So, do I need tanks???

[gus]

A while back I accidentally discovered that the Search worked much better when I searched from my Profile page?? I have no idea why this is so and haven't checked it recently.

Using this method I got about eight times as many references as I did from the other pages.

[kyle4501]

. . . . I used a stainless tank one time for fresh water and could never get the metal taste out of the water.       good luck

Was the ss tank treated for use as a fresh water tank?

Might be a good reason to use a plastic tank for fresh & put it on top of the black & grey.
But, we prefer to carry our drinking water in separate containers & use the water in the fresh holding tank for cleaning & flushing.




BTW, if you are concerned about failures on the road, I'd stick with the simplest sturdy devices available. Some of the newer high tech stuff might be dandy & more efficient, but the added complexity makes field repairs difficult if not impossible.

For example, my TT has a cheap toilet that works & can easily be used when there is no electricity or running water, a simple glass of water can suffice. 

As for the backup generator, I'd spend more time considering my power useage (like those who live off the grid) & reduce my needs so loss of power is only an inconvenience, not a show stopper.

[Len Silva]

If you choose to put tanks under the bed (or anywhere in the living space), you might want to use a plastic liner to protect against leaks.  I think pond liner would work well for this.

[WEC4104]

John:

I have long been a firm believer in redundancy and back-up systems, but have to admit you are taking it a lot father than I probably would.

TOILET - I understand that an intestinal bug share by a party of 10 can make for an interesting ordeal. (How big did you say you are making the black water tank? )  But rather than installing a second in the shower room I think I'd be inclined to take along one of the stowable self-contained jobs like people place in their pop-up trailer.  That would not take up space in the bus, and could be stowed or even used, in the trailer.

GENERATOR - A second generator seems like overkill unless you have some side need I don't know about. I'd buy a top quality diesel generator, keep a supply of spare parts on hand.  For the cost and weight of the second generator, I would think a large bank of batteries and more inverter capacity would get more use.

WATER PUMP - This is one item where I encourage the installation of the second one.  Depending where it is installed, they are easy to repair or swap out, but.....   There is no doubt that it will fail during a rainstorm, at night, while you are trying to take a shower and head to an important engagement. They can run together to double your GPM capability, but if you regularly run both together, make sure you check to see that one doesn't fail without you finding out abouit it.  perhaps some sort of A, B, A+B switch and a game plan to regularly switch them over?

[JackConrad]

WATER PUMP - This is one item where I encourage the installation of the second one.  Depending where it is installed, they are easy to repair or swap out, but.....   There is no doubt that it will fail during a rainstorm, at night, while you are trying to take a shower and head to an important engagement. They can run together to double your GPM capability, but if you regularly run both together, make sure you check to see that one doesn't fail without you finding out about it.  perhaps some sort of A, B, A+B switch and a game plan to regularly switch them over?

We did that. We installed 2 pumps connected in parallel. We get more volume when showering. We always left both pumps on UNTIL, we lost water pressure. A quick check showed that apparently 1 pump had failed sometime prior and then the other pump failed. We have separate switches for the pumps in our panel above the refrigerator. We now run pump number 1, turn on number 2 when showering, turn off number 1 after showering. Next time we turn on number 1 before showering and turn off number 2 after showering. we just continue this sequence of alternating pumps every time we shower.  Jack

[JohnEd]

John,

Many have their engine cooling system service the generator cooling system.  Putting a conventional thermo controlled rad fan on the engine rad takes care of the heat when the engine is shut down.  The water pump on the generator takes care of moving the coolant around.  This is NOT breaking new ground as far as ideas are concerned as many of the highline Pres and such have Incorporated this design.....I'm told.  Additionally, the Wabasto is plumbed into the engine circuit so the Wab can PreHeat the engine prior to starting.  Cold engine starts account for a disproportional amt of engine wear.  Also lets the Wabesto system be heated by engine while underway.

You absolutely NEED a propane "tankless water heater"  called an "on demand" heater.  There is no tank system that you could fit in a bus, or truck for that matter, that will sat ser 10 people on a close sched.

You will never be able to fit sufficient tanks to sat ser 10 people.  Weight, safety and space will limit you.  Actually, I think you need TWO buses.  However!  Comma!  Do not opt for a single 200 gal tank.  Use 3 or 4 and sandwiched them in there so they take full advantage of whatever space you utilize.  Put the last 50 gal on a separate valve.  Actually you should be able to isolate each tank to allow repair and min the impact of any leak that develops.  This would also let you remove a tank to get back some storage if your needs subside.  Also would min replacement costs.

Install a "drinking only" tank with a capacity of 30 gal.  Then you can pump water into your tank from a clean stream or sistern to sustain your travels.  Keep a bottle of Clorox on board to prevent the "sorta clean" water from growing on ya.

The toilet gets mounted "OVER" the black tank and the drop can have no more than a 45 degree slope.  I rather know that that is a bunch of crap and that you can sustain a much larger angle.  NOW, if your shower is located next to the toilet, then they could both drop down their own separate 3 inch pipes.  OR, they could "Y" together for a single pipe.  In the 70's there was a major RV brand that had co located all their toilets, shower and sinks in the same space that had water proof walls and a undersink cabnet.  Worked very well and was exceptionally space efficient.  It was explained to me that toilets are WATERPROOF.  PLANNING!

Install both of your water pumps in parallel and keep each powered.  If one fails the check valve will allow you to have full pressure till you can change out the defective pump.  These systems are designed to service the needs of a "NORMAL" RV demands system.  You ain't normal, Buddy.  You are going to be confronted with a person taking a shower and somebody flushing a toilet and another drawing water from the kit sink.  You can design this all you want but if there is a possibility of cheating the cold water and dumping a surge of HOT on a shower'er....that will happen eventually.  If it cheats the hot, then the soul in the shower will get a chill and this will become a common engineered prank.  Not 10 adults, right?  Having two pumps on line will prevent that.   Also, that cute little 3/8 inch line will not work for you. You will need 1/2 at least to handle the potential flow.  The pumps have 1/2 inch connections.  Use the pump that has connections that are "O" ring sealed and are secured with a clip.

Keep a separate  Black and Grey system.  With a 50 foot length of hose you can dump your Grey almost anywhere.  In Ca. it is used for lawn and garden water and that meets code...or must.  Add NO deodorants or treatments to that water or the black either.  If you incorporate a "macerator" pump you will be able to dump your black water into any sewer within 50 feet and also pump black or grey "uphill".

Black capacity is 1/4 of the fresh capacity.  Grey is 100 percent of fresh.  Seems to be a rule of thumb that is adjusted to needs/reality.  Being able and willing to dump your grey in the bushes will stretch your stay.  Even at my house.  Did you know that soap is considered a garden water plus as it augments the soils ability to absorb water quicker and deeper?   So I am told.


If you mount a black or grey tank OVER a fresh tank, you can heat the fresh water to avoid freezing and also heat the waste tank by conduction.  You are going into to cold country eventually. right?  n'other subject.

Things to think about,

John

[John316]

Wow guys. This is great.

NJT5733, Thanks. First off, I wasn't really clear. We are going to put this stuff in our rearmost bay. I also forgot to mention that we have to install our Oasis (instant hot water system) somewhere too. Thanks for the idea on building plywood mock ups first. That could save a lot of grief .

Gus, thanks for the tip.

Kyle, good point on keeping things simple. My motto KISS  .

Len, I agree we do need something to make sure that the water doesn't leak everywhere if the tank fails.

Wec4104, thanks for the idea on the toilet, we will look into it. On the generator, we have a 20kw EPS screamer (hence why we need to build a quiet box ). Also we have a bank of four 8d batteries, and have 8k of inverting power. We will also be adding another bank of batteries soon (we will be stacking them on top of our current batteries so it won't take any extra room).

Jack, thanks for the tip.

JohnEd, thank you so much for the post. Man, I love all of the info. Interesting about the cooling system. We are going to be getting a hot water on demand system (Oasis). It also preheats the engine, and harness the heat from the engine, while the engine is running. I like the multiple small tanks. We might even put a smaller tank under the bed. Interesting thought on the pumps, and water sizes. Also we had thought about putting a macerator on the dump. If we did though, we would want to be able to "gravity" dump to. That way the macerator would be an "option".

Thanks a lot!!!!

God bless,

John

[kyle4501]

If engine cooling is marginal, you won't be able to run the genset while under way IF the genset shares the radiator with the main engine. . . . 

A co worker builds 500 gal tanks for his father-in-law's buses (he is on his second conversion). Weight isn't a problem when full, but he doesn't make a habit out of keeping them full either, just good to have when needed.   

If you have 10 people in your bus, you'd better also have 2 toilets. Otherwise, get used to lots of dirty underwear. 

[BG6]

How often do you want to stop to dump,

"STOP" to dump . . ?

[NewbeeMC9]

If you use RV type toilet with ball valve and put directly them over the black tank  (recommend)

I recommend putting them on a pedestal inside the bus so you can make the tank taller in the bay.  you don't need as much head room sitting down and boys need it closer to splash less when standing up.  Make sure smaller ones can stand on the pedestal if needed.  But anyhoo maximize your bay space by getting the tanks as close to the bottom as of the floor as possible.
don't forget about venting the tanks to the roof and space for the plumbing in the bay to do that and the dump plumbing.


now another thought,  has any body ever tried to use a water bed for fresh water?  it could be filled up with air as water is used or a matteress on to of it that pads you if it is empty.

I know they make soft tanks for the back of trucks

If you have RV type couch that that makes bed, there is a lot of wasted space under/behind that could be utilized with a tank.


don't forget to keep the engine hatches not only accessible but usable.


good luck and keep us posted with your unique situation and how you work it out

[WEC4104]

now another thought,  has any body ever tried to use a water bed for fresh water?  it could be filled up with air as water is used or a matteress on to of it that pads you if it is empty.

Many years ago, I owned a waterbed (and had excellent night's sleep on it).  The filling procedure required that you remove all the air from it.  If you did not remove the air bubbles, the bed would make a noticeable sloshing noise everytime you rolled over.  ... very annoying.      In fact, you had to go back and re-burp the mattress several days after the inital fill, once the air dissolved in the water during the fill had collected into new bubble pockets.  So unless technology of these beds has changed, you would not want to add air to compensate for a partially drained mattress.

It would also be important to check whether the plastics used in the mattress are suitable for potable water, and/or whether they might impart a residual taste. 

[kyle4501]

So, just use the noisy mattress for the kids . . . 

[WEC4104]

Here is a side thought on the waterbed concept, however.  Let's say a 200 gallon waterbed, was built from potable water materials, and placed in the bedroom.  Down in the bays, there was also a 250 gallon (or more) fresh water tank.   Before heading out on a trip, both were filled.   

After several days of using the water in the tank and sleeping on the water bed, your water in the tank is nearly empty.   Using a built in connection between the two, the bed is completely drained into the fresh water tank (gravity). 

With the waterbed mattress empty, one of the new high quality inflatable air mattresses is place over top.  The air mattress, which took up minimal storage space until needed, is then used for the remainder of the trip. 

Just playing with ideas here, with thoughts to maximize water capacity.  Of course the REAL challenge to all of this is "How do you secure the weight of waterbed so that it would be safe, even in an accident?" 

[JohnEd]

You have no realistic way to "contain and restrain" a full water bed.  In a tight corner or under braking it would "leave" the confines of a typical bed frame.  I think that this is an inordinately poor idea although I can see where it might spark consideration.....at first blush.  In a water bed the height of the bed would raise the center of gravity of the bus and as a rule of thumb you want to keep that low.  From the smell of my water when I drained my bed you would not want to shower with the stuff till you were at least a week ripe.  Just from the management angle this idea sours for me.

I know I have seen a lot of S&S with a HUGE tank under the bed.  100 gal or more.  Now what did we say that would weigh?  There is no realistic way to restrain that much weight to prevent it becoming a weighty missle.  You might survive a sudden stop into the ditch/bank of a medium strip but the bed going out the front would certainly kill everyone.  As well, mount your tanks against a front bulkhead of the compartment for the same reasons...travel.  Ever see how stout the enclosure for the refer is?  It weighs a hundred pounds or so and can't be fully anchored to the floor alone unless you lay it on its side, soooo.

BG6.....Thanks for that.  I think I peed a little.

John

John

[kyle4501]

One solution to prevent a water tank from becoming a missile during a collision is to construct it such that the container fails before it moves so the mass of water has nothing to contain it.

Amazing, we have some who worry about a tank of water in the rear of the bus that ain't likely to make it very far - too many things to get past . . .  when others have bar stools & glass topped tables just sitting on the floor right behind the driver . . . .


But I gotta ask, if the wreck was bad enough to worry about the water bed coming loose & making it all the way to the front of the bus, do you think there was enough left for an open casket before the water bed hit?



Another thing, the bed is over the engine so it is gonna get warm, do you really want all that thermal mass right under you when you're trying to cool the bus down for sleeping?


BTW, a 500 gal tank = 7' long x 4' tall x 2.4' wide