Tire Chains????

[rv_safetyman]

OK guys, by now most of you are learning that I have many moments of paranoia.  My tendency in that direction has really been active for the past few weeks (months) . 

My latest is not being able to test the bus in the next week or two.  We still have several inches of snow on the ground and I have to maneuver the bus out of the shop on ground that is not perfectly level.  As background, Eagles (at least mine) are not good on slippery surfaces.  We can't dump air to load up the drive axle, and when the Torsilastic are set properly the bogey wheels take quite a bit of load off the drive axles.  I have what some would call "steer tires" (non-traction) tires on all axles.  I have been stuck on wet buffalo grass on a fairly level surface.

So with that background, I want to get a set of chains, just in case.  I strongly subscribe to the school of thought that if the roads are bad, just park it, but this situation is a quite different.

I thought I had read some informative threads on the subject on this board, but I can't find what I was looking for.  For fun, put in the word "chains" in the search box and you will get 4 pages of vastly different thread subjects.  I tried "tire chains" and still got significant subject variation.

Now to my questions.  There are two areas I would like to explore with you great folks.  I will use:  http://www.tirechain.com/11-24.5.htm as a reference. 

1)  From what I read, it looks like it is OK to only chain the outside dual.  Any strong opinions to the opposite?  One of my thoughts here is that chaining only one drive tire (per side) might keep me from digging a big hole that would really create a problem.

2)  I am leaning towards the cable type chain as opposed to the "standard technology" chain.  They would be lighter and easier to store, but I am concerned about getting enough traction.  Comments?

Given the timing, I will probably have to buy them locally, and give up the internet savings.

Thanks for the help!!

Jim

[Van]

Jim, interesting subject. While living in north east Pa, the township let the residents have at the ash that was being laid down on the roads for traction. I don't know what your area uses for the roads there, but this might help around the approaches to your shop area for traction, worth looking into I think, maybe?

Chains are a plus for sure on the drives. Don't you just love air brakes on the snow Good luck Jim, be safe

[John316]

Jim,

Funny your brought this up right now. I am currently going through this.

Per CHP regs, all tires on the drive axle must be chained (meaning both duals), and the steer, and boggie aren't necessary. We are going with what CHP says, simply because we don't want to be laid up there. We have chains for the steer, and I am ordering chains for the drive (duals). We like to chain up our drive, simply because that sets the direction that the coach goes. No traction=problem...lol.

We are going with cable chains too. Problem with those is they don't last as well. I don't like running the old heavy ones, simply because they are so hard on the bus.

I would be surprised if you find cable chains (especially for duals), locally. O'Reilly had to special order them, and it would take 5-10 days for that. They can get Laclede, and they don't sell to the public. So I aborted that attempt, and I am going with these guyshttp://www.tirechain.com/12-22.5.htm I am ordering the cable chains, with cams for 150 plus shipping. I talked the guy there, and he said that they are every bit as good as Laclede...who knows.

FWIW

God bless,

John

[bryanhes]

Jim,

When I purchased my 4905 it came with a brand new set of chains still in the box. I will take a look at the manufacturer when I get home and post the name.

The Postal carrier that delivers to our office had the cables on his truck when he came by the other day and said they worked ok but not as well as chains.

I will probably never use them unless I get stuck somewhere on the road in a blizzard but I am going to try and stay away from that if at all possible  

HTH,
Bryan

[RJ]

Jim -

When I worked in the charter bus industry, I got really good at putting chains on a bus.  I could chain an MC-9 faster than I could chain my car, and often faster than the "chain monkeys" alongside I-80 putting them on for folk who didn't know how/didn't want to brave the cold.

Anyway, I've got a little experience with these things, so here's my take:

1. Chain the outside dual ONLY!  That's all that's legally required on a coach (if you were to come upon the gendarmes) for one, but the real reasons are: it's virtually impossible to reach the inner dual to get them on properly, you've just about got to take the outer dual off the coach in order to get them out should they fall down between the duals (don't ask me how I know this!), and dual-sized chains are HEAVY!

2. Cable chains are useless on a bus.  BTDT.  Get the good, cam-style chains, along with a rubber tensioner, sized appropriately for your drive axle tires.  Once you learn how to quickly install them, you'll be glad you spent the few extra $$ for the better ones.  BTDT2.  From the same site:

http://www.tirechain.com/cams.htm
http://www.tirechain.com/RUBBER-ADJUSTERS.HTM

Note that they don't show the rubber adjusters for 24.5 wheels.  I used to cheat - I'd just get the HD rubber bungees from Harbor Freight, three per wheel (make sure one of the snubbers is hooked to the loose chain end):
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40043

Must say, however, that I've come across Donner Summit (7000') on I-80 when it was snowing so hard you couldn't see the equivalent of two stripes in the road ahead of you in an MC-9 without chains and the coach did fine.  Just kept it in 2nd gear and rolled along between 15 - 25 mph.


John316 -

In my 25+ years in the bus industry, I NEVER saw the front axle of a bus chained up.

The CHP also recognizes that it's virtually impossible to chain the inner dual on a bus, but you MUST chain the outer dual. 

I was never questioned about my chains in all the years I ran over Donner and Echo summits (I-80 & US-50) with chains on.  And believe me, you do NOT get past the chain control if they say NO.

As I just shared with Jim, get yourself a good set of cam-style chains in the proper size for your drive axle tires and some rubber snubbers, learn how to properly install them, and you'll be fine.  Don't waste your $$ on chains for duals, you don't need them.  BTDT

FWIW & HTH. . .

[John316]

Great post, RJ. Thanks a lot. Kincaid bus lines, locally, said that they used the cable chains. Hence why we went with those. Good info, and we will get a set of good ones now.

I called and canceled my order for the chains for the duals. I still don't see why we wouldn't want the steers chained. I think we would used cable chains for that.

Besides, if Donner or Echo is snowed, we will just find a nice place to park...

Thanks a lot.

God bless,

John

[BUR]

    Jim
       I have driven Truck in the Northwest for years(2 trailers, 105,000 lbs, 85 ft long, when I had to chain up I had to put on 10 chains, My thought on cable chains is don't.  The outside chains will do the job for you. Be sure to get the camlocks and I used the rubber bungees as mentioned. You can go to any truck stop and get the chains. If you are running 12-22.5s get chains for 11-24.5s, they could be a little hard find because most trucks run low profile tires now. As a side note you are required by law to carry chains if going over any pass in the Northwest, and it is almost impossible to go anywhere out here without going over a pass.  Safe busin'    BUR

[luvrbus]

John, I carry the cable style and only chain the outside dual,but with your bus I would just lower the tag pressure like GreyHound did it for years I've watched those chain up and lift the tag and go across Donner.



good luck

[John316]

Thanks guys.

We actually have a set of both, cable, and chain. Both of them say they will fit 12 22.5. I haven't added it yet, but I am going to add a solenoid to dump the tag air, so we can keep rolling, without stopping and dumping the tag, then resuming our course.

My biggest question was about chaining up both duals, or just the outside ones. Makes sense, we are sticking with just the outside.

Thanks.

God bless,

John

[rv_safetyman]

As usual, you guys came through in spades!!!!

We had to go to Denver today for a funeral .  I checked the board with the smart phone and got all of your replies.  It pointed me in the right direction. 

I called our local truck supply where I get a lot of parts and they had standard chain but not cable.  That "solved" one of the dilemmas.  I bought a set of standard chains with the cam locks.  I would guess they are the same as the middle quality on the link I posted earlier.

I talked to two different parts people (phone and face to face) and both asked my whether I had standard or wide 11 24.5 tires.  I told both of them that there is only one profile for 11 24.5 (as far as I know).  In any case, I told them standard and they fit just fine.  BTW, my cost was a tad over $73.  I thought that was a very fair price.  Probably not super quality, but a vendor in our part of the country (think lots of chain law activations), probably sells reasonable quality product.  Beside, I hope never to have to use them after I get the bus out of the shop and headed towards Arizona .

I still have the 120V pack hooked up to hydraulic cylinders on the bus (still temporary setup, but getting closer to a permanent supply system).  I needed this system to lift the engine off the dolly and secured to the engine cradle.  In any case, I lifted the drive tires off the concrete and installed the chains (piece of cake).  Thought I should test fit them and I will probably leave them on for the first excursion out of the shop.

The chains had the cam lock system shown here:   http://www.tirechain.com/cams.htm.  I have never used that kind of system, but it sure seems to be effective.  I have looked closely at the cam design, and it really does not seem to be very "over center" so I am not sure how they lock themselves in the tightened position.

Again, thanks for the great input.

Jim

[BUR]

  Jim I have never had a camlock come unlocked.  BUR

[RJ]

Jim -

Get some of those rubber snubbers from Harbor Freight, like I listed in the post above, hook them thru the cams, they'll never come loose.  BTDT!!

One of the keys to the cams is your initial hooking of the chain ends.  If you don't cinch it up some what tight initially, before tightening with the cams, they can come loose.  As you go, each cam should get harder and harder to over-center until the last one, which you'll swear won't go until you really put some effort on it.  Practice and you'll see what I mean.

You're fortunate that you've got a dry shop to practice hanging them - it's no fun to learn how out on the road!

FWIW & HTH. . .

[rv_safetyman]

RJ, thanks for the continued great input.  BTW, I did not mean to repeat the link on the cams that you posted earlier.  When I was going over the posts on my phone, I missed that link.  As such, I repeated the link.  However, it is great information.

I bought some rubber "O" ring type tighteners and they must have been for much smaller wheels.  I will return them and use the rubber snubbers.  I had thought about connecting them to the cams, and now that you say it, it just makes good sense.

Yes, doing it in the shop with hydraulic cylinders to lift the axle off the ground is a great way to practice

Jim