Diesel Antifreeze

[kyle4501]

Hey Jim,
Another highly contentious subject is the use of never seize on lug nuts.
Let's not forget the impact wrench vs torque wrench debate either!  


Good luck with educating the unwilling  

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him THINK !  

You know what they say about winning an internet argument - it's like winning in the special Olympics. . . . . you still are what you were.

[junkman42]

I have used the green stuff for years and My dentist still charges Me to fix cavities!  What gives anyway, should I shift to a different color or just use salt and tap water?  The shadow wants to know!  John L

[belfert]

Jim's article on antifreeze can be downloaded in the Sept 2009 issue of Bus Conversions magazine for only $5.

[NewbeeMC9]

Jim's article on antifreeze can be downloaded in the Sept 2009 issue of Bus Conversions magazine for only $5.

ARTICLE!!!!!!!


Like Hugh's mag,  I just get it for the pictures

[bryanhes]

I guess I am having a problem with letting this go. Especially with the comments that continued to insult my intelligence. And some by folks that don't even have a bus running down the road. If you have something that is related to what the conversation is and something to back up what you are talking about then by all means speak up. But if it is no more than a comment about leading horses to water or a smart @$$ comment then you should probably keep it to yourself. This is in part why people get ticked off.

Because I did not write an article does not mean my research is any less correct than the next guy. Just different results.

Let me state that my only question was in regards to the 8V-71 antifreeze requirement.

I did speak with two different Detroit dealers, techs, service managers and a bus company that has been in business for over 30 years running 8V-71 & 92's. They run 15 buses currently.
I even looked at a torn down 8V-71 that was being rebuilt and had the mechanic that has been working on 8V-71's since the 60's in Vietnam on tanks and still does for United Engines to this day. He is regarded as the most knowledgeable 8V-71 tech in the entire company.

This is what every single one told me including the bus company.
A good off the shelf Sams Club Green Antifreeze can be run in them with no problem because they are a dry sleeve!!

If you have ever seen an 8V-71 torn down you would see that you have about 1/2" of meat between the cylinder and sleeve. It was even explained to me that the only 71's that had a cavitation problem were from running Pond water in them. He had only seen a couple over the last 40 years.
And if you have HOT SPOTS in the cylinder liner and need to hone it out it is NOT from cavitation.It is from improper fit of the sleeve to begin with not allowing the heat to dissipate evenly. Cavitation can not be honed out. How do you hone out a hole in a cylinder wall?

So in my research I think I will take the words of wisdom from the guys that do this every day for a living and have seen first hand on an 8V-71 what works and what does not. They all said keep your antifreeze clean and changed out every five years or so and it will be fine. With over 100 years of combined experience of the techs, service managers and fleet owners. I think my antifreeze will be fine.

Jim,
In keeping this fair to you I was not questioning your research. I did miss your initial post about what some have told you about dry sleeve engines, so I apologise for continuing on with you about the 8V-71. I only wanted what pertained to my 8V-71. If you are running a series 60 or one that does not have the large cylinder walls and is not a dry sleeve as a 71 then you should follow the recommendations that Jim has posted and that was confirmed by the techs and service managers as well.

As to anyone else that has commented about this questioning my intelligence and ability to learn! When you have the experience to know what you are talking about on this subject, (say 20-30-40 yrs. and not your couple years of owning a bus) maybe that is when you should speak up because the other comments don't help anyone!

Bryan

[John316]

When you have the experience to know what you are talking about on this subject, (say 20-30-40 yrs. and not your couple years of owning a bus) maybe that is when you should speak up because the other comments don't help anyone!

Bryan

Well, I guess that rules me out....  In that case, I should be silent.

God bless,

John

[Zeroclearance]

Jim, I think that you "could" divide the coolant selection process into different engine models.  

It's not just certain Detroit engines that are more prone.   In the late 90's Cat had failures with liners sinking with the 3406E..   Texaco and CAT campaigned with the "RED" coolant.   Warranties were denied on the spot if there was "green" coolant.   At the same time the "main" liner plant had a fire on the production line.   Mahle stepped in and took over the production.   The new liners were found to be cracking due to over-hardening in the heat treatment process.   Can you imagine the trucker that just had to shell out his dollars for repairs only to come back and do it all over again.    There was alot of finger pointing going on.    

I am running a late model year 2002 Series 60 and I do not want the liner corrosion/erosion and will run the Detroit spec coolant.   I also have a 6V92 in my MCI.   I run the same factory coolant in both engines..  

I think folks with 8V71 can run whatever you want.    

[luvrbus]

Bryan, you should leave it alone some what of you just posted is BS about the hot spots on a 71 series.
I dealt with United for years some good some bad they rebuilt a engine for me and it made it to Memorial drive from their shop before they had to call Williams wrecker.
I saw that happen to Roy Clarks Eagle also they rebuilt but he made it to Riverside dr before Williams had to pick him up.
I don't put a lot of faith in those guys but I do like the parts guy from New York.
I am not telling you not to use the green stuff just use the right one or you will pay for it later.
And FWIW the best 2 stroke guy I found in that part of the world is in the little town of Coweta Ok he put United to shame


good luck

[kyle4501]

Bryan,
To pull a quote from Stripes - "lighten up, Francis" - without some clowning around there'd be no color & then it'd be too boring to read. Ya can't read much after you've nodded off.  

My idea of research involves controlled data, otherwise, how do you know what really caused the results.  
Asking bar patrons how many drinks is OK before turning in your car keys will generate different data than if you asked EMS responders, or police, or lawyers. . . .  

Quite a bit heard at dealerships & service facilities is hearsay which renders all of it questionable. That is not to say it is all bad - just you have to look into it further & get confirmation from different sources (not like sources as in other dealerships & service centers). The service manual & factory tech support are different sources than the dealer.
(just like responses to posts here - some make sense & others should be ignored.)  

You said cavitation can't happen in a 71 series. I maintain that while it isn't likely, it could happen.
While hot spots are usually caused by poor fits - cavitation can also cause it in dry liners. But short of having the exact measurements at that exact spot from when the liner was installed & comparing those numbers with an inspection of the water side of the hole - it is hard to know for certain.


One of my manuals (for a PD4501 with an 8V71) says to run clean water in the summer & when freezing is a concern to add alcohol. It also had instructions for when to use the filter & when to bypass it.

Education & experience are what you make of it.
Time spent often means little more than the opportunity was there. . .
The degree itself isn't necessarily worth the paper it's printed on.

I hope you have many many happy & trouble free miles down the road in your coach.

[bryanhes]

Clifford,

I was not basing this on United Engines more so the guy that I have been talking to there has worked on these since before the Vietnam era. And the man that has owned the bus charter company for 30 years. Neither one were selling me anything just letting me pick their brain and giving me their experience with these engines. You have obviously seen many of these torn down. I saw a bare block on Monday for the first time. I would think it would take a miserable amount of time and no maintenance of the cooling system at all to have the action of cavitation make it through the side of the cylinder wall (which appears to be about 1/2"-5/8" thick) to make a hole. I guess anything is possible.

Kyle,

I did not say it can't happen. I said:

It was even explained to me that the only 71's that had a cavitation problem were from running Pond water in them. He had only seen a couple over the last 40 years.

I am not bothered by many things and enjoy being a smart @$$ sometimes. But I have a problem taking someones comments on a subject when that person has no more knowledge than I do. I did what I feel was due diligence researching this for my engine.

They did not have all these additives years ago when Greyhound, Trailways etc.. were running these down the road for millions of miles. So why do I have to run it now? The ASTM Standard was not published until Oct 1, 2008. The Coolant Selection from Detroit was not published from what I can find until 2001. I guess it makes sense to me that if it was required on my engine Detroit would have recommended it and changed the formulation of antifreeze in the 60's or 70's. If anyone has anything dating back into the 70's mentioning special antifreeze for an 8V-71 please post it. It makes the most sense to me that cavitation addressing additives more so arose from problems with the thinner sleeves and more horsepower of newer engines. As with most things that have changed in the manufacturing process so has metal thickness and quality of steel products. I do understand corrosion is corrosion. The only thing that I think would differentiate the rate at which it happens between the two types of engines (wet/dry) is the types of metals and thickness contributing to the rate of breakdown, whether it is with straight water, regular old Ethylene Glycol or something with additives.

I know my bus has had regular Ethylene Glycol antifreeze in it since 1970 with the Perry filter on it and from service records changed out about every 5-6 years. I have pulled lines and seen no scale. On a 98 degree day with the coach air running it never gets over 180-190. It is the original radiator as well.

If I have missed something about a certain kind of antifreeze from circa. 1970 please let me know. Otherwise I will continue with what has worked for the last 40 years on my bus.

Bryan

[RickB]

Bryan

Some of us as you pointed out, have owned a bus less than 10 years.

But we have been on this bus blog long enough to know "hot button" issues when we see them. It doesn't have nearly as much to do with you as it does with the subject. There are 3-5 subjects that most of us here just decide are not worth the effort of discussing. You, my friend, whether you are aware of it or not, are in one right now. This is not the first heated discussion about antifreeze and it probably won't be the last.


Bryan, in truth nobody here really gives a rip if you run battery acid in your radiator because we live in a free country. You asked a question and Jim answered it. Then you disagreed with him and he disagreed with you. He isn't trying to pass a law that makes you change your antifreeze. End of story.

Meanwhile we're all sitting back going "Here we go again" somebody's gonna say a bunch of stuff they don't mean and then they're gonna leave and I hope that isn't what happens with you.

But be careful here, when your words turn from disagreeing with, to disrespecting the guys that have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to the majority of people here that they care about us and that they know what they're talking about well, then you're on your own.Those folks are highly valuable and highly valued by the majority of us here.

I'm sorry if you took my words to be inflammatory but I was speaking about the unresolvable subject not you. Go and look at the archives of arguments about oil viscosity, antifreeze and politics and religion and see if you don't see a pattern.

I've been where you are right now,heck alot of us have been where you are right now.
Stop take a breath, climb down from the ledge and realize we just disagree... that's all nothing more
Rick

[kyle4501]

"thinner sleeves and more horsepower of newer engines"

That right there goes a long way to explain why the newer engines require more from the antifreeze.

In an ideal world, engines are designed based on what is available. Sometimes, the design isn't good enough for existing coolants or oils - this is determined by studying failures & sometimes remedied by an improved coolant or oil. If that special coolant or oil enables the engine to last a reasonable time, it becomes part of the specification & the manufacturer takes that into consideration with later designs.

Sometimes marketing & politics get involved & nothing makes any sense anymore.    That may explain why an engine designed in the 30's (with a proven track record) would get a new specification for coolant 70+ years later.


A funny thing about corrosion is that the higher stressed a piece of metal is, the faster it corrodes.

[Jriddle]

I would think it would take a miserable amount of time and no maintenance of the cooling system at all to have the action of cavitation make it through the side of the cylinder wall (which appears to be about 1/2"-5/8" thick) to make a hole. I guess anything is possible.

I have seen new liners in Kawasaki L/115 loader go due to cavitation within one year. We learned the lesson about PH control.

John

[rv_safetyman]

Well, things have settled down and I thought I would write a special note to Bryan.

Bryan, please understand that some of those comments were directed towards other posters as well.  I did not want to have the thread get personal, but when the subject is debated, that often happens.

My frustration was not that you (and others) were disputing me (I  always encourage CONSTRUCTIVE corrections to my thought process), it just seemed that you were wanting to argue the point without really looking at the data that I based my comments on.  I always try to present sources that I base my comments on.  All I ask is the posters respond with sources so that we can understand where they are coming from.    

You have done just that.  You ultimately did quite a bit of research since this thread started.  One of your posts basically supported the information I found as well.  What you posted agreed with the OEM position that HD diesel antifreeze should be used on engines with wet sleeves.  So we agree on that.  What was in contention was whether diesel antifreeze was needed in dry sleeve engines.  You have found information that suggests it is not required.  

What folks are uptight about is the poster who just wants to prove that black is white.  We have all seen them and most of us do not tolerate them well.  For a while, it looked to me that you might be going down that road and I lost it.  For example when you confused corrosion with erosion and talked about a gas engine, it looked argumentative to me.  Turns out that you were indeed trying to understand the subject and find an answer to your specific engine.

Now with all that said, I am not sure that the $3-4 difference is worth the possible risk.  However, you have done the RESEARCH that allows you to make an informed decision.  

So, as I said earlier, we will add this to the list of the "OH NO NOT THAT SUBJECT AGAIN" and take a chill pill before we even think about becoming involved

Jim

[Jriddle]

Well

The good news is now each person that reads this will think about what to use and make there own informed decision.


Thanks all

John