New twist on Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel!!!!!!!!!!

[jackhartjr]

Hi folks, we have heard all the 'horrors' of Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel and loss of lubricicity which so far seems to be unfounded; In my humble opinion!
I was thinking the other day...just got home to where I can post this.
As I understand it, the thing that kills diesel engines is sulphuric acid which is a byproduct of the sulphur in the fuel.  By going from 500 parts per million (PPM) to less than 15 PPM, does that not mean our engines will probably last longer?  Or maybe even extend the time between oil changes?
How bout it boys and girls?
Jack

[tekebird]

all I know is when ULS came out my MPG in my truck dropped, no other changes

[Sammy]

Jack, I am not a chemist, nor an engineer, LOL, but I can give you a viewpoint from fleet operations.
We have found that the fuel filters need replacement at shorter intervals than we currently use. For example: We used to replace fuel filters when we change engine oil and oil filters at 8500 to 10 k mile intervals,now we replace the fuel filters at 4k to 5k mile range, to prevent road calls, breakdowns, loss of power complaints, etc.
We find the fuel filters are giving us trouble a lot sooner than our original scheduled interval,using the new fuel. Doesn't matter what brand of filter we use.
My understanding is that this new fuel also does NOT have as much lubricating properties as the old style fuel, possibly causing premature injector failure,etc. I need to do more homework on this.
Still learning about this stuff as time goes on, making adjustments to our maintenance program as we see fit. Hope this may help.
Sammy  

[Ncbob]

When I last filled up before we made our southern Florida swing I added a gallon of pure soybean oil in the hope that I was adding some lubricity to the fuel system..I needed a bit over 100 Gallons to top off. So far I haven't seen anything pro or con to make me stop using it. It's cheap enough...about $7 a gallon at your favorite super market.

Headed back for Central Florida tomorrow.

Bob

[kyle4501]

I can't remember where I heard it, but I felt confident in the source at the time. . .
There is more than just sulphur being removed from diesel these days.
Sulfur isn't the lubricant, never was. There are aromatic hydrocarbons that are being removed along with the sulfur due to their negative impact on emissions. It was my understanding that it was these aromatic hydrocarbons that were providing lubrication.

[jackhartjr]

Me again, Sammy, this is the first I have heard of fuel filter problems.  I visit about 250 truck and bus companies a year.  I ask about the fuel situation...again i have not heard anyone saying they have had to change filters more.  Anyone else with this problem?  (Sammy, you might want to start a new thread with that as a question.)
I wonder if the fuel source might be part of your problem, or if you have a large tank, could there be trash in it.
I have a Chevy truck with the Duramax Diesel in it, I change the filters about every 13-K to 15-K (The computer tells me when to change it) and I always look at/in the filter to see if there is any trash or water, so far after just over 100-K and 7 filter chages I have found nothing in them.  I do fuel about 95% at Flying J simply because I trust the fuel.
Thanks for all of the input here.
Jack

[mc8 tin tent]

Jack
  I don't know for sure about fuel now but in near past the engines built in Europe an now operate with state side fuel have/had problems with the piston ring groves collecting carbon and would lock up the engine or seize the top of the piston to the wall which would pull the piston in half. Could this be an attempt to  get all the fuel producers on the same page??
   Dwayne

[belfert]

My VW TDI has developed serious MPG problems recently, but they started at least 6 months after I started using ULSD regularly.  The TDI engine has intake plugging issues due to use of EGR, but ULSD is hoped to fix that with less crap in the recirculated exhaust.

I changed my fuel filter, but fuel economy is no better.  I'm down a good 15% on MPG.  That really hurts with the cost of diesel.  I'd be better off with a gasser car right now.

[JohnEd]

I read a series of posts a while back that mentioned that the mfr would void your warranty if you used motor oil in a greater proportion than 10%.  It reduced power, they said.  Can oil be added to the fuel to recover the lubricosity lost in the new formulation of diesel?  I note in this thread that carboning is raised as an issue and piston seperation "could" be serious.  Does the addition of oil add to the carboning issue?

Thanks,

John

[prevost82]

I'm also seeing reduced MPG and it feels like I've lost some HP as well. But haven't had anyother issues.
Ron

[Sean]

Oh no.  Here we go again with the sky falling.

This has been hashed to death here and on the other board.  A quick search of the archives will turn up pages and pages of discussion and analysis.

For the record, yes, sulfur in fuel is bad for engines (very bad, actually).  The problems stemming from ULSD have to do not with the lower sulfur content, but with the fact that the process used to reduce the sulfur also reduces aromatics, which reduces lubricity.  So raw ULSD (after refining and sulfur removal, but before other treatment) has less lubricity than LSD.

That said, you and I can't generally buy this fuel.  All ULSD diesel fuel sold at the pump has already been treated with special additive packages to restore the lubricity lost during the sulfur-removal process.  (Companies that are in the business of selling after-market fuel additives will try their best to convince you otherwise, even stooping to such tactics as sending out very scientific-sounding "press releases" on the subject in the hopes that the trade press will pick them up and run them more-or-less as fact.)

The jury is out on the long term effects of ULSD.  The first people to really know the straight dope will be large fleets, but, even then, unless they are keeping careful track of which trucks are getting ULSD and which ones LSD, they won't have good data for analysis.  And it will be another year or so before substantive real-world data is available.  Even then, these fleets are generally using four-stroke engines made within the last five or so years.  Their results on the effects may not be applicable to 20+ year old two-strokes, which generally have looser injector tolerance to begin with.

The fuel-filter clogging issue is real, and was predicted:  ULSD is a better solvent than LSD, and, as such, it tends to clean a lot of old crud out of the fuel system, including stuff that was caked on the bottom of the tanks.  So it is entirely expected that filters will clog faster for the first few thousand miles after switching to ULSD.

FWIW and YMMV.

-Sean
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com

[belfert]

MCI has a service bulletin out about ULSD and fuel filters.  They recommend changing filters every 5,000 miles for a total of three changes before going back to a 15,000 mile interval.

[TomC]

Sean hit many points on the head, but I'd like to say a couple also.  I work at Los Angeles Freightliner and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that when the ULSD was introduced to this point, we have NOT seen any increase in injector failure.  Clogging filters are a function of either dirty fuel station in ground tanks or residual from your own tanks getting into the system.  When your fuel system has been cleaned, it'll be business back to normal.
As to the lubricity of the fuel, I want to reiterate Sean's point that our old mechanical fuel injection systems on the old 2 strokers are loose and sloppy compared to the new electronic injectors-especially the new injectors that are operating over 30,000lb per square inch of injector tip pressure (as compared to about 6-10,000lb/sq in on ours).
Run a few tanks of the new fuel (I already have and quite frankly haven't noticed any difference except that the new fuel doesn't smoke as much) and change your fuel filters a couple of times, then everything will be close to back to normal.  Besides-what choice do we have?  Good Luck, TomC

[lostagain]

Come on guys...

Gag me with a spoon!

Quit whining about the fuel.

Fill 'up and drive.