8V92 Won't Start

[wvanative]

Boy BK, you can sure take the fun out of good laugh. come on now and let us in on that silly little thing you experience with your bus. You know my Doctor said I should aways start the day off with a good laugh. And you would be adding to collective knowledge of the bus community.

WVaNative

[Sammy]

Rob, I need pictures, 4th digit and last 8 digits of your VIN to provide anymore help.
That will let me know what you have. Too much contradicting info right now. Don't want to steer you in wrong direction.
If DDEC engine, might be just a tripped breaker for the igntion circuit to ECM - 8amp.
That could be in battery compartment or in engine compartment electrical box.
IF it's not DDEC, that's another story......
Make sure your rear run and rear start switches are in correct position too.

[Lin]

I notice that this very active thread went dead after BK's cryptic post referring to a secret solution.  Aside from being curious and thinking that knowledge of the cure may be useful to others in the future, I believe that earnest participants in seeking the solution have something of a right to know.  What was it?

[Busted Knuckle]

Don't ask me I been sitting by the phone for days waiting to hear it ring!

But I can tell you that from the new description of the governor box, throttle lever, shut down cylinder, and no DDEC unit there I can BET MY SETRA it ain't a DDEC!

Now then with all that said we had a bus that had a fresh re-manned  engine in it that ALWAYS fired before a full revolution of the engine. But one day I came up on a driver cranking and cranking it. SO I asked what he was doing and he said "trying to get this thing to start, I can tell it wants too but it just won't do it!"
So first thing I did was made him go up to the front and check the switches and such. Then I tried starting it from the rear. That's when I noticed that even with NO AIR the stop cylinder was extended and it wasn't allowing it to get any fuel! So I went in the shop and grabbed a small hammer, a screw driver, and a 3/8" wrench. I was going to take the screws holding the cylinder out and remove the cylinder, (most of the time the screw heads are "screwed up" and have to be broken off, which is where the hammer comes in handy along with the screw driver). But for some reason I tapped the cylinder with the hammer and could tell it was in a tight bind, not pressurized (duh no air!), but "stuck". So I took the screw driver and put it against the shut down lever and tapped it with the hammer and "walla the cylinder released the so did the lever!"
This time I barely touched the rear start switch and VRRRRROOOOOOM just like it should! SO I figured that is what happened to Rob's, but I have not yet had a chance to talk to him and tell him what to look for to find out if it is the problem or not.
So the wait continues! FWIW   BK 

[Busted Knuckle]

I have really been wondering what the out come was! Anybody else curious?   BK 

[John316]

I am wondering too??? What happened??? If he had a rear control panel, like on our DL3 with a S60, I would have suspected the engine run switch to be in the off position. I have done this before...Cranking, Cranking, Cranking...Nothing...Nothing, and then realize that the switch is off in the back . It has the exact same symptoms that Rob described.

BK, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you are right on the problem...Good job. No if he would only read the thread...

God bless,

John

[Skykingrob]

Hi All
Sorry for not writing sooner but there were reasons. My computer crashed the next day, then had unexpected family death, then Christmas, so I haven't been able to write until now. BK, I did get your message. and have recorded the number. I will call now I have read your message.
I thought it might be fuel so I replaced the filters, nothing. On the side of my secondary filter there is an air fitting like a tire valve stem but there is nothing on the primary filter.  I have checked all the fuses I have found, all breakers, nothing wrong.  I did mess up the rear start switch one other time but that is not what is wrong this time.
Sammy, I will get the numbers and get back to you.
Thanks to everyone trying to help, please don't give up just yet.

Rob
Nonstarting 91 LeMirage XL
Missouri

[John316]

Rob,

Sorry to hear about the death in your family. Keep us posted on what it going on.

God bless,

John

[Skykingrob]

Hi All
I finally have a running engine. And no, it was none of the things anyone suggested. And yes, this could be a learning experience for many. So, here is the whole history and the solution.

The coach run just two weeks before the problem started. With the diesel price dropping, I decided to top off the tank. It had a 1/2 tank and so at $2.99 per gallon, I topped the tank thinking I was smart. Silly me, I didn't expect diesel to still go lower, now it's $2.19 per gallon at the local truck stop. Oh well!

The next day after topping the tank I decided to go for a short run. The engine had always turned over 3 or 4 times and fired off with no problems, but not this time. I checked the usual things. I unscrewed the fuel filters and they were full. I didn't remove or replace since they were full, which was a mistake as you will see later. I checked the rear start switch, nope it was in the right position. I checked to make sure the air filter was okay and air flow wasn't blocked, no birds or wasp nests, etc. I checked oil and coolant level, just fine. Frustrated, I went to the factory book to start reading and posted a message on the board hoping to tap into the wealth of information available here. The factory manual said the engine was a DDEC, hence my response to the board that it was a DDEC. Based on information I got from the board, I looked high and low for fuses for the DDEC. I looked for the code indicator lights for the DDEC. I couldn't find anything anywhere, more frustration. Then my stinking computer crashed. I took it to the repair place and was played daily with the repair guy saying it will be ready tomorrow then tomorrow, so on and so forth. Then 3 days before Christmas, I got a call that a close uncle had died unexpectedly in surgery. So I was off the board for several days dealing with computer failure, death and Christmas.

I got home early evening December 28 and posted. I read both BK and Sammys message as well as many who were frustrated that they hadn't heard what the problem was that prevented the start. I called BK that evening and we were able to determine, before his cell phone battery went dead, that the engine wasn't a DDEC. BKs' inside joke was the skinner valve was surely stuck and causing the fuel cutof lever to open and cutof fuel. Nope, the valve was working like it should, the fuel cutof was in the start position. The next day, I lowered a hose into the fuel filler and drained out some of the diesel to eliminate the question if there was a fuel overfull switch. The engine cranked and cranked but no start. Nope there is no fuel overfill switch. Still got the problem. I removed a fitting in the top of the fuel tank then installed a tire valve stem and pressured the tank to 65 pounds. Boy did I have fuel flowing to the primary filter. Tried to start again, nothing. I checked the secondary filter, no fuel free flowing there but, of course, it is after the fuel pump, another clue for ya! I replaced the primary filter, still won't start. I replaced the secondary filter, still won't start. BK had told me a trick he has used several times for starting the engine buy using an old fashion dish soap bottle to inject fuel through a fitting in the side of the secondary filter. I did and the engine would start and run while I pressure fed the fuel to it. As soon as I let the pressure off, it would die. At least I knew the engine would run and I just needed to keep tracing out the problem. I removed the newly installed primary filter, drained the fuel from it and filled it with off road red dye diesel and reinstalled. I cranked the engine several different times for 20-30 seconds at a time hoping that the red dye would end up in the secondary filter. It never did. So, I either had an air lock from the primary filter to the fuel pump or a fuel pump problem. With the pressure from the tank at 65 pounds, I didn't think I had an air lock. On a whem, nothing else could explain it, I emptied the fuel from the old primary and secondary filter. I got black gunk from the primary filter. I emptied the secondary filter expecting to find thick black gunk and wallah, there was the clue I didn't know I had until I emptied the old secondary filter, metal shavings. I removed the fuel pump to check it out. The center shaft of the pump is supposed to turn roller like devices to pump fuel. The shaft was turning like it should but with metal shavings in the secondary filter, there had to be an internal pump problem I couldn't see from the outside. I got a kit from the local DD dealer to overhaul the pump. The shaft was heavily worn and gouged from spinning and none of the rollers moved when the shaft moved. I replaced the overhauled fuel pump and tried again. This time it started like it always had. Eureka, back in business!!

Here are some "morals of the story" I learned along the way. The factory manuals don't always tell the truth about what you have. I will change the fuel filters sooner in the future not just loosen to see if they are full. And most importantly, I will drain the old filters just to see if there are any clues I should know about.

Thanks to all who openly shared trouble shooting/problem solving ideas. While it wasn't any of the things directly suggested by the board, I can honestly say I learned alot from this experience not only from the board but also digging through the various steps of what makes the engine I have run.

Rob
Running 91 8V92 LeMirage XL
Missouri

[Busted Knuckle]

Congratulations! It's great to hear that you got it going!

Also I am sorry I didn't call you back after I got my phone charged up, but I sorta got side tracked & forgot. Opps!

Glad after all that that it was something as simple as all that! LOL!     BK 

[Lin]

I disagree about not getting the right answer here.  There are several posts that suggest it had to do with fuel supply.  There was an assumption that you had a working fuel pump, but even with a small car, with a fuel problem the fuel pump is one thing to check.

[John316]

Rob,

That's great that you are up an running. Thanks for the post. Some of those fuel issues can be really tough.

BTW Where are you in Missouri? I was just curious.

God bless,

John

[Sammy]

Rob, happy to hear you got it running again. 

[Skykingrob]

Hi All

Lin, I guess maybe I am splitting hairs. If you look at the last paragraph in my post, you will see that I said "things directly suggested by the board". There is no argument that fuel was mentioned several times. And yes, I would have assumed a working fuel pump but that was not the case. I learned, again, a valuable lession; go into these things with a open mind, no preconceptions and check everything. My intent was not to anger anyone on the board but to make it a learning experience for everyone, not just me.

BK, it was simple but man the labor cost involved would have been out of sight because it meant checking and double checking all the variables. Clearly a trained mechanic would have done it faster but it probably took me about 10 hours over several days as I thought through the various permatations of the fuel system. Cost of the parts was only $150.

John, I live in Ozark, just south of Springfield, only 2 miles from Lamberts, home of the famous "throwed rolls".

Thanks again to everyone.

Rob
91 LeMirage XL
Missouri

[Lin]

Rob,

I appreciate you getting back with the correct answer.  You are definitely right about the lesson.  This one is sort of the KISS rule, "If it acts like a bad fuel pump, it could be a bad fuel pump."  I have often ignored the simplest solution looking for something more exotic and need to be reminded.  I was just pointing out that the board was close if not directly on.