental carving is not what I am looking for, although I do admire and appreciate the artistic talent that goes into it. 

My apprenticeship was not what one would call a traditional style apprenticeship, as that form of training has all but vanished today. It was more of a life long journey beginning with my neighbor when I was about 7 or 8 years old. He taught me so much and I didn't even realize it at the time.  Latter in high school I took the required shop class's, the only ones I actually excelled in.  After high school, I went to school to learn upholstering.  Eventually, I ended up as a department manager for a fairly large handcrafted furniture maker.  This is where all the pieces came together for me.  My department was responsible for building and upholstering handcrafted upholstered furniture.  Those who figured they would have to teach me how to cut mortise and tenon joints where surprised to find out I already knew, I was surprised to learn that not everybody had a neighbor to teach them the basics of craftsmanship in their garage.  The years I worked there are what I refer to as my apprentice years because it is where everything came together for me, any gaps in my knowledge that held me back from moving ahead into a higher skill set was obtained there.  For guys like us it was heaven, but as they say all good things must come to an end. 

[cody]

Pretty much what I figured.

[robertglines1]

This has been a good education for me..I now understand some basics and have learned my wrong assumptions..hope some of it rubbed off.I stand in awl for those with the love of wood and the knowledge. 1st year apprentice  Bob

[cody]

Earlier this fall I took a walk thru a modern computerized wood working facility, it is so far beyond a shop I marveled at the work being done there then became saddened by the high quality of the machinery when I realized the person running the machine had no clue as to how it became what it was. None of us, my 2 brothers or me took advantage of the skills offered to us by my father and grandfather, we all went off in different directions, I play a little with wood but there had been an unbroken line of master craftsmen in the family that dated back to the 1760's, when I think of that massive pool of knowledge that is gone now that they are both gone, I'm truly saddened at how I've wasted so many opportunities, I've got a trophy wall with degree's hanging in their nice frames that I've never used, I've spent a lifetime or 2 in law enforcement and took my pension and walked away from it, and now I'm not sure what is worthwhile pursuing or what time is left to leave that proverbial mark on society, I drove by a funeral yesterday where the parking lot was overflowing with cars lined up and down the streets, instead of thinking that a truely loved and important person was being morned by so many, I mentioned to jamie that when my time comes I'd expect as many to show up just to make sure I'm really gone.  In this bus world we all do what we want, nobody has written the laws to govern where the couch must go, we're still free to do what others say we cannot do, we are free to learn how many ways a project can't be done in order to find one of the ways it can be done.