Help! Need a working 4 speed Spicer gear box in Northern GA.

[Ncbob]

OK my Bus Brethren. I need your help locating a 4 speed Spicer gearbox in running condition. We've had one response from a gentleman in Ontario so far but that's not really a viable solution at this time. I wouldn't be a bit surprised that there is one or two sitting in a corner of someones shop waiting to be called back into duty.

At the moment I'm weighing having my bus towed to my spot in our summer RV park which will give me almost 6 months to come up with a replacement or should one appear through this post we could persue that option.

For those of you who don't know me or of me I have a 1968 MC5A that just loves to run off and leave Jack Conrad and Uncle Ned to set on the porch.

I'll be checking in daily to see what happens with this or you can call me at three five two, six zero three, four eight two three.

[Van]

We'll keep an eye open for one, you bet!

[Don Fairchild]

Bob;

Get a hold of Len on the board here. I just removed his and installed an automatic. It is setting here collecting dust.

Don
8884733626

[bevans6]

Len's is for sale on the spare parts board on this forum.  It's in California, though.  http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=14617.0

Can you say  what broke in yours yet, or is it still in the bus?

Brian

[zubzub]

Noticed this and thought of you....don't know if this is "Len" but it is in Calif., still for $300 + shipping should be alright....try ushipit.com for cheap shipping. All you need is one truck deadheading and you could get it there for $200 or less.

http://www.busnut.com/classifieds/index.php?a=2&b=584

[Ncbob]

Got a call from one of the Members who knows of a model 8844 Spicer 4 speed  about 60 miles south of ATL. Now we have to make the determination exactly what model is in my bus.

I'm sure there are gearboxes out there and am re-energized with the help being offered by my BusNut pals.

We, as a group, are not invincible but we're awfully close.  Great going guys.  Let's prove our worth to each other just one more time, please.

NCbob

[buswarrior]

just a crazy idea...

Does a 5 speed fit into the same space on a '5?

Breakage is always an opportunity of upgrade!!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Ed Hackenbruch]

 Bob, don't know if this will help you or not.  According to the book, the original 4 speed tranny in my 68  5A  was model number 8245D.

[Lin]

My 1965 5a book also says the 8245D was original.  I would guess that transmission was used in many, many buses.

[Ncbob]

My 5B service manual states that the 8844A Gear was used in that model. I got a call from one of the members of this board who I can only call Bob (I didn't get his user name) who know of an 8844 south of ATL. I spoke with
him this morning and he's willing to deliver the gear to the shop where the bus is now for an agreed upon price and subject to the acceptance to the shop owner. I left money there for the completion of the transaction if indeed it comes to fruition.

The shop owner feels he can put two men on it and pull the engine, exchange the gears and have me running by the end of the week.

So, (fingers crossed) we'll see if the BusGods smile upon us just one more time and life can go back to normal.
While nothing is for certain until the fat lady sings this seems like it would be a good time to thank those of you who might have had a paddle in the water on my behalf. There's no question in my mind of the value of this Board and the quality of the people who gather here.

Another local source just called me and told me that he'd located a complete bus in Clayton ,GA just a few miles south of the shop where my bus is. He said that while the engine wasn't running the tires could be aired up and the unit towed out of where it is.  That sort of struck me as just too much work for the return and any of you who know Jackie know that all would not be calm around home if I started collecting buses.  Shades of Kyle!

We'll keep you all posted and when we're in the home stretch we will advise.

Thanks to all who devoted time to my call for help.

NCbob

[bevans6]

Exchange a "gear" inside your existing box, or exchange the entire box for the new/donor one?  I would personally prefer to just swap boxes, I think it would be really hard to fully diagnose what's  wrong inside your existing box without taking the top off and looking inside.  Especially since losing 4th gear means you basically just lost the ability to lock the input shaft to the main shaft and out the back of the box.  That only takes one dog clutch.  There's a whole lot more in there that could have gone wrong!

My Spicer 8844 story, told here about 6 months ago...   I was getting ready for a long trip and decided to change the tranny fluid.  I pulled the drain plug and the fluid drained out kind of slow so when it was almost done I stuck my finger in the drain hole to see if there was a blockage.  I pulled out two big rollers out of a big roller bearing!  I went nuts trying to figure out if it was possible to have a Spicer that was running perfectly, quiet and shifting nicely, and have it shedding bearing rollers into it's sump.  I pullled the side covers off - nothing.  I pulled the rear bearing cover off the layshaft - it had all it's rollers at least!  I wondered if it was even possible for the rollers in the bearings to get past the gears - usually there isn't enough room.  In the course of this Ken from the next town who had three MC-5's got in touch - did I want another gearbox, he had one sitting in his yard that he took from his  donor bus.  I went up there and we pulled the Spicer off the 8V71 that was sitting on a pile of tires, put it in my truck and I took it home and took the top off, looked inside, and there is no way any rollers are getting out of any bearings without there being a pretty decent hue and cry in the doing of that.  So I put it on a dolly and rolled it inside my shop, put the new fluid in my gearbox in the bus, and 5,000 miles later it's still perfect...   But I have a perfect full size working model of a Spicer 8844 T-drive gearbox that I can go and look at whenever I have the urge...like I did yesterday to see if I had any ideas about what might be wrong with NCBob's gearbox.  And I can categorically state that contrary to popular belief, reverse does not use  second gear for anything.

Anyway, good luck and hope for the best!

Brian

[zubzub]

yeah the 2nd gear reverse thing is funny.....people just assume that as you pull into 2nd to engage reverse 2nd must be part of it....if you watch what happens when the rev solenoid is pulling during the into reverse shift it's fairly clear it's not going into second.

[Lin]

Reverse is too high being roughly the same as 1st.  If it were 2nd it would be more than ridiculous.

[bevans6]

Stupid Spicer Trivia On A Cold And Rainy Day:

Early on I had read in my manual that reverse gear was 6:1.  First is 4.3 to one, so reverse had to be a lot slower than first, and it just wasn't.  It was at least as fast as first and by the feel of it a little bit faster.  So today being a horrible rainy cold day and wanting a break from the computer desk where I work (I know it's hard to believe but I do work sometimes) I went out to spend some quality time with a bus part counting teeth on gears.  What I found is that reverse is an overall gear ratio of 4.22, slightly taller than first which is 4.29 (book says 4.3, they rounded off decimals differently that I did).

For those that care...  Power flows in the input shaft and down to the counter shaft via a pair of reducing gears, along the counter shaft and back up to the main shaft via the "change" gears which are selected and locked to the main shaft by sliding dog clutches.  Reverse is a coarse toothed trio of gears, one permanently locked to the main shaft since it's also the dog clutch for first and second, a coarse tooth gear cut onto the counter shaft, and a sliding idler gear that is slid by the reverse shift fork to engage the pair of fixed gears and create reverse.  All of the change gears are helical cut at what looks like a 22 degree angle, keeps them nice and quiet, while reverse gears are all square cut.

Tooth counts:
Input shaft - 30
countershaft - 42

third gear main shaft - 36
third gear counter shaft - 37

second gear main shaft - 45
second gear counter shaft - 27

first gear main shaft - 46
first gear counter shaft - 15

reverse gear main shaft - 45
reverse gear idler gear - 27
reverse gear counter shaft - 15

More trivia - why first gear is so hard to engage when at a stop and the transmission fluid is all warmed up and thin and runny...

The reverse idler gear is moved back and forth by the reverse shift fork, which is moved by the shift lever when the reverse solenoid is activated.  When it's not in reverse, the shift fork holds the idler gear right next to first gear, out of the way.  Now, recall that the main shaft reverse gear is actually cut onto the dog clutch that engages first and second gear.  Since the idler gear is parked over by first gear, when you engage first you also actually have to mesh the idler gear with the reverse main shaft gear so that it can get far enough over for the dogs to engage first.  So part of the big horrible grinding you get is actually the reverse main shaft gear engaging into the spinning reverse idler gear before it gets to the first gear dogs.  The idler gear will just be spinning sympathetically since at that point it's not connected to anything, it's just sitting there in amongst all the other spinning gears.  This is also why it's so easy to select reverse once you've been in first - the idler gear isn't spinning any more, and everything just lines up and slips into place.  Which is probably why they did it that way, since it would be totally simple to skinny up the gears so you didn't hit the idler gear on your way into first.  

Trivially Yours,  Brian

[Ncbob]

I'm happy to report m'friends that everything that can be under control is. I had a pleasant visit this morning with Wild Bob24, a member here in good standing, who brought my much needed gear replacement from a gentleman known to many of you, Ray Cox, down south of Atlanta.

Bob gave generously of his own time to do a favor for Mr. Cox and deliver the gear to the repair shop. A quick inspection by the shop owner, Clarence Carpenter showed that it was just what the Doctor ordered to get me back on the road. Bob and I went to lunch and by the time I got back they had the bus over the pit and the mechanic who drew the short straw was as busy as a dog burying a bone. Stuff was flying everywhere.

So, unless something unforeseen happens my guess that Jackie, Simon and I will have our home back early next week and we can relax a bit.

I missed out on a flight from Franklin, NC to London, KY that my host had scheduled for this afternoon. He'd just had a new engine installed in his Cessna 182 and wanted to fly us up to KY for dinner.  With all the pressure to get arrangements for the gear and schedule the repairs I'm sorry to say that I had to decline as I'd been feeling a bit lightheaded most of the morning. But being an old pilot myself I didn't want my wife to miss the opportunity so I'm sitting here writing this and she's having the time of her life, I pray.

I'll add a few notes to this thread as the time goes by to completion but I would pray that the Moderators would be kind enough to let me pass on to the Members the name and location who have taken such good care of we and the Bus during this trying time.

CWC Equipment Company in Rabun Gap, GA have the experience and talent to handle this situation with the least amount of trauma possible. I have not nor will I receive any considerations for giving them a mention. They do work on Provosts occasionally and their shop is among the cleanest I've seen.

Thank you all again for your help and support during this trying time.

NCbob