Cat C-13 retrofit to my Crown bus ??

[boogiethecat]

I'm thinking of upgrading my old Cummins 220 to a newer electronic engine so  I can put in an autoshift and also haul butt up grades.
Don Fairchild and I have been discussing laying a Cat C-13 on it's side and cramming it in...

any comments?

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Hi Boogie,

That's a small challange fou You.... I'm sure you will come up with a way to do it.

My first thought is the oil pan and sump. How does that work on it's side?

Good Luck
Nick-

PS, if ya get er done, we could call you the Royal Crown....

[gfcgfc1]

Hello all ,Boogiethecat , I totally empathize with the goal. I have experience with heavy equipment and otr trucks. Anything can be done. I'd like to make two points: first) I like Caterpillar as a powerplant ;  C-13 seems like a WHOLE BUNCH for a crown.     
second) Are you SURE REALLY SURE you want an electronic unit? REALLY SURE??? Please take time and really consider an electronic versus a mechanical unit.While I am super appreciative of the benefits that electronic control provide I have FIRST hand experience that electronic units are frequently difficult to problem solve trouble shoot EVEN WITH the Scantool , trouble codes, Flow Charts ETC etc etc...Mechanicals are much more freindly on the operator and or the service tech / mechanic / parts replacer.Good Luck I am rooting for you just trying to share some experience not telling to do it or not to do it    Thanks ,GFC

[johns4104s]

GFC,

I will be back in the Phoenix area in november. Maybe we can get together?

John

[gfcgfc1]

Hello , John I will be in Phoenix in November.I will bo looking forward to visiting.Good luck be safe , Thank you ,GFC

[boogiethecat]

GFC I understand. Yes the electronic units can be somewhat hasslesome. But many trucks and vehicles run with them and Cat is pretty reliable stuff.  It's interesting that the cat engine is only 20 cubic inches different from the cummins 220, 600 pounds lighter and a whole lot more powerful.  And the cat is almost a foot shorter than the 220 so there'd be room for an autoshift.  If you remember a few years back I almost stuck an autoshift in and modified the 220 to talk to it, but I decided that was too iffy a project.   I changed the rear axle (the whole thing) out to a newer rockwell a few years back so there's no problem there,   The autoshift is the main reason I'd like to go electronic, as well as the california smog regulations that will make me change engines anyway in 10 years...

[NJT5047]

Well, you axed!? 
I would wonder whether the oil drainbacks from the head and ancilliary returns would get oil back to the oil pan without building up in the valve cover?   And since returning oil has a cooling component, would spot heating be an issue since the oil would be returning on only the low side of the engine and whatever additional returns are created to get the oil back into the pan?     
If Cat builds a lay-down marine version of the engine, that would answer the questions and be a source for oil pan and oil pump pickup. 
Same concerns with coolant.  Lots of thought would have to go into adding whatever bleed points necessary to avoid air buildup in non-standard high places. 
The more vertical the better so it would seem.  For sure the engine would run OK layed down. 
FWIW, I'd prefer the electronic engine over a mechanical unit.   Modern electronic engines, with good wiring, are more dependable than mechanical engines with governors, linkage, pumps and whatever. 
A Cat 13 is a BIG engine.  It's wide to the extreme too with the turbo mounted on the side.  If you haven't bought an engine, consider what Cummins, Detroit, Cat, and Navistar builds for low-profile marine applications and you may find an engine that's (almost) a bolt-in.   Or, at least it is built to lay down.   Detroit built  6/71 lay-downs in matched sets.   
There are plenty of much smaller framed engines available such as 400/500 HP Cummins engines.  These engines are found mated to electroshift transmissions.   
If you have never driven an electroshift in a bus, you oughta try it before you buy it.  They can seem a little slow.   A real automatic would offer a more simple install and give similar mileage.   Something removed from a large RV would give you a nice matched powertrain and 400 to 500 factory HP.   The smaller the overall engine design, the less 'tilting' will be neccesary.     
Have you considered a V8?  Like a Mack ?  They may be too tall, but with the turbo moved to the side and oil pan mods, they have a much lower profile when compared to a big 6.   For more S&Gs, Detroit built very low profile,  high HP 8V71Ts for military tank and marine applications.  These engines would probably be impossible to keep cool in a bus.   
That's about all I can think of right now.  Post lots of pix when you do this project.  It'll be interesting to follow! 
Still planning on BurningMan before I'm wheelchair bound!  And definitely before I go blind!
JR 

[Bob Belter]

Ahoy, Boogie,

For a 'flop-over' engine, my main concern would be for coolant air traps causing hot spots. You may have to look the engine over very carefully and add some tapped in air bleeds to the block. 
The oil drains / sump pick-ups should be no problem that you cannot solve.
The physical size and weight of the Cummins ISM makes it a pretty good candidate.

I'd like to install an Autoshift on my Eagle -01, but my (was new, now 50,000 mile) Cummins M-11 will not tolerate it.  The later Cummins ISM is compatible, with an SAE J-1939 plug to connect to the Autoshift transmission.  I considered swapping the pieces off a blown ISM to my 'perfect' engine, to make it a 'sort-of' ISM , but it turns out that the pistons are different, and other bits and pieces are too.  I may have created an undefined 'odd ball' engine with undefined problems, so I'll not do it.

Enjoy   /s/   Bob

[Bob Belter]

Ahoy, Boogie,

I forgot to mention that for electronic engines --  like my M-11 -- A concern is the electronic 'stuff'.  I have been afraid of a computer --ECM -- failure.  The different specific electronic modules are not that costly, and the computer 'built in test' diagnostic routine tells you what is wrong, so you can fix it. 

If the computer itself goes,  BRING $$$$$!!!!  Not for me anymore.  This summer, at Wholesale Truck Parts in Portland OR, and for $700.00, I got an ECM for my M-11.  Not the same CPL (350hp, not 400hp) as my M-11, but I have installed it, and driven the bus for ~~50 miles.  Also, programming an ECM at Cummins West is cheap.  My original ECM was 330 hp, and to go to 400 hp was $75.00.  Go and ask a DD-60 guy what he paid someone to even look at his computer???

In short, I don't see an electonic engine as a costly or difficult critter to live with.

Enjoy   /s  Bob 

[Iceni John]

FYI, Cummins N14 and QSK19-R engines power several classes of British passenger trains.   These engines are underfloor, driving through Voith 3-speed hydraulic transmissions (for the slower 100MPH units) or electric transmissions (for the 125MPH units).   This would indicate that Cummins still has expertise in horizontal engines, and it may be possible to adapt a suitable donor upright engine with the appropriate parts.   The variety of transmissions used also may indicate that different bellhousings are made for different transmissions.   Maybe Cummins can provide you with further information.

John, still a recovering trainaholic

[TomC]

I would seriously consider using the Cummins N14 since it is an electronic engine, is nearly the same as the NTC engines that are already designed as a lay down engine.  Then, you won't be trying to redesign the wheel by trying to do what hasn't been done-mainly lay down a C12 or C13 (same basic block-C12 is a whole bunch more reliable then the twin turbo C13).  The Cummins N14 was available up to 525hp and 1850lb/ft torque.  I don't think you'd need much more power then that.  If you do use an automated transmission, make sure you use the Autoshift that still uses a clutch for much better control when maneuvering.  The Ultrashift, with the automatic clutch, are made for trucks mainly going down the road with few miles in town. 
Personally-I would just install a HT740 and be done with it.  Then you'd really have a hot rod that would out accelerate most anything from a stop.  The Autoshift is going to be painfully slow in accelerating from the stop light, but does perform well on the highway.  Good Luck, TomC

[luvrbus]

FWIW Cat engines laid on the side need to have a 12 degree tilt with the turbo up 


good luck

[HB of CJ]

Yep, like already said, Cummins did/does make at least the N14 in a flat version, plus maybe also the 600 hp larger model.  Are used world wide in mining, marine and railroad applications.  The 600 horse was about $50 grand!!  Ouch!!

Didn't Detroit also make the Series 60 in marine and mining applications with the mill laying on its side?  Only slightly remember.  Pittsburg Fuel Injection Inc will happly build up your/their Big Cam 2 Cummins to any power level you can $afford$.

Also believe the 855 Cummins Big Cam 4 model can be had with electronic controls (?) and the Crown specific stuff like cooling, pans, rocker box oil returns, Jakes, etc, will bolt on. (?)  I was going to build up a BC 2 for my 10-wheeler Crown.

Unhapplillly I sold my Crown.  Looking for another actually.  If anyone could do it, it would be you.  Yep again, kinda begs the question...why not just a good HT 740 (driveline length) and be done with it?  Anyway....CROWNS FOREVER!!  HB of CJ

[TomC]

Only US engines I know that were designed from the factory as lay down engines, were the Detroit 6-71, the Cummins NH 220 and 262 turbo, the Cummins NTC 855 block, and the KTA 1150 engine, up to 750hp (big engine).  Good Luck, TomC

[luvrbus]

The C-18 Cat is laid on the side but has to have a 12 degree tilt up my brothers boat has twin C-18's installed by Mustang Equipment in in Houston Tx.
TomC you can add Cat's 3306 and 3304 to your list they would lay flat on the sides.
Cat has always laid the engines over in their under ground mining equipment


good luck