tag axel froze

[Flight102C3]

Tag froze on driver side on my 102C3. Any tips before I start on it??

[gumpy]

Might want to post more information.  Is it off the ground?  Is it possible the air bags are not inflated (shut off)? Have you greased it?

[buswarrior]

There was a big thread about someone dealing with a stuck tag axle.

Was it on here or over at BNO?

Grease, grease, grease, and more grease. The zerks may be plugged, and require removal. What's down the hole may be solid and require the use of solvents.

Previous (and some present!) owners are notorious for not ensuring the tag bushing gets greased properly.

Don't get carried away in trying to move the axle up and down too much in the beginning to get the lube moved in. You'll risk just jamming it harder. Move it a little both ways, be sure it stays free. You'll be putting the drive up on a ramp and using a jack for this agitation.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Busted Knuckle]

here is the thread BW speaks of! Not easy to find, but I did!

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12321.msg129360#msg129360
  BK 

[fe2_o3]

      " Not easy to find, but I did! " You Da Man BK...Cable

[busshawg]

Mine was froze right up on the passenger side, same procedure would go for either side. Even if you follow all kinds of advice and do managed to get it freed up I strongly recomend removing the axle from the axle tube to do a proper clean up and grease. The grease zerks will be all plugged up and you will never be able to lube it properly if you don't.  I'm sure you don't want to hear that but after all the ***** around you'll do to get it freed up you should in my opinion just just remove it. Here's how I did it, short form
1. remove all excess weight from the axle, tire/ brake drum
2. If you have access to a jack that has wheels use it under the axle, and if your outside a pc of plywood will work as a work floor.
3. Remove all air lines
4. Remove top mounting protion of the air bag. Not sure if your bus is the same as my 9, but there is one pain in the *** bolt on the bottom of the bag. So if you do not need to replace your air bag there is no need to completely remove the bag.
5. remove the panacake clamp that holds you axle from coming out of the tube.
6. be sure the jack is taking all the weight of axle then remove your shock. Everything should be off now.
7. Now i used a ratchet style bear trap and chain and used a vehicle for a achor. I wrapped a chain around the part of the axle so that it was pulling straight. I had to use excessive force here, the remaining tires that were on the bus were actually squatting to the side somewhat.
8. Then I used a air over hydralic cylinder and used the shock mounts for the bracing points. The cylinder must push and pull.  If you don't have a cylinder they are not that expensive and can be bought at Princess Auto in Canada or Harbor frt or TSC etc.
9. I started working it back and forth keeping tension on the chain and ratchet  bear trp. The axle was quite difficult moaning and groning as it came out. But it did come out! 
10. If you have access to to a farm type guy, they will have a hyralic cylinder used for equipment that will bolt right up to the shock mounts and you can use the tractor hydralics, works like a dam

In my opion you should replace the bushing in the axle tube  while your there. With my experience you will find your tire will start wearing funny and within 6 months you will be doing it anyway and will have lost a tire.

If you do the bushing you will see on your new bushing there are a couple of extra holes for grease zerks where your bus does not have zerks for, your axle tube will probabaly have plactic plugs in the holes, remove these plasitic plugs and place zerks in, will allow much needed grease in. I don"t belive you can grease these tooooo much!

Grant

[busshawg]

Oh and as BW said , don't keep moving it all the way in one direction, move short distances each way. The hard part is getting it free, in my opinion don't settle for having it free. It needs some maintance, remove it, clean it , replace your bushing. It's woth the work.  My bus handles 75 % better in the steering now that I have done this!!!

[bowmaga]

here was my 12 step process for freeing up ours....funny thing is, the bus put me into other 12 step processes not even related....grease, heat, big jacks, blocks and a little luck and you'll have her. - good luck.  if its only been froze for a little bit, you won't have near the trouble we did.  removing the old grease zirts and installing new will help bunches.

Thanks for everyone's input on my problem.  I'm super happy on finally getting her loose and working and now I can move on to a lot more fun bus conversion stuff.  I guess to explain what i did for futrue bussers with this problem....here goes, and maybe this will help.

Mind you this is a very frustrating process.

1. Build a set of 6x6 ramps and platforms to back the bus up on to get it another 6-8" off the ground, cause you can get into anything or under anything as it sits there.

2. remove the tag tires.  We hired and trucking company with a big air on a work truck to bust the nuts loose.  I got 4 out of 20 off in 2 days and gave up.  They had the next 16 off in 5 minutes. 

3. we then removed the shocks.

4. Grease everything on the tag assembly.  should be 4 zirts.  We had to remove grease zirts and clean them up and then just replaced them.  Bought a pack of 10 at tractor supply store for $5.  Then  we new it should take grease.  Knowing that, let us know that the grease zirts weren't the reason it wasn't taking grease.  We went through 10 tubes of grease on just the tag Assembly.

5.  On the MC9 there is a clamp down on the axle that is 2 halves and has 4 bolts holding it together and 5th bold holding the top half in place.  We removed this and it was all rusted up inside.  This major corrosion wouldn't allow grease around the inside of the clamp.  This clamp holds the tag axle to the bus so that it does walk out of the bus when you are going down the road.  It also pivots in this clamp and i think this is where is was froze fast.  Or at least this was %50 of the problem.  We used penetrating oil, multiple cans on the assembly that was underneath the clamp to clean it up and help the process.

6. There are 4 bolts on each side that hold the tag axle to the frame.  A few of ours were rusted bad enough they didn't look good.  SO we torched them off and replaced them.  That just gave me peace of mind that they were good new bolts.

7.  There is no good place to jack the tag tire straight down.  We took a 12 ton bottle jack and stuck it in between the shock mounts.  Not the shock studs, but the A frame mounts that are welded to the assembly.  You have to put it in at an angle, but its possible andthe best place to get good pressure with out removing the air bag or anything else.  There isn;t a good place to pry anything....its just a pain.  We then took another small 12 ton bottle jack and stuck it horizontally between the frame and back side of the tag arm. We did this to maybe push the tag assembly out of the axle, just ever so slightly to put some sheer force on it to bust the rust loose and to break the bond of the assembly that was under that split clamp we took off.

8.  We then began to jack on the the bottle jack in between the shock mounts....we got some good pressure on it and then used a really big persuader, a 3lb sledge and a 5lb sledge and cracked on the tag where we could with out hitting a grease zirt breaking anything.

9.  And then the loudest POP you could possibly hear happend.  At that point either something broke....or it broke loose.  None of us new.  We were beyond the point of stopping, cause we didn;t have any other choices...so i gave the bottle jack a fem more pumps....and CRACK...one side busted loose....some more pumps, the more she moved.  Moved hard, but moved.

10.  Jacking it down was one thing, but then we had to get it up.  Put and air assisted 20 ton jack under the jacking post on the back side of the tag assembly and started lifting.  We lifted the entire bus.  That's when i thought we were screwed.  3lb sledge on the same area were were hitting before and CRACK...she went back up.  All was good.

11.  We repeated this up and down process on both sides until we could jack it up, then throw the manual dump valve shut to air up the tag bag, and then bag had enough of its own power pressure to push it down with ease.  We don't have an lift UP on our tag, its basically down all the time unless you want to dump the air for traction.

12.  Put some anit-seize on the lug posts, put the tires back on and we were in business.  We took some back country roads home, at a nice slow and steady pace.  The up and down roughness of the roads here in Ohio gave the tag assembly a good 3"-4" work out up and down for a 20 mile ride.  Had good enough down pressure we never locked up the tag breaks. 

Next will probably replace the air leveling valves on the back.  I think by driving it around it has helped, plus prior to moving it this weekend, I jacked it up off the ground pretty high.  I think i had the rear bumper about 42" off the ground.  I think extending the levelers, gave them some action they hadn't seen in years.  Must have excited them, cause when i let it back down a couple days later and aired it up......she was all but level.  Level enough for me.

Now we are on to more.  I'm sure i have more questions.  Thanks for everyones input again.

[busshawg]

So happy you have it loose. I hear you when you say you had the entire bus off of the ground with the jack. I did the same but wasn't lucky enough to have it break loose with heat nor with the sledge. What I found was that the grease only followed the easiest route out when greasing,once it took grease. I drove 2600 miles continually greasing with no luck of the grease getting into it properly. Therefore I thought it was best to pull the axle.
Sounds like you have it beat though, congrads!

Grant

[Sam 4106]

Hi Buswarrior,
You mention greasing the tag axle properly. Will you please elaborate on the procedure to grease them properly? I recently greased my bus and wondered at the time whether I was giving it enough. I think you would be providing a service to many by telling how to grease properly.
Thanks, Sam MC8

[JackConrad]

     I grease mine by starting at the zerk nearest the center of the cross-over tube. I pump grease until it starts to come out around the saddle clamps. Then move to the next zerk and do the same thing. Then the 2 zerks on the saddle clamps. We grease our coach before each out of state trip at the same time that we adjust the brakes, change oil & flter, and inspect underneath for any leaks and loose "stuff". This usually comes out to about every 5000-6000 miles/once a year.  Jack

[Flight102C3]

thank you all for the input. Been working out of town!  Need to read all of the info.   thank you all very much  102C3

[buswarrior]

In addition to Jack's description, a busnut may want to perform the greasing with the tag axle in different positions in its range of motion, at some point after acquiring the coach, to be more confidant that grease is reaching all the way around. Once you are sure it is getting fresh stuff all around, I wouldn't worry about going through these grand theatrics again.

Coach drive axle up on blocks, turn off the tag air, and use a jack to raise and lower the tag while greasing.

A new-to-you coach has received unknown maintenance. You want to catch that up.

Grease is much cheaper than replacement parts.

The only things that you can grease too much are DD3 chambers, alternators and joints with rubber boots, tie rod ends and the like. DD3, a single pump, same with the two zerks on the alternator. Overloading these two items with grease makes trouble.

Proudly push grease out of every other orifice that you can in the beginning. Purchase a good quality grease by the case. Buy rags by the bag. Invest in a name brand powered grease gun, tired hands take short cuts!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Busted Knuckle]

BW,
I have to add one area not to over grease. And that is the "S" cam shaft/sleeve.
Too much grease here and it runs out into the brake drum and lubricates the brakes!  (which might help if you have brakes that drag, but won't help if ya wanna stop!)

Reminds me of way back when I was into stock car racing. Our team owner was having trouble with his brakes dragging (or so he said) during a 3 hr figure 8 race. So he hit the pits (during a red flag for a wreck) and told the crew leader "My brakes are dragging."
The crew leader asked "What do you want me to do about it?"  And Larry told him "I don't care what you do, just stop them from dragging!"
Well Roy took a grease gun and greased all 4 of Larry's rotors through an opening in the wheels and sent back out on the track!
Larry got back out just as they went yellow and when the green flag dropped he stood on it and was happy it responded like he wanted.
That is until he got through the cross over and hit the brakes for the turn and kept flying straight into the wall!
It was funny about 2 hrs later when I got in a wreck and was towed off the track Larry and Roy were still yelling back and forth about it!
  BK 

[buswarrior]

Yup, and like BK says, the S cam too.

Error rate climbs high in the late night!

happy coaching!
buswarrior