"It has a rebuilt engine"

[thejumpsuitman]

Over the past months, I have looked a countless buses and ads for buses.  Most are older conversions or former Gospel group buses, and of course, almost all of them are said to have a rebuilt engine...

There is a lot of cynicism about that claim, but I have a different view...  Consider this fictional scenario and tell me if it so far fetched.

CASE A:

In 1979, Herman and Henrietta are 61 and 58 respectively.  Their dream of a retirement on the road in a bus conversion.  Henry will retire in 4 years, which will will give him plenty of time to get the conversion done.  

They buy a retired Trailways bus and the first thing Henry does is have the engine rebuilt.  Over the next 4 years, they work on the conversion on weekends

They hit the road in early 1984 to live their dream.  They stay in Florida until early June, then head West, basically spending the summer driving months touring the country and visiting friends and family.  5 months and 8,000 miles later, they are back in Florida for the winter again.  This basically becomes a trend for the next 8 years and they enjoy every minute of it.  

But one day, Herman has a heart attack.  Their son, Robert flies to Florida to be with them and ultimately help drive the bus back home to Ohio.  Herman never fully regains his strength, and Henrietta is terrified to hit the road again like before because of Herman's health.

The bus sits, virtually unused for the next 4 years.  Herman passes away at 77.  The year is 1996.  The bus has 60,000 miles on it since the conversion.

The bus is used very little over the next 10 years.  From time to time, Robert uses it to camp with his family, putting very few miles on it.  The year is 2006.  

Henrietta passes away at the age of 85 and the bus is considered part of the estate.  Since he has 2 sisters, Robert feels it is best to sell it to sell the bus and settle the estate.  All the records and receipts have been lost over the years, but it does have a rebuilt engine "with about 75,000 miles."

The next owner wants to update the conversion and have it repainted, but can't seem to come up with the money or the time.  He finally decides to sell it 3 years later.  The year is 2009.

Doesn't that sound reasonable?

[thejumpsuitman]

Here's another one for you...

CASE B:

It is 1995.  Ed and Sarah are in their late 50's.  Ed is a successful business owner.  His dream is to do a first class conversion, sell the house and hit the road full-time!  Problem is, That's not Sarah's dream.

He finishes his project by 1998, (rebuilt engine and all) and is ready to put the house on the market...  That's when he discovers the will of iron he never knew Sarah had.  NO WAY!  They are not selling the house "to go wandering aimlessly!"  This is one battle Ed will not win.  They use the coach as an RV, and put a mere 30,000 miles on it.

They sell it in 2005, and it is sold again in 2009.  Just "50,000 miles"

[Busted Knuckle]

Yup, sure enough! I can assure you that is the way it is ALWAYS  !

I'm not trying to be cynical, but the claims of "just rebuilt engine" are different than "engine rebuilt with just 75,000 miles, that we have kept accurate mileage records on even though the rebuild receipts got lost!"

Now if you don't believe it, we can find you some prime ocean view real estate in AZ cheap!

Shoot buy Clifford's Eagle and he may even throw in his AZ swamp land with it!
  BK 

Seriously not try'n to bust yer chops, and yer scenarios are possible, but unlikely! (at any rate without it really being a recent rebuild, it should not be advertised as such!) Things go bad just sitting as they do by being properly run & maintained! FWIW!

[thejumpsuitman]

Here's another one for you...  Very probable around here.

CASE C:

Some good folks from down in Dixie decide to start a traveling Southern Gospel group.  They buy a tired old $1,500 bus and do a very basic conversion.  They get sponsored by the West Dingleberry Baptist Church who has a member who owns a truck repair shop.  He is willing to donate the labor if they can pay for the engine rebuild kit.  Several yard sales and bake sales later, the group hits the road.  They use the bus for 5 years, putting 70,000 mile on the undocumented rebuilt engine.

[rv_safetyman]

There must be a question in these posts that I missed

Yes, you see a ton of ads that say the engine is rebuilt.  

First of all, there is a huge variation in what constitutes a rebuild.  Next, is the situation where the owner who bought the bus and was told it was rebuilt, and is just "passing on" the information.  Lastly, the next big issue is when it was rebuilt and how it was treated since the rebuild.  Folks look at numbers like 500k life and think if their engine was rebuilt 100K ago, it is a fresh rebuild.

As far as I am concerned, unless I could see the documentation (and compare engine serial number against the ticket), I would put almost no value in the "rebuilt engine" declaration.

Jim

[thejumpsuitman]

Believe me, I am as cynical as anyone.  I owned a car lot for a while and dealt with the lowest of the low class.  But I have also looked at a bunch of buses with such sad stories. 

Like one in Florida who had the engine rebuilt first, it has 25 hours on it...  Then he dropped dead. 

A guy here in NC spent $6,000 on an in-frame rebulid, then had 2 heart attacks and got pneumonia.

Another guy in Florida who was almost done the conversion and lost his wife.

A guy in Arkansas who lost his leg to diabetes halfway through the conversion. 

There are so many stories like that that I am certainly willing to listen before dismissing the claim of a "rebuilt engine"

There are plenty of scumbag liars out there, but I am sure there are a lot of legitimate stories also.

After all, if you see an older conversion for sale, say 25-30 years old, what do you suppose their first order of business was when that project was started back then? 

And as far as documentation goes, If there are many people out there like me, I would actually be surprised to find comprehensive documentation very often.  Especially after that period of time.
I'd lose my head if it wasn't attached.

[loosenut]

Not sure what your asking so I may be completely off base.

If your asking, is it possible for a bus to only have 60,000 miles on a 30 year rebuild?  It is easily possible.  It is frequently reported that 5,000 miles per year is average usage.  As you pointed out taking time out for converting and for life unfold it is easily possible.

If you asking, is the engine good with only 60,000 miles on the rebuild?  That is a big, 'who knows'.  During my search I noticed many an ads that stated, "rebuilt detroit engines" with less than 100,000 total miles on the bus.  In some cases, operator error led to the rebuild and in others it was an over statement of work done. 

The correct response is to have the engine looked at by a trustworthy, knowledgeable mechanic.  You never know.  However, when I faced a similar situation I purchased without inspection.  The fever was in full bloom.

Mike

[philiptompkjns]

Either you've heard some good stories from sellers or you've got a busy imagination.
I am in the same boat  as you  right now, I just look for stuff like cold starts, exhaust smoke/color, blow by from the oil fill, coolant color/condition.

I your own judgement should hold way more weight than what the owner says the previous owner said about the bus, ect.

[bevans6]

Mine had a rebuilt engine.  What that turned out to mean is that it had a oil pressure problem, PO took it to a shop for diagnosis and they decided to diagnose it by rolling in new bearings...   then, 5 years and 25K miles later, the blower bearings failed, it got a reman blower and the rack run, and jake solenoids fixed.  Then I got it, it still had low oil pressure but the owner said "it's always like that, it's fine with 30 psi hot".  I have no documentation of anything other than that, so my belief is that it's still on the original liners and pistons, it has a new bottom end, and the heads have never been off.  Not my idea of a rebuilt engine, for sure...

The low oil pressure issue turned out to be a missing restrictor in the oil line to the alternator.  Disconnect and plug the oil line to the alternator, which is run from the same manifold as the oil pressure gauge, and the oil pressure went up to 60 PSI.  I put in an restrictor and the OP is now 45 - 50 hot at speed.

brian

[thejumpsuitman]

I think you hit it on the head, Mike.  What was the quality of the rebuild and how has the engine been maintained or treated since?  I don't really question that most buses do indeed have rebuilt engines... Rebuilt when and to what extend is the real question.  Exaggeration is another issue.  Throw some forgetfulness and selective memory into the mix as well, and you really have to be careful.  

Of course it's better to get documentation.  All I am saying is that I don't think you should throw out the baby with the bathwater.  Wouldn't you say most Greyhounds or Trailways buses still in existence would have to have had a rebuild at some point?

[cody]

My thoughts on this are pretty simple, put half your trust in your gut feeling and the other half in the opinion of a good bus mechanic, I've always felt that every bus that hit the market had a fresh rebuild in it and thought it was nice to know that, but when I give a trusted mechanic a couple of hundred to take his time while crawling around under a bus, around the engine of the bus, to be looking at the brakes and the air lines and what ever his heart chooses to look at and then for him to take an oil sample and send it out, tells me much more than the faulty memory of the guy that is selling his prized completely redone like new coach.  I know that each bus has a story to tell and most have several, your future bus will be no different but my take is that before you take the word of the seller, take the word of YOUR mechanic on it.  If it's the bus you want, with the right engine and tranny, and set up the way you want and if you got the right price and the thumbs up from your mechanic, I'll have a cup of coffee waiting for you at the next rally when you roll in with it.

[thejumpsuitman]

My thoughts on this are pretty simple, put half your trust in your gut feeling and the other half in the opinion of a good bus mechanic, I've always felt that every bus that hit the market had a fresh rebuild in it and thought it was nice to know that, but when I give a trusted mechanic a couple of hundred to take his time while crawling around under a bus, around the engine of the bus, to be looking at the brakes and the air lines and what ever his heart chooses to look at and then for him to take an oil sample and send it out, tells me much more than the faulty memory of the guy that is selling his prized completely redone like new coach.  I know that each bus has a story to tell and most have several, your future bus will be no different but my take is that before you take the word of the seller, take the word of YOUR mechanic on it.  If it's the bus you want, with the right engine and tranny, and set up the way you want and if you got the right price and the thumbs up from your mechanic, I'll have a cup of coffee waiting for you at the next rally when you roll in with it.

I would say that is probably the best outlook to have on the subject.

[kyle4501]

What cody said.

It's past is not as important as the condition it is in NOW.

I have seen engines smoking before 30k miles. I've also seen engines with over 300k that don't smoke or use oil. Heck, I've seen brand new rebuilds that you couldn't bar over.
Some can do a great job rebuilding one, but I don't think you'd want one I did the work on - even if it was fresh.  



The stories may be entertaining & even plausible, but I wouldn't base a purchase decision on them. I'd use them as a guide to where to look first. If ALL the physical evidence backs it up, then it is a good story- otherwise it is merely a fairy tale distraction.

[thejumpsuitman]

What cody said.

It's past is not as important as the condition it is in NOW.

I have seen engines smoking before 30k miles. I've also seen engines with over 300k that don't smoke or use oil. Heck, I've seen brand new rebuilds that you couldn't bar over.
Some can do a great job rebuilding one, but I don't think you'd want one I did the work on - even if it was fresh.  



The stories may be entertaining & even plausible, but I wouldn't base a purchase decision on them. I'd use them as a guide to where to look first. If ALL the physical evidence backs it up, then it is a good story- otherwise it is merely a fairy tale distraction.

I certainly agree.  My point was that I don't really understand the eye rolling whenever it comes up that an engine has been rebuilt on a bus for sale.  Honestly, I would expect just about every bus on the market to have had some kind of rebuild during it's second life.

On a side note...

How much value would you place on a factory rebuild by Detroit Diesel?  I was looking at a bus that had the rebuild spec tags hanging from the engine.  They reset the odometer at that time, and it shows 75,000 now.  What I mean is how much more value would that have than one done at a regular shop?

[bevans6]

My feeling is that after your example of 75K miles, the fact that it had a rebuild is almost irrelevant.  All that matters after that time and distance is what condition is it in now?  Maybe if it had 5K miles would where it was rebuilt be a really important thing.

Brian