Furnace and generator in one bay

[Chaz]

Ok guys,
  I've been doing some figuring........... I know, I know, I better be careful. 
  What I have come up with is that I am very cramped and limited on generator space where I want to put it - drivers side of the old air conditioning bay.
  There is a stock "half-wall"/bulkhead seperating the generator I now have and my Xantrex inverter and 8 battery bank. The inverter is on the passenger side of the half-wall and my batteries are in a sealed box vented outside.
  My thoughts are that I can move the inverter into the living area of the coach right inside the door to the left under the passenger. (should be a pretty cool fit) Then if I cut out the half-wall that the inverter was mounted to, that would leave me 46" of depth in that bay from the door to the battery box and 36" wide. Now, I think I have a little breathing room for a decent generator.
  Then I got thinking that that would probably be a good spot to put a furnace when I get one also. I may have room for it but I need to do a little investigating. That is where YOU come in! 
  I'm curious as to how much heat I would need from a furnace so I can start looking at them and find out the sizes to see if they will fit.
  As far as how my coach is configured,basically, it is the standard floor plan with walls and ceiling layered with foil sided styrofoam board insulation but single pane stock windows. How many btu's should I look for?? Any suggestions on models and/or brands???
  Let me know what ya think!!
   Thanx a bunch!!
      Chaz

[Hartley]

I wouldn't place a possible source of heat and smoke in the only entrance
and fire exit you have. ( Not even near the door! ).

Besides when the fan comes on in the Inverter You won't be able to hear the TV!
Keep it isolated away from the crew compartment.

I just had to say that....

[Tenor]

Hey Chaz,
I learned a few things this weekend.  I have 2 suburban, 19,500 btu furnaces in my 40ft MCI.  One under the couch in the living area, and one under a bunk that shares a wall with the master bedroom.  This one sends air into both the bunk room and the rear bedroom.  This weekend, the forward furnace would keep the whole bus at 70 degrees while the outside temp was around 50.  It kicked on very little.  My ceiling and walls (where there are no windows) are spray foamed about 2 inches or less thick.  Below the window line is the original fiberglass.  All of my windows are single pane.  We do have a blackout curtain for the windshield and day/night shades on the side windows.  We do not have doors between the rooms, just curtains.  I found this quite comfortable. 

Now, could you tell us when and where you really plan to use the bus?  Are you headed into the snow, or will you call it quits this winter or head south?  I think a 30k BTU furnace would keep you covered in most situations, but I have heard that the bigger furnaces really like their propane.  I like having 2 furnaces for the sake of redundancy and flexibility.  I'm going to try some winter camping this year, (maybe in my driveway  ) just to see how well the heat works and how often it runs.  I'll make a nice post when I do. 

Let us know Chaz!

[NJT 5573]

The furnace needs clean air. Mine is also in the bay with the generator and if they both are used togather the carbon monoxide alarm will not shut up. It is real sensitive and doesn't take much to keep it going off.

The 40k btu Suburban was a gift but I don't like it. It uses way to much propane.

When I get the chance I will have 2 furnaces as small as I can find.

The bus is real tight and needs little heat to be warm. We use the Little Buddy single sguare model most of the time with a large tank adapter and on low heat. Many nights even when its close to freezing out the kids will get to hot and turn it off. The Little Buddy will also run constantly about 5 days on a barbecue size propane bottle.

The Little Buddy with the single heat unit is 1000% clean. No vent. The CO detector sits a foot above it and it never makes a peep.

[pvcces]

Hi, Chaz.

I have looked at the specs on a bunch of these units. They have been rated by input BTU and their efficiency has been reated at 75%, even the skinny units. What is different is the amount of fan power needed to make the efficiency rating.

A portable electric heater will produce right at 5,000 BTU, so if you are looking at a 20,000 BTU furnace, and it has typical efficiency, you will get about three portable heaters worth of heat.

I believe that two skinny units will be the best choice, because one of them will likely hold your coach down to around freezing and two will mean it will warm up fairly quickly when you come to a cold coach.

Then, when one gives trouble, you just leave the other run until you fix the first one. And two skinny units will take little more room than than a single standard size unit. If you happen to get into a cold patch, you should still be in pretty good shape.

Good luck.

Tom Caffrey

[TomC]

Chaz-make sure you reposition the inverter indoors.  The inverter should be treated like a stereo-not subjected to high heat and not any moisture.  The inverter should stay below 90 degrees (of which you can't do in the storage bay) for proper operation. 
I don't know what kind of furnace you're going to use, but one of the many advantages to a propane furnace is to mount it inside the living area (they all have separate combustion chambers vented to the outside) to free up under storage area.  I have a single 35,000BTU Atwood propane furnace mounted next to my stove so that the propane lines are as short as possible-with the chassis mounted 20 gal propane tank directly underneath-and it is more then enough on my 40ft'r with large windows.  The furnace has had no maintenance issues in 15 years of being in use-other then making sure it is clean-can't beat that.  I believe in simplicity-and (I know I'll get flack for this) I don't believe a hydronic heating system falls under the category of being simple.  Good Luck, TomC

[Chaz]

Great info guys!! Very, very useful.

Dave,
  I guess I need to look into your precautions. But I have never heard the fan on my inverter so I was not aware that they were so loud. I have only ever heard it sit there and hum a little. I guess I need to look into it a little further but placing it there would be a very handy spot.

Tenor,
  Ya know, I REALLY like the idea of two smaller ones. That just seems to be a good way to go. I could easily heat the end of the bus that I want to at the time. But I would have to look into the added "everything", including mounting, that comes with it. But that would seem easier than ducting.
  One of the things I was thinking of was also going electric and just using electric heaters. Then I would concentrate on a "really good" effecient generator. I'm sure there are other issues to consider doing that but it's a thought. I also have 8, deep cycle 6v batteries in a bank so it might be a viable option.
OR............. maybe one small furnace up front and a small ceramic or two to pick up the slack and use in the bedroom. Hmmmmmmm...... What to do, what to do.......
As far as where I will be using my bus, I live in So. Indiana so we "can" hit 0. But I doubt very seriously I will use it when it's anywhere close to that cold. My plan/dream/hope/lust/want is to get the helloutta here for a couple three months in the winter and go to Sedona or someplace south. But I do hate being cold so I want at least a decent heating system. Sorry I can't be more specific.

NJT,
  The bay I would put it in has X-metal covering one door and I could trick out the other one to get a cross flow of fresh air if need be. Thanx for the tip!
Also, that Little Buddy seems pretty interesting!! I'll look into it. It might be the ticket for a back up heater instead of electric. Thanx.

Tom, (pvcces)
  Thanx. That electric comparison helps me compare using electric or propane. I seems, on the surface, that it could be a viable option to consider going the "better generator/ electric heat" option. I guess I need to crunch some numbers now. Not my strong suit. 

TomC,
  Sounds like Atwood is a good brand. I know they are very popular. Low maintenance is a huge plus.
  I am familiar with mounting them inside the coach and out the outside wall like my water heater. I was just trying th keep the outside skin of the bus a little cleaner. That bay already has an X-metal door I thought I could take advantage of that. But it may not be a good idea.
  Thanx for more info on the inverter. If I do that, I may have to d a little venting of that also. Maybe even a muffin fan. As I said earlier, I have never heard the fan on it run. I guess it could be too loud.

  Thanx again guys!! Great info to get me started looking.
  Oh, is there a furnace/hot water heater unit out there that would be any good? I don't want to to do radiant hydronic, just water heating,  because I don't have as much ceiling height as I would like now. And I would only put it under the floor which would take up my ceiling height. I do have my whole house set up with hydronic and I LOVE it, but unless I raise the roof, I think I would have to pass. Otherwise, I'd do it in a minute.

Thanx
Chaz

[Hartley]

Winter - Eeeekkkk... Gotta start planning for that...

I use a ceramic electric heater in the bedroom, a 35,000 btu Suburban in the
kitchen under a counter that does a fair job for the living area. And when needed
either a Big Buddy type LP heater or an Oil filled electric just to maintain temps
if it gets really cold.

Last winter we saw 7 degree nights and wind chills of -9 and although there
were some chilly times our hodge-podge kept things livable.

I get so much heat loss in the front of the bus that ice was still forming on the window frames and around the front door. Those big windshields just spew heat out and my door seals suck.... Hmmm..

I fudged on the insulation due to budget and time. Now I am sorry I did but right now I can't fix it. I did what I needed to survive 40 degree nights of Florida not single digit days long Tennessee winter weather.

Maybe in the next lifetime things will be better...

Dave...

[TomC]

Chaz- even though I have an Atwood furnace in my bus now, I'm going to use a Suburban on my truck.  With the Atwood, you have to cut out a hole big enough on the side of the bus to install the furnace from outside-then you have the door to cover it up.  With the Suburban, you can mount the furnace from within the bus then they have just a small two hole venting plate that needs to be mounted from the exterior.  Much less obtrusive.  Check out the Suburban furnaces.  Good Luck, TomC

[Lin]

There are online calculators available that could be useful.  Here's one as an example:

http://www.hearth.com/calc/btucalc.html

[cody]

In our Skanee house we've used ventless heaters for years to provide the heat and they have worked perfectly and we have detectors that never were bothered by them so I got a ventless heater for the bus, same company just a shade smaller. the ones we use in the house has 3 pads, this one has 2 and I'm hoping it will do a good job, we've got all the detectors and they never got bothered by our big buddy heater and this is the same type and only set us back 79 bucks. I'm not even going to try to winter in the bus up here, -45F is too cold for me and 390 inches of snow is way too much for me to endure in the bus, last winter we stayed in my daughters house, we may try to head south again this year, not sure yet.   http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200332737_200332737     this is the heater we got, it was on sale for 79 bucks so we got 2 of them with a free shipping promotion at the time.

[Chaz]

Thanx TomC,
  That is good to know as I don't really care for the big holes cut in the side....unless absolutely necessary. That's why I was looking at putting it in the generator bay. I would imagine if it can vented out a small (er) hole, I could make it happen thru the x-metal screen that covers almost the whole door.

  Thanx for the link Lin! I did it but it seemed to show me needing a bit less btu's than I would have thought. But it's something to go on.

Cody,
  as far as your winters go up there  .......well......... I'm glad they are yours!  Personally I wouldn't move 10' North.  And I'm with ya on those kinds of heaters. I have a vent free fire place in my house and really like it. I also use the CO2 detectors. Good thing too as mine went off in the bus from the NEIGHBORS generator last weekend. (dirtbags)

  Still curious tho, as to how "ineffecient" it might be to go with electric and then just get maybe a "better", as it were, generator. And the main reason would be just so I wouldn't have to carry another fuel. Or... do they have heaters that burn diesel? Just a thought.

Thanx,
   Chaz

[NJT 5573]

Chaz,

I have a 10 gallon suburban water heater. It's propane with 110V if needed. I have never hooked up the 110V and only use the propane side. It works great.

I have been out 2 weeks and showered up to 17 people a day and not used a whole barbecue size bottle of propane in that time. It's probably the most efficient thing on the bus. If I had free electricity perhaps I could use the 110V, but personally even then I think the 110V load could be put to better use. I probably would not spend the extra money for 110V again.

The Suburban water heater is all automatic, push the on switch and forget about it.

Prices vary, a friend just found the best deal somewhere in Texas and paid shipping. He bought the 12 gallon model. 10 gets me by fine, keeps the kids from using all the water up real fast. Same idea with the smaller Shurflow pump. It is very adequate for the bus use, no reason to pump all the water into the grey tank to fast with my gang and the flow is still decent.

[JackConrad]

I'm not even going to try to winter in the bus up here, -45F is too cold for me and 390 inches of snow is way too much for me to endure in the bus, last winter we stayed in my daughters house, we may try to head south again this year, not sure yet.

Hey Cody,
   Ya'll know you got a place to stay in Fl.  Jack

[cody]

I appreciate that jack and yep, that was the best winter I've ever experienced, warm and sunny every day, and good people, I woke up wondering if I had died and gone to heaven whenever I looked out at the palm trees and the birds singing in january, I'd like to do that again, at least I'm hoping too.  Last winter here I got so crippled up with the cold that I ached every day, my tylonal bill was almost as high as our heating bill, if I can swing it, I want to get out of the cold and snow, it's beautiful up here in the summers buit pretty brutal in the winters for an old guy like me, libby still tacks the life insurance policy on the cork board each time she hands me a snow shovel lol.