Air Starter???!!!

[Eric]

Thanks for reading! I just found out that the starter on my 6v92ta is air!!??? I've never heard of such a thing can you guys give me some info? I'm picking my bus up next tuesday 6-16 and i would like to know if this is something to be worried about or if there are anythings i need to be looking for!  

Thanks Again!

Oh yeah sorry My bus is an '85 Neoplan Cityliner so i've been told!

[JackConrad]

    An air starter is kinda like a modified big air wrench. It has a big air tank in the rear bay that must be full of compressed air to operate the starter. If the bus is hard starting and you use up the air pressure, the tank will neeed to be refilled with an air compressor.  Changing to an electric starter is not to difficult, if you decide to do that.  Jack
PS: expect a "different" sound when you hit that start switch (something about waking the dead?)

[luvrbus]

Must be a NJ Transit the Eagles had air starters I don't know if the MCI's had it or not.               good luck

[sweeney153]

NJ Transit MCIs had air starters.

I drove out of the Warwick Garage for a while (upstate NY but was NJT at that time) It was a small garage, only about 20 busses, all parked out side at night .In winter the mechanics would start and warm up the busses prior to the morning runs, starting at 4:30 am The "gentleman" next door objected to the idling busses and called the police to complain several times. The company came down with a ruling that any fines would be paid by the mechanic in question. One guy decided to get even. For three hours 1:30am to 4:30am he walked from bus to bus starting each in turn. Then he shut them all off. Then he started them again. Over and over.

Not only woke the dead, but kept them up all night
.

[DaveG]

Air starters do not require the batteries that electric starters do, so I wouldn't be surprised if the coach had half as many batteries as 'normal' electric start coaches. And, they perform well in cold weather, where electric starters want all the amperage that the batteries can give (sorta) but since it is so damn cold out the batteries are less than satisfactory.

An unusual sound is an understatement. Good to have a backup air supply/compressor. Other than the noise, it might not be worth changing....you be the judge!

[mikelutestanski]

Hello:
   Air starters have a few quirks. One of them is they require constant use. That is why transit buses usually have them where they will be started every day.
    I had one in an 86 neoplan with a Cummins m11.   If you left it for a week or more the starter would not work properly and some tinkering was inevitable. If your air charge had any moisture in it and it always did in the northeast then the starter had to be taken out and cleaned and reoiled.   Lubrication in the air line was a requirement.   
     Using the bus as a conversion type RV  is going to require more maintenance. Changing over to an electrical starter is not difficult. The hardest part is to make sure the right size wire is installed to power the starter. usually these buses have large alternators for the AC systems and that wire can be extended to the starter.   However each case is different and needs to be evaluated seperately.
    This is my opinion FWIW.
     Regards and happy bussin
     Mike

[buswarrior]

Big Transit ran air starters for long enough to have the fleet of 1700 buses all air starters.

Nice strong spin in any temperature. Some northern Ontario truck fleets were big users of air starters.

As noted, only ran one battery in the 12 volt buses.

Trouble is if it doesn't start right away, it takes a lot longer to "jump start" an air bus than an electric one, and shutting it down before the air system returns everything to full is problematic.

Big Transit started going back to electric starters some years ago, and has retrofitted all the 24 volt buses to electric, since they already have two batteries anyway.

The northern truck fleets, and the new coaches - there are many fuel fired coolant furnaces installed now, engine block and oil heaters installed at the factory, the next step is to run a battery charger.
Sounds like the world has gone back to electric starters.

That's all that gets plugged in for the new highway coaches. Set the timer on the Webasto/Proheat/Espar for a 20 to 40 minute burn, the battery charger keeps the 24 volts nice and strong and away you go in the AM.

As for your's, if it works, and you have a compressor available to top the tank off if it doesn't, it doesn't have to be high on your list to deal with, you'll have lots of other things that need repair/upgrade that aren't working at all!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Tim Strommen]

Ahh, the noise....

    I was recently reminded about how loud those things are while I was sitting outside at my local coffee shop.  The local transit agency has a bus stop right next to the shop and in the evening the drivers shut down their engines and go in for a quick cup-a-joe and a chat (only if no-one is on-board, and they close the doors).  I had mistakenly taken up residence in a chair right at the back side of the bus (Gillig) where the air starter was - and I didn't read the mischievous grim on the driver's face when he popped out from the shop to continue his route.

It's like having an air ratchet right next to your ear (think dentist drill only about 10-times louder).  I almost walked away with a brown set of jeans (and not from dumping my coffee in my lap either ).


I replaced a blown starter (24V on a 6V-92TA) a few years back for a few hundred bucks.  The control of an electric starter is just about as simple as it gets (high-power switch or a low-power switch plus high power relay, should be enough to kick on the solenoid actuator/contactor).

If you like the idea of "no electricity required", but don't like the idea of having to use a bike pump for 12 hours on the side of the road to re-start your rig after it leaks down...  there are spring starters available that use a hand crank and start lever which will start our big diesels (8V-71/6V-92 are big for our rigs, but they only usually work as aux power units in large commercial boats - spring starters can serve as a "black-start" device for emergency power generation).

One such example I'm not affiliated with: Simms SZH2 High Power starter for 6-cyl @ 2L/Cyl (12Liter engines)

-Tim

[Chopper Scott]

Brown set of jeans!!! On a few occasions I have had an air starter catch me by surprise and every time the offending driver had this stupid smirk on his face!!! other than that I really can't comment on them. You can get a boost off of another truck however with an airhose so all is not lost in case you run out of air before she fires. Brown set of jeans!!!   Later

[Eric]

Wow I'm not too worried about the noise and I love to tinker! I am seriously considering designing ...for lack of better terms an aux. Gen as well as compressor unit so i always have it. The principle seems pretty simple for these starters then and with a little maint. shouldn't ever need to be really Replaced. so it seems anyway!

Thanks For the info and "Brown Jeans" lol!!

[RJ]

Ekhedge -

Are you planning on using your Neoplan like an RV?  Visiting various National Parks and other types of campgrounds?

If so, I guarantee you that there will be a LOT of unhappy campers in whatever parks you decided to stay in if you fire that thing up in the morning to get an early start on the day.  It might even get you an invitation "not to come back" from the management!!

Worse yet, it might prompt a lot more "No Overnight Parking" postings in WallyWorlds across the country!

And just FYI, the huge air tank downstairs to power the starter really only has enough air for two, maybe three, tries to get it going.  After that, it's refill time.

At the transit property I worked at, the shop had to install several dozen quick-disconnect fittings on the bus canopy support poles in order to get the fleet going in the morning.  Not to mention a HUGE air compressor just to supply the air being pumped into 15 - 20 buses at a time.

My suggestion is that one of the first projects you take on with your new toy is changing it over to an electric start system.

However, should you decide you'd prefer alienating your campground neighbors with starter noise, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.  Portable 120VAC on-board air compressors are utilized by a lot of busnut folk to air up the coach quietly to minimize "damn diesels, anyway".  That is, until you hit the start button.  Then all bets are off!

FWIW & HTH. . .

[TomC]

All this talk of how loud an air starter is-is now a moot point.  New generation air starters have been redesigned with a "muffler" system on the exhaust side so that when the starter is activated, all you hear is a mild rush of air-no screaming impact wrench sound.  Myself being of the type that doesn't want to either be bothered by or to bother other people, I would upgrade to the new generation of quiet air starters and keep everyone happy you come in contact with.  This is commonly called being considerate.  Good Luck, TomC

[RJ]

Tom -

Based on the vintage ('85) of his coach, chances are very good that it's not one of the newer muffled starters.

And from my perspective, the new muffled starters are STILL louder than electric.

To each his own. . .

[TomC]

After looking at the Ingersoll Rand site, you can add a muffler to the air starter to get it quieter.  Granted it will be more noisy then the electric, but the muffler does quiet it quite a bit. Good Luck, TomC

[belfert]

It seems to me that money would be better spent to replace the air starter with an electric than spending money to replace or muffle an air starter.  Wouldn't all the coaches use air starters if they were better than electric.

I think there is a far better chance of either using your generator to charge your starting batteries or finding someone else to charge your batteries than finding a source of air.  Sure, you can buy an electric compressor to use with your generator, but that is more money spent.

Nothing wrong with keeping an existing air starter, but I wouldn't spend any more money on it.  Just my opinion.