not getting fuel

[frontman]

Wondering if anyone knew of a Good, Honest mechanic near Eau Claire WI, that knows his way around a 6v92.

I got my bus home 2 weeks ago and I finally went to move it to the place that I plan on doing all the work.  I couldn't get it started.   We primed the filter and it would run until the filter emptied.   I narrowed the problem down to it not getting fuel and then narrowed down where the blockage was.  We used a compressor and shot the clog out of the line, the line is clear now, but I still can't get it to run.  It won't even run on the fuel in the filter now.

[NJT 5573]

You may as well learn how to prime it yourself. Sooner or later your gonna run it out of fuel anyway, so why not go buy a cheap pressure vessel (Bug sprayer at the hardware store and a couple fittings) and put some fuel in it and do it yourself. Takes about 5 minutes.

Is it DDEC? They are a little harder for some reason.

[RickB]

Frontman,

The only folks I know are in Bloomington (C&J Coach) or Central Truck and diesel in Ham Lake/ East Bethel. There is a guy named Steve in Eau Claire who has owned several buses that I met a few years back that you may be able to google or ask around at local shops they may know him. He could probably help you get it running again to get it into the cities to have one of the above shops give it a once over.

If you haven't got it running since your last post email me and I'll try and find some time to come over and help you as well. I was just in Eau Claire a few weeks back for Tim Mcgraw it is about an hour and a half from me.

Let me know...

Rick

[frontman]

Thanks Rick
I know Steve K, He is also in a band in Eau Claire.  We got it running and we are going after the rust now

[gm4106]

NTJ 5573  Is right, and I my self would like to know how. I have a idea how to do this, but never seen it done, or even look to see what I would need or where to place the end of the sprayer. However this might be like riding a bicycle for most of the people here, but just remember some people want to learn how, and what place would be the the best place to learn,  we have the best right here.  Maybe someone on the board with a little time could show us what we would need, where too attach the bug sprayer and how to prime the engine. I know all buses are different a good basic idea with some pictures would be great.
Thanks
Bob

[frontman]

I actually used a 50 dollar electric fuel pump and hooked it up in line right before the second filter.  It worked like a charm.

[Van]

ATTA boy Chad!

[Van]

Bob good point! I plan on having my engine swap documented on video,will have to bring a helper to shoot it cause trying to work and film becomes difficult at times . mabe we can have a dedicated thread for video 

[trucktramp]

If you are in a jam and have run the injectors dry, you can always start it with either.  It's not pretty but it will work.  Only use enough to get the injectors to pick up the fuel from the filters and remember that you are NOT getting any of the lubricant properties of the fuel so it causes a little wear but it is done in truck shops all of the time.

Van
I like the idea of the video links... sort of like a bus nut u-tube.  Sometimes it is easier to understand how something is done if you can see it along with the written explanation.

[BG6]

If you are in a jam and have run the injectors dry, you can always start it with either.  It's not pretty but it will work.  Only use enough to get the injectors to pick up the fuel from the filters and remember that you are NOT getting any of the lubricant properties of the fuel so it causes a little wear but it is done in truck shops all of the time.

AND remember that you are flirting with RUNAWAY!!!

If you have never used ether in a Diesel engine, this is best done with one person working the starter, the other working the spray can. 

1)  Shoot about 1/4-second worth into the intake, then hit AND HOLD the starter.  In a couple of seconds, you should hear at least one cylinder pick up (it will sound like a bump, then you're back to just the starter cranking).  If you get SEVERAL cylinders, go to Step 3

2)   Wait for it to drop off again, then shoot 1/2 second, and wait to see what you get.  If you get a couple of bumps, then give it 3/4 of a second, then try again, 

3)   Once you have several cylinders picking up, the engine will sound almost as if it's running.  Whatever the amount of ether you are giving it is just about right, so shoot that same amount again WHILE THEY ARE STARTING TO DROP OFF (don't wait until they have dropped off all the way).  You should now get the whole engine for a brief moment, so keep it running by giving it short squirts.  Let it start to drop off after each time, and listen for the engine to pick up on its own -- that tells you that it's getting fuel.

NEVER NEVER NEVER hold down the sprayer when the engine is turning!  You are putting an EXPLOSIVE VAPOR into an engine which has no means of preventing runaway, and it can take several seconds for the engine to use up all of the ether . . .during which time it will rev faster and faster, possibly to the point of damage or destruction!

One old tractor expert I knew used to shoot WD-40 into the engine for 5 seconds (while hitting the starter) before using ether, as a pre-lubricant.  If he didn't get the engine running properly after 20 seconds of cranking, he would shoot more WD in, then let it sit for a minute before trying ether again.  If he couldn't get it after 4 tries, he would let the starter cool for 10 minutes before trying again.

However, I have found the best solution to this problem is to just not let the fuel system get empty! 

[trucktramp]

BG6, your directions are good and what I would recommend to use.  I have seen guys start engines by spraying a steady stream into the intake and when the engine does start it usually revs up quickly and stays high since there is no limiter on the amount of "fuel" that it is getting.  My kid saw his boss blow the breather off a Mack one time by using too much either.  He said that it was very impressive.

[RTS/Daytona]

First - here's the usual flow of Fuel in our buses

        A - From the Fuel tank pickup to the "check valve" - The check valve is there to prevent fuel from running back to the tank on shutdown
             "check valves can be anywhere between the pickup and the first filter - the usually places are the bulhead - or at the first filter

        B - the first filter in called the "PRIMARY" filter - that will be the one closet "in line" with the fuel tank - now it may not be the one that is phyicially closest 
            to the Fuel tank - just look at the lines coming from the fuel tank and follow it to the PRIMARY FILTER - now - there will also be a return fuel line going
           back to the fuel tank - if you follow that path that will lead back to the engine and not a filter - so go follow the OTHER fuel line

        C - now that you found the "PRIMARY Filter - most will have a THIRD PORT on the filter housing with a plug in it - the plugs are USUALLY 1/4" inch pipe
             thread (commonly refered to as 1/4 NPT - national pipe tread) - don't be fooled the 1/4 refers to the APPROX inside diameter of that pipe - this is where
             you would install a 1/4 " pipe thread to BARBED (Lowes / Home depot / Ace) fitting to attach the hose and of the garden sprayer full of fuel

        D - from the primary filter - next is the FUEL pump - followd by the SECONDARY fuel filter - to the engine (sometimes left and right side split off
       
        E - The overflow fuel (fuel not used by the injectors - about 90% is not used) will return back to the fuel tank thru a very important "RESTRICTOR VALVE"
             The restritor is there to maintaaain fuel pressure  (which is about low of 15 psi at idle to a regulated  (by the fuel pump pressure relief spring) to 50-60
             psi  at 1200 rpms and above - note the fuel pressure at the input side of the fuel pump and primary filter is about 6" to 12" of vacuum that is the sucking
             power of the fuel pump  - 6" indicates a clean filter - 12" could indicated a clogged filter

FIll the filter (primary and secondary ) with fuel - fill the garden sprayer with fuel - remove the spray nozzle from the end of the sprayer hose -
attach the garden sprayer to the barbed fitting on the primary filter and GENTLY pump at least 1/2 of the garden sprayers fuel into the engine -

IF a DETROIT DIESEL FUEL PUMP BECOMES AIR BOUND (no FUEL IN THE PUMP) THEY WILL NOT SUCK FUEL - this is why you need to push fuel into the primary - thru the pump and into the seconrady and up to the engine to do a PROPER job of PRIMING YOUR DETROIT ENGINE


Petre RTS/daytona






 

[bevans6]

only as a FWIW, WD-40 no longer has a flammable propellant, so spraying it in an engine will only make it repel water, not start.  Another good trick lost to progress...

Brian

[NJT 5573]

Pretty funny guys!

I start 2 stroke Detroit's alot with either when they lose their prime. It's not recommended by the manufacturer though, but as far as I know I have never hurt one.

One can of either with a steady spray stream will get you about 1200 RPM, but it won't suck the air out, it will just use up all the either and leave you with no either and no prime.

Two cans sprayed at the same time, one can in each hand works every time, but you either need help, or if you are desperate and have or can make a rear start button by hotwiring the starter solenoid, then you can put a big rock on the throttle pedal or remove the return spring or jam it wide open, you will win and get running.

The 2 can Detroit trick is to spray both cans into the intake at the same time until the engine RPM hits the governor. The throttle must be wide open. Roll the engine over with the starter, run it on 1 can and then add the second can at the same time. Once it hits the governor, its primed. If you have 2 intakes, you need to tape over one of them.

I try not to do this to a cold engine, but if I have to, I will run it on one can to make sure the oil is flowing, then go for it.

Detroit emphatically says not to do this, but it has worked for me when I have been in the middle of nowhere and needed to get running in the worst way. I never leave the yard with a 2 stroke without my 2 cans of either.

After doing this many times I just decided this is one tough engine. I have walked into truck shops over the years and observed the Detroit that would not run for anything that they were ready to tear down. When I started it for them in a couple of minutes, they would just shake their heads and smile.

One of my trucker buddies out of Toronto showed me that trick in a snow bank in Winnipeg about 40 years ago and I was about to freeze to death. If its not an emergency, obviously there are better ways to prime the boat anchor, but it never hurts to know the either trick if your in a tight spot.

I know this sounds a little harsh to some of you more sensitive types, but what can you expect from the official  lug nut and stud killer??? You don't have to worry about it running away either, just take the big rock off the throttle or have your buddy pull his foot when it hits the governor!!! Every thing will be fine, trust me... OH, if you have to do this on DDEC, you must remove the fuel sensor wire from the secondary filter or it won't let the injectors have any fuel. Been there done that!!!

[bobofthenorth]

Since we're on the subject of fuel and no one has mentioned it, my personal choice for priming is to pressurize the fuel tank.  I carry a circle cut out of a truck inner tube around the valve stem.  Its about a 12" circle.  If I have lost prime I put that circle over the filler tube on the tank and fasten it down with a gear clamp.  Then I loosen the fitting on the out side of the secondary filter and pressurize the tank until fuel drips out that fitting.  Tighten the fitting and start the engine.  I'm sure there's fuel plumbing configurations that won't work with that treatment but I haven't met them yet. 

I'm not a big fan of ether but I will use it to avoid extended cranking.  I don't want to run an engine on it however and I will go to great lengths to avoid doing that.