New to the forum, introduction and some questions! (warning: lots of pictures)

[muddog16]

This won't last but you don't burn veggie oil in these....

[wal1809]

DRT,  I am going to remove my black water tank, fresh tank and the generator and go back with new higher capacity tanks of welded steel or aluminum.  I might go on a build another for WVO.  

I have an idea for heating the WVO.  It would be easy to weld in a 1 inch coupler at the top and bottom on the sides of the tank.  From the coupler you could run a pipe to a 110V  $40 clear water pump from Harbor Freight that runs off of shore power or gen power.  In the same pipe a 1 inch T can be arranged in the piping to allow a heating element from an electric hot water heater.  That would allow you to circulate oil over the heating element and it would control it own heat by thermostat.  Insulating the tank would be easy.

You could start on Dino Diesel and switch over when the heat meet requirements in the WVO tank.  I could use shore power when parked somewhere and while loading to go anywhere it could be heating on its own from shore power.  I could literally carry enough fuel in both the Dino Diesel tank and in the new one to take us all the way to Vegas and half way home.

It would be a lot easier than Bio D once the tanks are set up.  I have an idea for a  filtration system for WVO the would be easy as pie in the sky.  It is a series of tanks that drip into each other and the final product would be water free and filtered to 2 microns.  From there straight into the WVO tank.  A lot easier than making BD.  You would basically fill the top tank by way of the a clear water pump.  And when it comes to the bottom tank by gravity and time it would  be ready.

DRT what bio D plans were you using.  I built a Murphy's Machine (Google it).  It works very very well.

[JohnEd]

Anja,

My 2 cents on that engine.  A MUI or mechanical is the forerunner to the DDEC I, II or III.  When they talk about "electronic" engines the main point is the different injectors.  In the MUI the fuel is circulated to the injectors and a cam is used to compress the cylinder in the injector and create the pressure needed to "squirt" the fuel into the cylinder during compression.  Old School!  In the DDEC the fuel is more highly pressurized in what is called a"common rail" which is really a high pressure manifold.  That rail is plumbed to each electronic injector.  The "injector" is really an electronic controlled valve".  You apply voltage and it opens and lets fuel flow into the cylinder.  That rail is running at extreme pressures like 10,000 PSI.  It has to be cause it is having to "squirt" into the cylinder at compression and with that high pressure the injector orifice can be even more tiny than the MUI and will atomize the fuel so much better and that yields more complete burn and more power per unit and better MPG.  The point at which the fuel is injected can also be varied to take advantage of the different efficiencies that that flexability can contribute.  All this adds up to more power and greater efficiency for the DDEC.  Hands down and no question....way better MPG.

Then there is the down side....you knew there had to be one, right?  The DDEC ECU costs a couple grand.  It cost a grand, at least, more to have DD program the sucker.  They aren't all interchangeable.  Then there is the added complication of the TRANSMISSION ECU and the link to the DDEC ECU.  As BK says...so very complicated.  But notoriously reliable.  But when they hiccup!!!!!  Today it is getting harder to find a 2 stroke shop that has the tools and savvy to do DDEC.  Not impossible...just harder.  Shop rate is$100 per when you find him.  The MUI, on the other hand, is a simple D and while you need a savvy mech there are more that understand the MUI....and they are cheaper...sorta, and you will become one just by rubbing against it.

When BK, a great source by the way, says he suggests you replace a DDEC with a MUI he is steering you towards simplification.  If you replace the DDEC with the MUI then you just disconnect stuff cause your replacement system doesn't need it.  Then you need a shifter and you are good to go. An over simplification at best, on my part.  The 740, MUI version, is known to be bullet proof.  The electronic versions are also reliable but to trouble shoot them you need a lot of education.  That education can be overcome, to a huge degree, by the consult you get from this board and all the guys that wish they had a daughter like you seem to be.

For an idea:  A new MUI injector costs $70 or so.  The DDEC injector cost $700 or so.  We are talking "per each" here.  Maybe that clears it up better.  And of course YMMV.

It is our pleasure to talk with you and share what little knowledge we each have.  My credential says that I have every right to be more modest than the vast majority.  Be well and happy.  "Saunter" is good as it implies confidence and patience.

John

[wal1809]

Oh and yes "Fight the system"!!!  My step son is int he Army.  He was int he Iraq take over from day one and has spent 3 tours already.  I can afford to buy fuel, I don't make it to save money although I do save money.  The stand has to come from the people not the government.  It has to come from ground up.  So for every ounce of fuel we purchase we get farther and farther into a problem we will never get out of if we rely on someone else to cure.  So literally from the ground, BioDiesel is my start at changing me.  I know single handed I won't do a thing.  But together we can change each other and stop this madness of everseas spending.

[wildbob24]

John,

I must gently correct your description of  DDEC injector operation. The DDEC injector, in fact, still uses the push rod/rocker arm to activate a plunger on the injector, just like the MUI and fuel delivery to the injector is the same as the MUI....no high pressure common rail. The DDEC system replaces the governor and rack controls and handles those functions electrically.

Bob

[niles500]

Yep - He described the difference between unit injectors and common rail systems -

*****************************

The wave of the future in diesel fuel
delivery is the so-called common rail
system, which features a single tubular
reservoir supplying all the injectors
with fuel pressurized to at least 18,000
psi. A rotary gear pump feeds fuel into
the common rail; the injectors are, in
essence, simply fast-acting needle
valves which open momentarily to support
combustion as required.
Very high injection pressure is a prerequisite
for any good diesel fuel delivery
system because forcing fuel through
a tiny nozzle at extreme velocity
achieves superior fuel atomization and,
ultimately, a more complete burn.
By contrast, the unit injectors still
found on most contemporary diesels are
compact, high-pressure piston pumps
that must not only meter the fuel, but
also boost it to the required high injection
pressure within a very brief time
interval. Like an engine's intake and
exhaust valves, most mechanical injectors
are actuated by a straightforward
cam system.
**********************************

FWIW

[JohnEd]

Bob,
Thank you.....really.  I did some reading in this, obviously not enuf, cause I was interested in B100 and WVO systems.  I still recall being advised that the WVO wouldn't work in the electronic systems because of the high pressure stuff and I thought that included the DDEC engines.  I really did think they were common rail.  Thanks.

NOW am I wrong about the comparative price between MUI injectors and DDEC injectors?  Or is that comparison only valid between MUI and common rail high pressure injectors?  The reason I ask is that ANJA wants to know all this stuff.

Thanks Bob

[Busted Knuckle]

Been 5 yrs since I bought 8 remaned injectors for our 8V92 DDEC and with my garages discount I paid around $1800 with out tax.
But that was "jobber pricing", tax free, and 5 years ago! (oh yeah in Missouri too!)
  BK 
YMMV

[zubzub]

Anja,

My 2 cents on that engine.  A MUI or mechanical is the forerunner to the DDEC I, II or III.  When they talk about "electronic" engines the main point is the different injectors.  In the MUI the fuel is circulated to the injectors and a cam is used to compress the cylinder in the injector and create the pressure needed to "squirt" the fuel into the cylinder during compression.  Old School!  In the DDEC the fuel is more highly pressurized in what is called a"common rail" which is really a high pressure manifold.  That rail is plumbed to each electronic injector.  The "injector" is really an electronic controlled valve".  You apply voltage and it opens and lets fuel flow into the cylinder.  That rail is running at extreme pressures like 10,000 PSI.  It has to be cause it is having to "squirt" into the cylinder at compression and with that high pressure the injector orifice can be even more tiny than the MUI and will atomize the fuel so much better and that yields more complete burn and more power per unit and better MPG.  The point at which the fuel is injected can also be varied to take advantage of the different efficiencies that that flexability can contribute.  All this adds up to more power and greater efficiency for the DDEC.  Hands down and no question....way better MPG.

Then there is the down side....you knew there had to be one, right?  The DDEC ECU costs a couple grand.  It cost a grand, at least, more to have DD program the sucker.  They aren't all interchangeable.  Then there is the added complication of the TRANSMISSION ECU and the link to the DDEC ECU.  As BK says...so very complicated.  But notoriously reliable.  But when they hiccup!!!!!  Today it is getting harder to find a 2 stroke shop that has the tools and savvy to do DDEC.  Not impossible...just harder.  Shop rate is$100 per when you find him.  The MUI, on the other hand, is a simple D and while you need a savvy mech there are more that understand the MUI....and they are cheaper...sorta, and you will become one just by rubbing against it.

When BK, a great source by the way, says he suggests you replace a DDEC with a MUI he is steering you towards simplification.  If you replace the DDEC with the MUI then you just disconnect stuff cause your replacement system doesn't need it.  Then you need a shifter and you are good to go. An over simplification at best, on my part.  The 740, MUI version, is known to be bullet proof.  The electronic versions are also reliable but to trouble shoot them you need a lot of education.  That education can be overcome, to a huge degree, by the consult you get from this board and all the guys that wish they had a daughter like you seem to be.

For an idea:  A new MUI injector costs $70 or so.  The DDEC injector cost $700 or so.  We are talking "per each" here.  Maybe that clears it up better.  And of course YMMV.

It is our pleasure to talk with you and share what little knowledge we each have.  My credential says that I have every right to be more modest than the vast majority.  Be well and happy.  "Saunter" is good as it implies confidence and patience.

John

:)wow you must have some years on you, two cents doesn't go that far these day

[Busted Knuckle]

wow you must have some years on you, two cents doesn't go that far these day

Oh zub thanks for the gut buster! I hadn't laughed that hard all week!
  BK 

[wildbob24]

John,

Your welcome.

You're about right on the mechanical injector price. A DDEC injector will be about $350, give or take.

Bob

[JohnEd]

Well!!!! Hrumph!!!!!  I wasn't nearly as amused as BK.   It was pretty funny though..much as I might hate to admit that.

Well 350  to 70  is still an eye popper.  Thanks Bob.  Are they getting cheaper as the DDEC stuff retires or are they used in other engines?  And if the DDEC isn't common rail and the injectors are not dealing with high pressure then why the drastic price bump?

[zubzub]

Glad you took it in fun John, couldn't help myself.

[JohnEd]

Aw Zub.  Your cool man, always.  The crime would have been to not share it.

Your friend,

John

[divinerightstrip]

I know, I know I'm gonna get flamed for even suggesting you go from a DDEC & 748/750 combo to a mechanical & 740 but hey you want to do a WVO on it anyway right? (keep in mind I know NOTHING about WVO converting!) But I understand WVO is much easier to do an a mui than a DDEC!

BK,
please always speak whats on your mind, regardless of whether you may be "flamed" or not. haha. Hopefully, we all have different opinions about a lot of this stuff. I'll be the one to judge what works best for me. I'm not sure which is easier to do WVO in, I'll have to look more into that.

You go girl! (again I love that attitude!)

thanks!

DRT,  I am going to remove my black water tank, fresh tank and the generator and go back with new higher capacity tanks of welded steel or aluminum.  I might go on a build another for WVO. 

I have an idea for heating the WVO.  It would be easy to weld in a 1 inch coupler at the top and bottom on the sides of the tank.  From the coupler you could run a pipe to a 110V  $40 clear water pump from Harbor Freight that runs off of shore power or gen power.  In the same pipe a 1 inch T can be arranged in the piping to allow a heating element from an electric hot water heater.  That would allow you to circulate oil over the heating element and it would control it own heat by thermostat.  Insulating the tank would be easy.

You could start on Dino Diesel and switch over when the heat meet requirements in the WVO tank.  I could use shore power when parked somewhere and while loading to go anywhere it could be heating on its own from shore power.  I could literally carry enough fuel in both the Dino Diesel tank and in the new one to take us all the way to Vegas and half way home.

It would be a lot easier than Bio D once the tanks are set up.  I have an idea for a  filtration system for WVO the would be easy as pie in the sky.  It is a series of tanks that drip into each other and the final product would be water free and filtered to 2 microns.  From there straight into the WVO tank.  A lot easier than making BD.  You would basically fill the top tank by way of the a clear water pump.  And when it comes to the bottom tank by gravity and time it would  be ready.

DRT what bio D plans were you using.  I built a Murphy's Machine (Google it).  It works very very well.

Wayne,
I agree, onboard filtration for WVO (a good, foolproof system) would be much easier than trying to mix Bio while on a trip. In a perfect world, you need several weeks to allow for settling and water separation, but I'd really like to save up and get a really nice centrifuge. The bus engine is far more valuable than the one in my rabbit, so I will do it once, and do it right. Lots of planning!

I am planning on using a stock fuel tank for the WVO. My bus came with a spare one! As far as heating goes, I don't think I would heat the entire tank. I would most likely use a similar setup to that of the one I did in my rabbit. I'd have an electrical heated pickup, which would go to a heavy-duty fuel filter, with another heater attached to it, then a heat exchanger before the engine. That should be sufficient, rather than to spend so much energy heating the entire tank, when you aren't needing it all to be hot at once. Keep in mind, its also all needing to be 175ish, and that's also going to take a bit of time to get the entire tank that hot. I'd prefer to have it available asap.

I've seen the Murphy's in use before. Someone who I found on Craig's list with 300D parts, heated his home and ran two of his vehicles and tractor with it. Very cool!

When BK, a great source by the way, says he suggests you replace a DDEC with a MUI he is steering you towards simplification.  If you replace the DDEC with the MUI then you just disconnect stuff cause your replacement system doesn't need it.  Then you need a shifter and you are good to go. An over simplification at best, on my part.  The 740, MUI version, is known to be bullet proof.  The electronic versions are also reliable but to trouble shoot them you need a lot of education. 
For an idea:  A new MUI injector costs $70 or so.  The DDEC injector cost $700 or so.  We are talking "per each" here.  Maybe that clears it up better.  And of course YMMV.

John, all such great info. This gives me a great foundation, and options that I didn't know were available to me.

That education can be overcome, to a huge degree, by the consult you get from this board and all the guys that wish they had a daughter like you seem to be.

It is our pleasure to talk with you and share what little knowledge we each have.  My credential says that I have every right to be more modest than the vast majority.  Be well and happy.  "Saunter" is good as it implies confidence and patience.

I'm very flattered. *blushes*

I still recall being advised that the WVO wouldn't work in the electronic systems because of the high pressure stuff and I thought that included the DDEC engines. 

What would be the problem? Not high enough viscosity in the bio/size of the oil molecule vs dino diesel?

A DDEC injector will be about $350, give or take.

Been 5 yrs since I bought 8 remaned injectors for our 8V92 DDEC and with my garages discount I paid around $1800 with out tax.
But that was "jobber pricing", tax free, and 5 years ago! (oh yeah in Missouri too!)
  BK 
YMMV

Ouch! So when I hear about guys upgrading the injectors to create higher HP, it's costing them this much??

Nothing new on the bus this weekend. I have the paint now, but its raining like crazy today as it has been all weekend pretty much. Also, I worked yesterday and had a 2 1/2 hour midterm to complete. It went well though. Hopefully more soon!

-A