What are the laws regarding seat belts in bus conversions/RVs?

[kyle4501]

Yep, BSA is secondary & covers registered leaders & scouts only.

[WEC4104]

Yep, BSA is secondary & covers registered leaders & scouts only.

I think that is essentially the intent, however I am not sure that there isn't coverage extended to non-registered adults who are driving on official scout trips. For example, if one of the Scout's Dads, who is not a registered leader, helps out by driving on a trip, there may be secondary liability coverages extended to him as well.

Brian: Yes, tour permits are only required for out of council trips. Since the geography of our council is much smaller, we almost always travel out of council and need to file for a permit. At my previous Troop we were less than 1/2 mile from the border between two different councils.  If we went by the exact letter of the regulation we would have had to file a separate tour permit to take the boys grocery shopping on Thursday night before a weekend trip.   

[Busted Knuckle]

Cliff is right. TALK to your local district & find out what the REAL rules are.

It's great you want to help with scouting.     

My understanding is that if I'm driving scouts for a scout function, the BSA insurance, not mine, covers all the scouts. 

Think about it, it only makes sense that way. Otherwise, the only trips would be ones you could walk to.

Another thing, you could get waivers for the parents to sign.

Personally, if I was that worried about liability, I wouldn't leave the house. 

Volunteer for scouts & set a good example for the boys & girls. Lord knows they need REAL HEROS! They already have enough zeros.

Kyle, Brian and everybody else,
First off trust me I think what Brian is considering or wanting to do is awesome! I was a Boy Scout myself! That being said I remember my dad using our sticks & staples MH back in the 70's to take me and most of the troop & drop us off at camp. Again it was awesome, and many of the boys had never been in any kind of camper/MH before and some probably never were again. So it is something that the boys do/will remember a lifetime! OK that been said, yes I believe any and all Scout leaders / Volunteers do a great service to the troops. The thing ya gotta remember is the 70's are over and there is a whole new mentality out there these days! First off just because the BSA has insurance and says "don't worry yer covered" please look out for yourselves first! Make sure you get it in writing from the insurance carrier, up front before ever letting the first scout on da bus! This day an age it doesn't matter who you are, if something goes wrong (which we never can tell when it will) the lawyers get to the "victims & their families" one way or another!  And once they do they convince them "to sue anybody and everybody and let the JURORS and the JUDGE decide who pays what!" Now since you have a home, motorcoach, and whatever else appears to have value written all over it, and you are directly involved. It doesn't matter if your in debt out the yenyang, you look as though you are "loaded" and you will be sued! Next the BSA's insurance lawyers are gonna protect the BSA since they pay the bill, and well if it works out that it's convenient to cover you too in the process well then that's a bonus! But the truth is their # responsibility is gonna be the BSA, unless you have it writing to prove that the BSA (1) new about this, (2) approved this (3) notified the insurance company of it in advance! So who's gonna end up being the scape goat? If it were a perfect world we wouldn't need to worry, but this is 2008 and people sue (& win) over the first thing they think of! FWIW
Please protect yourself first!
  BK 

[kyle4501]

The following sums it all up to make sure all are protected;


TALK to your local district & find out what the REAL rules are.

Then, if you're still worried but want to drive, talk to a lawyer about liability waivers for the kid's parents to sign.
Talk to your insurance company to make sure they know & you ARE covered.

If something bad happens & you end up being sued, it's a sorry jurry pool that would hold you responsible. Not to mention you didn't get a decent lawyer.

Just my $.02

BTW, I do drive for my scout troop & I know the parents of every scout that gets in my car. My way.

[REK]

Gentlemen and Bus Nuts:

As a lurking Bus Not, I have almost always agreed with the comments made by BK and and most posters here, except the ones that are to sensitive, in this case I am forced to agree with most of what was said, even if I don't want to.

By background, I am an Eagle Scout – My father often drove myself and troop members in our converted Flxible – and yes, it was the '70's.  A different time if not place.  Currently, beyond being a forlorn Bus Not, I am a Corporate Risk Manager.  (What you ask is that ?  I am an corporate insurance geek, I oversee the casualty insurance that the company buys, manage our claims, supervise the issuance of Certificates of Insurance and Surety Bonds and consult on contractual insurance provisions.  Like I said, a geek who reads insurance policies !)

The disagreement.

   The vehicle owner's insurance is Primary.  (Period, end of discussion.)
   The owner's excess insurance is on the hook next.  (Excess, as in your personal umbrella policy)
   The driver's insurance would follow, (primary automobile liability followed by excess) assuming he / she is different from the vehicle owner.
   BSA's insurance would then, and only then come into play IF that is what it is designed to do.  (Sorry, I haven't read the policy and simply do not know)

NOTE:     This applies to personal automobile insurance and NOT Business Insurance which is a whole different animal.

FREE ADVICE:   If you APPEAR to be anything but homeless with a toy or two, you should seriously consider, (BUY IT !) a homeowners umbrella policy.  It is generally very cheap and often provides coverage for things that are not covered under your personal automobile or homeowners policies.  See your agent or call a lizard as I don't sell insurance.

THE APPEAL:     If anyone can see their way to help out there local Troop, please do so.

Thank you,

Richard Kieser, ARM
Unfortunate Bus Not and Eagle Scout

ARM – Associate in Risk Management  (Means something to insurance geeks)

[belfert]

To make it clear, I've given up on this idea.  I'm 99% sure the council would decline to allow a bus conversion without seat belts to be used.  I am certainly not going to add seat belts.

I'll continue to do as I have the last few years and borrow a vehicle from my parents for the week to haul scouts to camp.  My VW Golf is only big enough to haul one scout comfortably and that is against BSA policy.  The back seat is way too small to haul anybody on a 5 hour trip.  For a number of years I had crew cab F350s and that worked fine for the trip to camp.

I've volunteered with a local scout troop since May 1998 in various capacities even though I have no kids.  I have been assistant Scoutmaster, Committee Chair, and committee member over the years.  I've also been treasurer and coordinated all campouts for several years.  I've done all of the leader training and Wood Badge.

Not using my bus conversion to take scouts to summer camp isn't going to stop me from going to camp or wroking with the scout troop.

Oh yes, I do have a $1 million umbrella liability policy.  I have had this since the first insurance policy I ever took out.  My insurance is quite expensive because of the high limits I have even though I've never a ticket and get the accident free discount.

[jackhartjr]

Richard, Kyle, Brian, Bryce, et. al.;  This has been a very educational post...and I think we have all learned from it!  Thanks to the powers that be that did not say it was off topic and throw it in never never land!
I think the most important thing is that Brian, had a concern and has got some real good advice from some folks that know!  And that's a GREAT thing.
And Richard, I have my ARM study manuals here, I may complete that some day!
Jack Hart, CDS
PS...Richard, we all started out as "Lurking butnuts!"  Next thing you know, you talk to a couple...you got a bus!
Don't you wish you had the Flxible now?

[Chaz]

Richard, Kyle, Brian, Bryce, et. al.;  This has been a very educational post...and I think we have all learned from it!  Thanks to the powers that be that did not say it was off topic and throw it in never never land!
I think the most important thing is that Brian, had a concern and has got some real good advice from some folks that know!  And that's a GREAT thing.

Right on Jack! My sentiments EXACTLY!! This was/is a VERY good post.
Thanx all, especially Richard.
   Chaz

[WEC4104]

Since this thread has sort of morphed into a "Bus and Scouting" discussion, let me share the additional story.

Last year, I received a phone call from a fellow bus owner who lives in the Gettysburg area. He also owns a 4104 and is in the process of resurrecting it.  Over the past year, we have exchanged a few phone calls discussing the ins and outs of 4104s as his work progresses, but have not gotten together.  In passing, I happened to mention that we are hoping to take our Boy Scout troop out to tour the Gettysburg battlefield in April of this year. Gettysburg permits a limited number of Troops to camp in a particular area, and it is sort of a lottery to see if you get space.  On thing has led to another, and my bus friend has graciously offered up his place for the boys to camp if our plans at the battlefield fall through.  I thought that was a wonderful gesture and we may end up needing to take him up on that.

If we do take the troop to his place, my friend indicated that there was plenty of space to bring my bus. I generally do not use the bus for scouting but may make this the exception. For reasons already discussed, I will not be transporting scouts in it.  But if I take it out there, letting my friend look it over may help him answer questions he has about his 4104.  My bus may also solve a problem with regard to bathroom facilities for the Troop.  

Just one more example of why I think bus nuts are a great group.

WEC4104
ASM - Troop 91
Cradle of Liberty Council

[Sean]

... I am certainly not going to add seat belts. ...

The BSA issue aside, I strongly advise you to check your state laws on this before driving with anyone unbelted.

If you get pulled over, and the officer finds passengers in seats that have no belts, you can be cited.  Moreover, she will not simply hand you the citation and wish you a nice day -- she'll make everyone without a belt get out of the coach and find another way home -- you will not be permitted to drive the coach even another inch with unrestrained occupants.

By contrast, if the belts are there, but some adults are not using them, usually the driver is off the hook -- the passengers not using belts are subject to citation instead.  Children, of course, are another matter -- the driver is still responsible for properly restraining children.  And in many states, that involves booster seats for those under a certain age or size.

You don't need to worry about seats that are only intended to be used while the coach is parked.  On many production coaches, you'll find free-standing dining chairs and sometimes recliners that fall into this category -- they will be clearly marked as not to be used for travel.  But any seats that will have butts in them while you are rolling need to have belts if your state requires them, or if you ever intend to drive into a state that does.

Lest anyone think that no one ever gets checked or pulled over for this, I can tell you by direct experience that they do.  Read down to about the fourth paragraph in this post:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005/05/we-are-en-route-to-pedco-in-santa-fe.html
Note that we have Washington plates, and this incident occurred in California.

Also, strictly as a matter of opinion (but with some amount of experience behind it), the advice that you have more legal liability by adding belts than not is incorrect.  Obviously, you need to have some idea of how to do it right -- they need to be secured to the coach structure with hardware adequate to the task (vs. for example, running them into a plywood subfloor with lag screws).  But assuming you have exercised due care, in the event of an incident that brings you to court, most juries will take that into account, whereas if you elected to drive without restraints available at all in a place where the law requires them, a jury will almost certainly find that you acted recklessly.

Seat belts are cheap.  You can get aftermarket lap belts at any Flexsteel dealer, at many auto parts stores, from J.C. Whitney, and even, I think, at Camping World.  There is really no excuse for not having them wherever required.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

-Sean
http://ouroyssey.blogspot.com

[niles500]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0316/SEC614.HTM&Title=->2007->Ch0316->Section%20614#0316.614


4)  It is unlawful for any person:

(a)  To operate a motor vehicle in this state unless each passenger and the operator of the vehicle under the age of 18 years are restrained by a safety belt or by a child restraint device pursuant to s. 316.613, if applicable; or

(b)  To operate a motor vehicle in this state unless the person is restrained by a safety belt.


(d)  The requirements of this section shall not apply to the living quarters of a recreational vehicle or a space within a truck body primarily intended for merchandise or property

5)  It is unlawful for any person 18 years of age or older to be a passenger in the front seat of a motor vehicle unless such person is restrained by a safety belt when the vehicle is in motion


(10)  A violation of the provisions of this section shall not constitute negligence per se, nor shall such violation be used as prima facie evidence of negligence or be considered in mitigation of damages, but such violation may be considered as evidence of comparative negligence, in any civil action