Alternative fuels

[JohnEd]

Jerry,

You are one of my heroes.  Walk'n the talk and breaking trail.  At least in this circle.

How many miles are on the 671N?  How many miles using WVO?

"Specific gravity weight and viscosity is so close to the same there is essentially no difference, when converted to bioD or the WVO is heated to 180 degrees."

That is only true if you qualify the statement.  Bio has the same cloud point as the oil stock from which it was made.  That translates to: If you are using Bio made from palm oil you will not be able to run the engine below 76 degrees(or so) unless you have heaters like WVO systems.  I have read that B100 works anywhere in the summer but in the winter the ratio goes to 10% max without heated lines and tank.  And that is because the bio will start to plug the filter.  Rape seed oil...canola, is the stock used in Europe cause it clouds at a pretty low temp and at the 3% they are required to run it is OK in the winter with the winterized Dino.  The best is PEANUT oil cause that stuff still pours below freezing.

Wal,

Do you do anything to lower the acidity of the sum oil you use?

[divinerightstrip]

Wayne,
what a great thread - I love your processor! I can see that you spent a bit of time constructing it. I wish I lived in a place where the temp allowed me to make and keep my fuel outside. I guess when Urge is running, I'll be able to, and i won't be a prisoner of New England any longer!!!

As far as having a sticky about it, I would love to see this, but I also am aware from my own experiences, that there is so much conflicting information out there.

So many people have their own way that they swear by, that other people find utterly horrendous. I could see how, even amongst friends, opinions could collide and cause some conflict and hurt feelings.

At this point, I have learned that my right way could easily be someone else's wrong way, and vice versa. I have even read (and own) so many books on the topic; these people claiming to be so-called "experts" and they too have conflicting information about what a person should do. *sigh* such is life, but it doesn't have to happen here. Perhaps if we were to start another space to talk about any sort of alternative fuel stuff, there should be some sort of separation between people sharing their own systems, and debating which systems are better than others.

In other words, it would be so wonderful if in a post like this, where Wayne is sharing with us his lovely contraption, the posts that follow would keep to the topic of asking questions about how he built it, or why he chose a certain type of tubing over another, etc. and not placing judgment. Other threads can discuss lubricity of fuel, viscosity of fuel, proper terminology, whether DDs can even handle alt fuels, etc, and go back and forth on a whole variety of things. (For example, I will keep my comments about peanut oil to another time and place !!) I just worry that if we all start debating and getting too critical, then we will miss out on all of the wonderful work of people out there who don't feel like being criticized by us.

The goal is to get as much variety is possible in here so that we can all be exposed to a bunch of great information, then take what we've read and what we've learned, and make it our own.

I realize that this may be idealistic, but not unobtainable, if we all just keep these thoughts in our minds as we post.

[wal1809]

DRT, thank you for the compliment on the processor.  Your idea of thread is a good one.  You seem wise way beyond your years.  I do think we should police ourselves.  This means if somebody is being a jackass then we should just leave the jackass alone and continue to speak of the topic on thread itself.

Sorry for those who read this prior to my editing.  This I phone will fill in where I don't want it to fill in sometimes.  When I read it later I think y'all probably think I spell like munky.

[Len Silva]

....As far as having a sticky about it, I would love to see this, but I also am aware from my own experiences, that there is so much conflicting information out there.

So many people have their own way that they swear by, that other people find utterly horrendous. I could see how, even amongst friends, opinions could collide and cause some conflict and hurt feelings.

I agree completely!  I have little patience with those who get offended when someone does not agree with them. 

Here is a guy who is doing it, not just talking about it.  All the ones who say it can't be done just mean that they can't do it, but they can sure as hell talk about it. If they get upset, let them take their ball home, we can play by ourselves.

Hardly anyone agrees with me on anything but I am still playing.

My biggest concern is finding the oil.  I no longer have the room to do anything with it, but when I did I asked around the local restaurants.  All had contracts with grease haulers and most had locked tanks.

Len

[wal1809]

Hello Len thank you for jumping in on the thread.  Here is a tip for you.  Get a collection container.  Print you some cards that say lens,s grease service.  Load up tha
e barrel in the truck  and start soliciting busnisses.  You will find one that is discrintled for what ever reason.  You can dropthe barrel off right then and there.  I devoted a day to this and had more spots than I needed.  That was during the last oil crisis.   Stay at it and you can find them.  Test the oil too, you never know what the nasty looking oil will titrate at.  So will surprise you.  Another tip for biod'ers.  Take the glycerin from a batch and use it in the new batch to catch water and lower the titration.  I have done this with 20 titrate oil and got Befween 60 and 70 percent yield when I brewed.

[cody]

I'll ask the question again and this time I have the answers, in regards to taxes, the federal government has levied taxes on homemade biofuel, both cellulose based and grease based, the tax code can be found in chapter 206 of the acts of 2008 and is relevent, also all production requires licensure and extensive documentation, of particular interest is the use of methanol, according to the ATF that would indicate refraction and is patently illegal under the homeland security act, due to the extreme explosion risk and the history of methanol being part of the process used in production of high nitrate explosives, it is punishable by prison.  Apparently the only legal way to process the grease based fuel is by heating enough to filter and acquiring the appropriate licenses and then allowing onsite inspections thru not only the EPA but the ATF and where documentation can be checked against production records, this applies to amounts no greater than 2.5 gallons or equipment capable of producing up to 2.5 gallons, greater capability indicates the commercialization of the units.  Sounds like it's easier to legally make moonshine.

[philiptompkjns]

I'll ask the question again and this time I have the answers, in regards to taxes, the federal government has levied taxes on homemade biofuel, both cellulose based and grease based, the tax code can be found in chapter 206 of the acts of 2008 and is relevent, also all production requires licensure and extensive documentation, of particular interest is the use of methanol, according to the ATF that would indicate refraction and is patently illegal under the homeland security act, due to the extreme explosion risk and the history of methanol being part of the process used in production of high nitrate explosives, it is punishable by prison.  Apparently the only legal way to process the grease based fuel is by heating enough to filter and acquiring the appropriate licenses and then allowing onsite inspections thru not only the EPA but the ATF and where documentation can be checked against production records, this applies to amounts no greater than 2.5 gallons or equipment capable of producing up to 2.5 gallons, greater capability indicates the commercialization of the units.  Sounds like it's easier to legally make moonshine.

*Fingers In Ears* LALALALALAALALALALALALALALALA

[wal1809]

Well Cody I make both shine and bio diesel.  When you come to visit we can sit down and drink some bio diesel while we Brew the next batch of shine.  We can also pray to the baby Jesus that while we are drinking and brewing the Homeland Security boys don't bust in the barn door during a raid for the illegal  amounts of methanol I have stored under the hay bails of marijuana.

[cody]

Thats funny, might even be true, couldn't say lol.  I found when I couldn't get accurate answers here, it was far easier to call the various regional offices and actually ask them, they were very informative.  I do support the alternate fuel movement but it must be done safely and in compliance with the existing laws and regulations.

[wal1809]

Alright alright!!   I purchase methanol through my company and I pay taxes on the methanol.  I do beleive if they were coming to get me they would have done it long ago.  I can't see it as a very alarming thing when all the farmers within a 200 mile radius orders 1000 upon 1000s of gallons of liquid fertilizer.  The security of those tanks would be a much greater concern.  It is spring right now and there are 2000 gallon hdpe tanks in every dry field waiting to be spread with the seeders.  

I don't want this to sound rude for I value your opinion.  You gave your opinion and deserve an answer.  The best way I can say it is I really don't give a rats behind if he government thinks I am a criminal.  I know I am not and if they do arrest me then we will let the people hear what I have to say and they will decide my fate.  If 12 people of these United States think I am a criminal for making fuel in the barn then I will accept what they do to me.  Then and only then will I stop brewing the nector of the future.  Peace out brother.

[divinerightstrip]

My biggest concern is finding the oil.  I no longer have the room to do anything with it, but when I did I asked around the local restaurants.  All had contracts with grease haulers and most had locked tanks.

Len

Hi Len,

Here is how I went about it:
First of all, when I was running my rabbit on grease full-time, I was living in Portland, Oregon. It seems as though some parts of the country are more open to this sort of thing than others! Just have patience, because eventually you will find someone who will be willing to work with you.

First of all, find a few key places that you would even want to collect from. Great examples are Mexican food places, where they have a separate fryer for just tortilla chips. "Chipotle" is a great example. Once you find someone that you trust, ask to speak with the manager or owner and explain to them exactly what you plan on doing, but have a set plan. Figure out when their grease gets collected each week. Take it from there and plan to show up right in between pickups (ie if the grease is collected every other Monday, go on the off Monday) this way, you aren't getting the dregs, and you also aren't interfering with their normal schedule, or the schedule of the disposal service. If you are dealing with someone who locks up their grease, either the tank itself or also a gate that surrounds it, you will have to be very punctual so that you don't seem like you're wasting their time, or they are waiting around for you to retrieve a key.

Second, in terms of a plan, tell them how you plan to execute your collection: the equipment that you are using to collect, how much you are going to collect at one time, how you are going to transport it. You don't want to seem like a liability, so if you just go in there with no plan, then you might scare them away from you! For example, while in Portland, I collected from a BBQ restaurant on the first and third Wednesday of every month. I showed them my car, I showed them my collection equipment, my pump, my little 5-gallon cubies, and I even explained to them how I filtered it at home. They were so excited about me and my little rabbit, that eventually, I left my cubies there next to their grease tank, and they would fill them with the cleanest grease for me.

I ended up holding a bunch of alternative energy meetings at their place, and they used to give us fries for free and joke about us using them to fuel our bodies and our cars. It was very cute.

Other places don't like to publicize, but will work with you if you "behave" well, so to speak. If you show up exactly on time, don't make a mess, don't create a scene, and go on your way as if you have no affiliation with anyone; they just don't care and don't want to talk to you!

Either way, people are pretty nice, and like to help you out! Just be honest, be excited, and the enthusiasm is contagious!

When I joined the Biodiesel Co-op a year later, I was working with about 30 other people, and I was usually assigned to the task of finding new places and introducing ourselves (so, yeah... very rarely did I have a hand in making the fuel, I just collected the grease, and explained our story! Though, on my own I have made quite a bit of "blender-bio" I call it, for experimentation, fun, class presentations - heh heh)

Good luck!

[wal1809]

Thats funny, might even be true, couldn't say lol.  I found when I couldn't get accurate answers here, it was far easier to call the various regional offices and actually ask them, they were very informative.  I do support the alternate fuel movement but it must be done safely and in compliance with the existing laws and regulations.

So far as safety I could agree with you more.  Nothing bugs me more than to see the classic "Another fire/bio diesel" headline.  That does not mean the 300 gallon tanks of methanol are anymore or less dangerous than the 300 gallon fuel tanks in every driveway around here.  People have gasoline and fuel delivered because it is easier.  These tanks are just as dangerous and need to be treated as such.  So I firmly believe we need to keep it in perspective as much as we possibly can.

My point.  If somebody comes to me and says "I want to make bio d" and they live in a city.  I would tell them to do it in separate facility with fire prevention and fire fighting capabilities and I would recomend they  not store 300 gallons at one time.  I would also tell them to go to the fire department and inform them of the operation and what chemicals are on site.
In Texas we don't even need a plackard for less than 400 gallons while transporting the methanol.n that is why you will only see 3 55 gallon drums in transit or a cubie half full.  I have it delivered so I don't have to Jack with it.  The less work I do for a gallon of product the better.  So instead of wasting fine and fuel I let them bring it to me.

[cody]

I appreciate your response, nobody is accusing anyone of being a criminal, the only thing a person can do is to hope that the other person follows thru with the proper permits so it can be done safely and upfront, especially if a person is offering tutorials on it, that'll jump a person quickly on the radar screen.  I could really care less what a person does but when they bring the board into the scope of possible investigation thats a lot to ask of a member.  On Paltalk we went thru a criminal investigation due to a pot growing room that was operating under cover, we only had around 500,000 registered members back then in the 90's but it slipped past everyone, we paid fines of over 100K on that just for incidental involvement and since then I've been hyper sensitive.  I've been involved in alternate fuels now since 1998 and have found it easier to not only get university involvement but funding by dotting the 'i's and crossing the 't's so I know how passionate a person can get.  And I hope your moon is better than some I've had and half as good as others.

[daveola]

This is my collection unit called a Super Sucker.
Under the white bag on top is a vacuum pump.  I draw a heavy vacuum on what used to be a propane tank.  When I get to my restaurants I put the end off the hose, which has a pvc wand on the end, into the barrel and about 50 seconds later I am done.  It works like a charm.

That's a brilliant idea for solving the collection pumping problem.  How long do you have to run suction for, what's your GPM, how long does it hold vacuum, and how much can it pull in compared to the tank before it starts to appreciably slow down?  I would imagine around 50% as an offhand guess.


Anyways, here's my info, as many of you have seen before.

I've converted my bus to run on straight WVO (no biodiesel needed) and I've run many thousands of miles on my system (though there are things I still plan on doing to improve it, and many things I would do differently).

http://bus.getdave.com/Infrastructure/Vegetable-Oil/

There's a full conversion album and diagrams and part listings for everything I did.

[wal1809]

I wish I could take credit for the super sucker but I robbed the idea from others.  I can pull a 29 Hg vacuum in about 15 minutes.  I had a 12 volt Thompsons pump but it would not draw a heavy  vacuum like the one I have on there now.  It was pretty slick to plug it in on he trick and by the time I got to where I
was headed it was ready. 

I think the tank I have now is 200 maybe 150 gallons.  The first drum sucks up in about 50 seconds. The second barrel takes about 2 minutes maybe 2 1/2.   

It will hold a vacuum for a long time.  I installed a pump isolation valve so when I shut off the pump the vacuum does not hurt the pump or leak through the pump.