Bus Lug Bolts

[gus]

I'll give the ringing a try, thanks.

John,

I don't think it is SS but may be, it is the last thing to go on the rear hub before the axle goes in. It covers the end of the hub except for the axle hole and has a plastic/rubber normal looking seal inside. It looks sort of like a flattened hat. It has to be removed to adjust the bearings.

[gus]

Found out that 4104 rear lug bolts come in two different lengths. Seems the "early models" take the 4 5/8" length and the later ones take 3.5". Since my parts book only listed one length this came as a surprise to me?

The difference is in the splined shoulder area, the long bolt has a spline of 2" and the short one about 1".  I presume this added shoulder length was the reason for such stubborn resistance. These could well be the original lug bolts, 56 years old.

I got two out using my 12 ton shop press. The third one seemed to be coming out when I noticed that the top beam of my press was bending, the bolt wasn't moving at all!! I took it in to my friendly auto parts store guy who has a 40 ton press. It took an average of 15-20 tons to remove the rest and one took 26 tons. I also compressed two pieces of 1.25" water pipe into "S" shapes in the process.

I can't hammer these back in using a piece of pipe because the shoulders are beveled, this would only spread and split the pipe. I have no choice but to press them in which should go ok if I lube them well. Plan to use antiseize on the splines.

[DaveG]

You'll never be pulling those out...anti-sieze might be a bit of a waste!

[Chopper Scott]

Throw the studs in the freezer overnight and if possible heat the hub somehow (use the wife's oven! ) or even place one of those halogen shop lights on it for several hours. It will help.

[johns4104s]

I think something is not right? They should come out with a %ib hammer and go in the same way? Did you get them from Luke? If you didnt then you may, and only may have the wrong ones.
I have spent hours and lots of $$$ trying to match parts, when i should of checked with Bill and Luke to begin with.
I have one 1957, and two 1960 4104,s  the parts have to be right if not lots of trip problems.
Check your vulcanised fan hub regulally because if it comes loose it will alow the fan to spin into the radiator. Been there done that 4hours from home 12 hours from wally world, it took me 24 hours to go home take the radiator,fan,fanhub from my parts bus. thow it all in a VW cabrilet, drive back to the bus Tami and I changed everything out, back on the road and was 12 hours late to Disney.

John

[gus]

Dave,

Well, I'm pulling them out now, who is to say it won't happen again thanks to tire jockeys with huge air wrenches? The other studs not stripped are in relatively bad shape as well, I'm replacing all. From now on I do my own lug nut tightening with my little air 1/2" wrench and/or a torque wrench! It was just a matter of time before most of the others were going to be stripped.

Since the hub is Al it is especially important that something be used between the steel stud and the Al to prevent corrosion, this is the reason they were so tight. If I had realized yesterday the hub was Al I would have used a little heat on the hub, it would have made things much easier.

John,

Evidently 4104 hubs were changed to thinner steel later on during '54 or a little after. Believe it or not my hub is Al?? My parts guy tried to tell me this yesterday when we were using his press but I didn't believe him!!

I thought I saw some Al type corrosion on some of the studs we pressed out but thought I was imagining things

My studs are 4 5/8" but later ones are 3.5", all the difference in length is in the splined shoulder. The Al hub must be thicker than the steel. The Al hub is 2' thick where the splined shoulder fits in.

Chopper,

Heating and freezing are excellent ideas and I will do that, especially given the Al hub. Even setting it out in the sun will help.

This job is going to cost me about $500 for parts only and there are no bearings being replaced. I did pay the parts guy for his labor since he spent all afternoon with me at his press.

The two seals alone were $100 and had to be factory ordered. I ordered two extras just in case. I hate to think what it would cost to have it done but I'm never going to do it again!! I'm too old for this stuff!

[johns4104s]

Gus,

I have three 4104,s 2 1960 and one 1957. I also have a 1981 MCI 9, they all have aluminum hubs, the 4104 and MCI 9 are interchangable (thanks to John Vickers letting me know they were interchangable).
I have pulled hubs on the front,rear of both the bus types.I have had REAR lugs shear on the MCI 9. I have changed them out with the hub both on and off the bus.
I am told one reason that the lugs sheared was that the aluminum outer wheel attached to the inner steel wheel, disimular metals, did not have a teflon gasket between the two. I have added the gaskets.

John

[DaveG]

Alu vs. steel. Generally the aluminum hub will be thicker than steel, you are correct.

[gus]

I got one lug bolt almost in today when my jack slipped out of my press and threw stuff all over the shop. Broke a few things so I had to do some welding but am ready to start again tomorrow.

Freezing the lug bolts sure made a big difference. I tried them before and after freezing and the difference was amazing. Tonight I have the hub sitting on top of our space heater and the bolts in the freezer.

If I ever have to do this I'll know next time to heat the Al hub a little, that would have made things much simpler since Al expands so much.

John,

That is very interesting about all the hubs being Al. Also nice to know that the MC9 is usable. Do you know what length bolt the MC9 uses? Do you know why the bolts were changed from 4 5/8" to 3.5" and when it was done?

I assume the hub for the 3.5" bolt is thinner by about one inch but am puzzled as to why? Do you know if the hubs are interchangeable?

I've never seen a sheared lug bolt on a heavy vehicle, that is some force to do that. I don't know how you ever did this on the bus??

Are you back in TX yet?

[gus]

All lug bolts are in, it should be back together tomorrow. I left the hub on the stove all night, it was 80*F this morning when I started pressing the bolts. It cooled off by about bolt 7 so I heated the last holes with a propane torch and they went right in.

I used liberal amounts of antiseize on the bolts for easier sliding in and to coat between the Al hub and steel bolt to help prevent corrosion.

I figure it took about 10 of the 12 tons of capacity of my little press because it was showing the strain! I had to reweld and reinforce the top brace on the press, it bent when I tried to remove the old bolts.

Now that I know the hub is Al, if I ever do this again I'll heat the hub at the bolt boss when I press them out.

The lug bolts I finally got are 5" overall, the extra 3/8" is on the back side. The originals are 4-5/8". Don't see any problem there.

I also replaced the suspension bumper, it was completely shot.

It is a relief to have this job almost over with!!

[gus]

Got the 7/8" nuts on the back of the lug bolts installed today. I estimate they took 300 l-f of torque just to screw back on, they resisted every thread except the first two or three?

These nuts must be tapped for an interference fit because they are not egg shaped like some smaller metal lock nuts. I don't know how I would have ever gotten them on without my 1/2" drive 400 l-f air wrench, don't think my little 1/2" drive 150  l-f air wrench would have budged them.

For sure those things won't vibrate off!!

[johns4104s]

When installing wheels I run the nuts up with my 1/2" earthquake air wrench. Then finish them off with my $65.00 600Lb torque wrench I looked and looked till I found one at that price from a pawn shop) at 450Lbs.

When I have to remove the studs from the hub,and I have removed plenty. I either take the hub of the bus set it up on wood blocks and beat them out with a 5Lb hammer, right Dallas.

When the hub stays on the bus, I have a over sized nut that slips over the lug, then I run the original wheel nut down the lug and with the earthquake it pulls the lug out. I had three sheared on the drive axle in Chicargo. so I used the 5Lb hammer with lots of penetrating oil and beat them out. it took 5 long hours of hard beating.

Now I have all new Lugs on every wheel/I watch them like a hawk/dont let any tire guy run them up tight with a 1000Lb impact. I have the guy run them up tight then i finish them off with my torque wrench.

John

[gus]

John,

I have a 1/2" earthquake air wrench also. I don't think it is capable of over-torquing the nuts.

I'm going to do the same as you, no more 1" air wrenches on my bus.

I also have a big torque wrench which won't fit inside the wheel well. However, it is of no use on the left side since it only works CW?

What I'm trying to do is to find the proper setting on my air wrench (It has 5 positions)and the air pressure necessary to give approximate 400 l-f and just use that from now on. When the nut stops very much turning that seems to be close but I'm going to calibrate it by ear and eyeball tomorrow.

I'm also going to mark the nuts with red paint to see if they move. Even if this results is slightly low torque it is better than wrecking the studs.

Last but not least I'm going to get a torque multiplier. With that thing I can tighten the nuts with a 3/8" torque wrench and about 7 l-f of torque!

I like your idea of the oversize nut to pull a stud out. When you did that how did you get the new one back in?

I would think that beating with a hammer while the hub is still mounted would wreck the bearings?

I found that beating with a hammer on a wooden block mostly made the block bounce around with little stud movement. This is the reason I went to the press. Next time I'll heat the hub at the stud boss now that I know the hub is Al, that should make a big difference. I think with heat I can press them out on my little 12 ton press.

[johns4104s]

Gus,

You tap the lug down to catch the splines then put the washer and nut on and pull them up with the earthquake.

As far as the touque multiplyer(TM). it worked for me to undo the lug nuts that a T-bar and 8ft steel scaffold pole would not break. But the inside drive wheel lug nuts are very difficult to work with the TM.

I use an extension to get me out and away from the inside drive wheel and a jack to support the exrension while I tourque them down.

I too am using a mark on the lug nut to make it easy to see if I have any loose movement.

John