Is upgrade from 165mm to 200mm headlights worth it for better lighting?

[opus]

I used them before one has to use a little common sense when it comes to the candle power and the angle though,some of the stuff Daniel sells is not legal in all states fwiw 

Understood, you can buy anything in the way of lights from him, off-road or on-road.   I wouldnt use anything that didnt have a cut off on the road.  Thats your choice though.

[RJ]

Brian -

Unfortunately, 165mm headlights suck.  Worst legal/illegal lamp ever built.

200mm aren't much better.

You cannot optically align Cibie E-Code headlights, the US equipment doesn't work with them.  For best results, you need to follow the alignment procedure specified in the instructions that came with your lamps.  (Basically, parked on a level surface 25' from a wall, a measuring tape, blue painter's tape, a dark-colored towel and 30-45 minutes of time.)

If you don't mind redesigning the front end, then install four of the 7" round Cibie E-codes (like what's on the front of a 4104 but doubled).  Wire such that all four are on at the same time, either on low or hi beam. 

In addition, pick up some 5" round Cibie pencil-beam driving lights and mount them behind the bumper cutouts that already exist.  Put 100w bulbs in them, which are available with a little searching.  Be sure to aim them exactly straight ahead, or slightly toward the RH side of the road.

Finally, if you really want some more lighting, then mount two or three Cibie "Super Oscars" on the roof.   

Haven't checked in awhile, but I believe www.cibieusa.com has better pricing than Daniel.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[belfert]

My first thought would have been you have the spades wrong.  They say that will cause the type problem you are having.  You said you checked them though.  I do know the Cibie are great lights, but this is over my head.  Hope you figure it out.

I did have something wired wrong on the driver's side at first, but I fixed that.  I suppose it wouldn't hurt to check the connections again to be sure.  One of my big problems is a lack of a place to really test the headlights on a dark road.  All of the roads and highways around here are well lit with lights so I can't really tell how the headlights are working.  It isn't much fun spending $50 on diesel to drive out far enough to test headlights. 

I would prefer not to spend a good chunk of my summer and a lot of money playing around with headlights.  Spend the money and time once and be done. 

[belfert]

Y
I wasnt looking at rectangle LED's.  http://www.rallylights.com/all/lights/headlamps/90bl-hella-bi-led-90mm-headlamp-module-hi-low-beam.html

If I was spending that money I would not look at rectangle lamps.  What little I remember from science, light is round.  I don't have that budget though.

I would surely talk to Daniel, he is billed the #1 lighting guy in the US so he should know his stuff.  From the lengthy discussions we have had, I was well pleased.  Let me know what you find out.

I read your thread.  You ultimately went with what looks like a 165mm headlight.  Why that size and not a round headlight?  What headlight did you ultimately choose?

JW Speaker makes 90mm LED modules that cost much less than the Hella.  Is the Hella that much better?  The Hella BiXenon actually costs less than the Hella BiLED.  Folks over at the Candlepower forum say that Daniel Stern recommends the Hella BiXenon as the best headlight out there right now.  (My understanding is that the BiXenon is actually an HID.)  I have another email into Daniel to see what he says.

Jeremy, the primary reason I really haven't considered HID headlights is because there really aren't any HID headlights that can replace standard sealed beams.  There are many HID headlights marketed to replace sealed beams, but pretty much all of them are just a HID bulb inside a reflector housing designed for a halogen bulb.  They may provide more light for the driver, but the glare will blind oncoming traffic.  They are downright dangerous and possibly illegal.  Rallylights.com sells a fully legal HID headlight to replace a 7" headlight that combines a Hella 90mm BiXenon module with a custom housing, but they cost almost $1,500 for a pair.  The Hella BiXenon 90mm module is probably the only other true HID headlight that could be easily retrofitted to a bus.

Gillig and New Flyer have been, or still are, using 90mm headlights on their new transit buses.  I assume they are standard halogen and not HID or LED.  New Flyer is now using a custom LED headlight on their 40 foot and 60 foot buses that is supposed to last the entire 12 year replacement cycle of the bus and has a six year warranty.

[opus]

I read your thread.  You ultimately went with what looks like a 165mm headlight.  Why that size and not a round headlight?  What headlight did you ultimately choose?

Couldnt do round with my budget.  I wanted to but couldnt swing it.  Daniel recommended the 165mm commercial unit [over the 200mm] that they use on buses and trucks over on the other side of the pond.  He explained it to me but it went over my head.  LOL.

JW Speaker makes 90mm LED modules that cost much less than the Hella.  Is the Hella that much better?  The Hella BiXenon actually costs less than the Hella BiLED.  Folks over at the Candlepower forum say that Daniel Stern recommends the Hella BiXenon as the best headlight out there right now.  (My understanding is that the BiXenon is actually an HID.)  I have another email into Daniel to see what he says.

From what I understand and hear, LED headlights arent quite there yet.  They suspect by year end the will have "arrived".

Jeremy, the primary reason I really haven't considered HID headlights is because there really aren't any HID headlights that can replace standard sealed beams.  There are many HID headlights marketed to replace sealed beams, but pretty much all of them are just a HID bulb inside a reflector housing designed for a halogen bulb.  They may provide more light for the driver, but the glare will blind oncoming traffic.  They are downright dangerous and possibly illegal. 

Again, from what I have read and understand, you are right, they are illegal.

[Jeremy]

I just did a quick search on Ebay and these rectangular HID light units came straight up at £200 for the pair (but I've no idea if they are any good or even suitable. They are described as 'headlights' so presumably do all the necessary dipping etc):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10000K-Bi-Xenon-HID-4X6-H4651-H4652-H4656-Red-Green-Blue-White-Halo-Headlights-/230952058302?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c5d0bdbe

There are various other similar sets listed as well - all supplied with the headlight assembly itself as well as the bulbs

Or, as I mentioned, how about using OEM units? Jaguar & BMW spring to mind as manufacturers who used round headlights which could be fitted to the flat front of a bus fairly easily

Jeremy

(PS - I'm not trying to be argumentative with any of this, just curious why this option isn't one which seems to be considered - unless I'm missing something it seems to tick all the boxes)

[belfert]

You cannot optically align Cibie E-Code headlights, the US equipment doesn't work with them.  For best results, you need to follow the alignment procedure specified in the instructions that came with your lamps.  (Basically, parked on a level surface 25' from a wall, a measuring tape, blue painter's tape, a dark-colored towel and 30-45 minutes of time.)

I'm getting conflicting answers on optical aiming of Cibie ECE headlights.  Some say it works just fine, yet others like you say it doesn't work.  Daniel Stearn's website says optical aiming is the best method with visual aiming second best if optical aiming is not possible.  Optical aiming failed for me (twice), but I thought maybe it was just that shop.

I visually aimed my headlights by parking on a reasonably flat parking lot and then using two 4x8 sheets of cardboard to aim against.  It is very hard to find a building to aim against that has a level parking lot since parking lots are usually angled away from buildings.  The best choice would be a garage or shop that is long enough as the floors are usually level.

If you don't mind redesigning the front end, then install four of the 7" round Cibie E-codes (like what's on the front of a 4104 but doubled).  Wire such that all four are on at the same time, either on low or hi beam.

At this point, I am planning on some sort of redesign on the front end to get better headlights, so going to a 7" round isn't out of the question although I'm not certain I have enough room.  Would quad 7" really supply more and better light?  I assume both headlights on each side need to be aimed at the same point.

I'm not interested in driving lights or anything that produces light that would bother oncoming drivers.  I need good low beam performance as I drive mostly on interstates where there is often oncoming traffic and I can't use high beams.  I use high beams whenever possible as the difference is really night and day on my bus.

[opus]

I've yet to aim mine correctly yet.  We are up to our ears in snow so it can wait a while.  I have found a building where I can park the bus and have 25' of levelness to the wall. I only have to drive 15 miles for that. 
I have never been good at this aiming thing so I am going by the book on Daniels site.

I need to save up a few more $$$ and I will probably add on Hella 90mm halogen, for secondary high beams.  Between them and the KC driving lights that were on it when I bought it, I should have enough light. 

The only LED I am doing is going to be on the back, brake lights, etc.

For others reading this:

[belfert]

I just did a quick search on Ebay and these rectangular HID light units came straight up at £200 for the pair (but I've no idea if they are any good or even suitable. They are described as 'headlights' so presumably do all the necessary dipping etc):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10000K-Bi-Xenon-HID-4X6-H4651-H4652-H4656-Red-Green-Blue-White-Halo-Headlights-/230952058302?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c5d0bdbe

I've been reading Candlepower forums a lot and they say pretty much every HID conversion kit like the one on your link is dangerous and possibly illegal.

I'm not against using HID, but I would only install something that is legal and works properly.  About the only HID headlight I would use today is the Hella 90mm BiXenon module.  Headlights in the USA are very different from what is available in Europe.  The USA is pretty much one of the only countries that doesn't use the arguably superior ECE standard for headlights.  Most new cars here still use halogen headlights with a few luxury cars using HID or LED.  I think I'm better off installing a 90mm headlight than trying to integrate a headlight from another vehicle.

[opus]

Here's another thing I read on the internet, which makes it gospel of course; DOT lights have 20% of the beam headed up in the air so that it will light unlit road signs.  I hear tell that will change in April or August. 

Mind you, I read this before breakfast and that was a long time ago.

[Iceni John]

Simply, for automotive HID you should use projector-type (not conventional reflectors) and automatic self-leveling, the only way to guarantee all the light goes where it's needed and oncoming drivers aren't dazzled.   90mm Hella projectors work well with HID, but you'll still also need conventional highbeams for flashing the headlights during daytime.   Please don't put aftermarket HID capsules in reflectors not designed for them  - they do nothing except piss off other drivers, and it's illegal.

LED headlights are coming, but they're not proven technology yet for vehicles.   Wait a few years for the bugs to be worked out and the prices to drop.

Back to the original question  -  all things being equal, larger reflectors control light output better than smaller, and round is still better than oblong or other shapes.   For example, my spotlight with a 9" reflector and a 35W 4300K HID throws a tight beam almost 1 mile in clear weather, much further than my car's 90mm projectors using the same HID capsule (and my car's lights are very good).

[Jeremy]

I've just read a long and apparently informed thread on another forum about the aftermarket HID thing (the complete units as per my earlier link, not just the bulbs). Apparently, in the UK at least, they are fully legal as long as they are E-marked BUT they may only be fitted to cars with both headlamp leveling or air suspension, and headlight washers.

But just to confuse things there are standard production cars in the UK (Mitsubishi Lancer Evos were mentioned) which are imported via some low-volume scheme that avoids normal type-approval, and which have HID lights but not the necessary washers and leveling. And also there are examples of people fitting aftermarket HID units after their OEM HIDs had failed (on cars which thus have washers and leveling) who have nonetheless been stopped by the Police and fined (although to have been stopped in the first place presumably means that their headlights must have been noticeably out-of-adjustment, so I guess it was the adjustment that was the offence rather than the spec of the car as such)

Anyway, clearly the legality is a messy area at best (perhaps even more so in the US) and I understand why people would just want to stay clear


Jeremy