R134 and R12

JohnEd · October 26, 2008, 12:50:19 PM

Frank,

Me too. Mine were still doing fine years later. All were factory air. The dilemma is that all the info I get lately forcasts DOOM and GLOOM. And, they have spooky pictures to back it up. One guy said he had the fix...he used a couple cans of 134 to "flush" the system and then filled with 134 and new oil. The thing that gives me heartburn is that this system is from 1973. I think Nick had the best solution as using 409 is compatible with R12 in all ways. I need to have the leak found and corrected anyway so I will let the shop charge the system with 409.

Thank you for your comment and info,

John

gus · October 26, 2008, 07:31:09 PM

I have a bunch of older vehicles. When one with R12 leaks out I simply recharge with R134, have had no problems at all. There is even an oil that works with either so I use that if I lose any.

I changed my freon manifold hoses so the old fittings can be used with R134 freon cans.

Although the pressures are slightly different I can tell no difference in cooling.

JohnEd · October 26, 2008, 09:26:11 PM

Gus,

Yours is the best report so far. I never heard of the oil you mention but I am sure a lot of other people are taking note. I would not hesitate to load her up with 134 cause I don't think I have much to lose. The fly in the ointment is that the system leaks down in a few months and needs recharged at least a couple times a year. Back then I had no concern for the ozone but I am getting smarter. I will have a shop locate and correct the leak and then have that same shop recharge with R409. 134 has a definite disadvantage when compared to R12. If you switch and 134 is OK then your R12 system had excess capacity. That's fine but mine is in the front of a 30 foot Winnie and I could never have too much. You have broken new ground here and I applaud your success.

Thanks for sharing that,

John

John

Bob Belter · October 26, 2008, 09:59:58 PM

Ahoy, Nick,

I see that R-134a is a single gas, and that R409 (A,B) is a mix. Can you enlighten us on how the R409 behaves when there is a leak? Does selective distillation occur, so that you must evacuate and refill to regain the properties? (I have an A/C certificate, but that aspect has 'faded').

Thanks /s/ Bob

kingfa39 · October 26, 2008, 10:09:33 PM

John, i did pull a good vacume on both systems and added the 134 oil to the charge since they say its not compatable with the r-12 oil, i dought there could have been much if any in the system, our local mech adds 134 to R-12 systems all the time and says he has never had a problem. just thought id add this info
Frank allen 4106

Nick Badame Refrig/ACC · October 27, 2008, 03:42:58 AM

Quote from: Bob Belter on October 26, 2008, 09:59:58 PM
Ahoy, Nick,

I see that R-134a is a single gas, and that R409 (A,B) is a mix. Can you enlighten us on how the R409 behaves when there is a leak? Does selective distillation occur, so that you must evacuate and refill to regain the properties? (I have an A/C certificate, but that aspect has 'faded').

Thanks /s/ Bob

Hi Bob,

Yes! All blended gasses leak different properties at different rates.

Good Luck
Nick-

gus · October 27, 2008, 11:24:32 AM

John,

I am a vehicle collector nut so I have about six older vehicles with AC, only one of which originally had R134 (a '94 Dodge one ton). The others are all '70s and '80s models. About half have very slow leaks (over the winter) and one usually requires one can of R134 in the spring. I don't consider this a significant leak in the overall scheme of things, especially considering the cost of auto AC services these days.

I've used the canned freon stop leak with some success. I've also found that most of my leaks have been loose or faulty valve cores. I don't understand how they become loose as little as they are used but they do.

As long as the system has any pressure there is no need for evacuating. Air and moisture cannot enter the system against any pressure.

The dual purpose oil came from my friendly local Bumper to Bumper auto parts store.

The only place I've found R134 at a reasonable price is at Sam's Club by the case but other box stores probably have equal prices.

Busted Knuckle · October 31, 2008, 06:17:54 AM

Well I have found R-22 to be an awesome refrigerant! We have customers asking for HEAT in the summer time! We just started using it this summer, but I see a very long lasting relationship with it & us! FWIW

BK

JohnEd · October 31, 2008, 09:05:01 AM

Gus,

That was where I was back when I was using the coach. I charged her up every spring. Now that I have to convert to 134 I felt I had to "fix" the system and upgrade the components. If this 409 freon works out I will be home free and not have to bother with anything except the leak. Love it when plan comes together.

Thanks for sharing your experience and I think you have a solid approach.

BK,

I take it you converted your R12 systems to R22? How did you do that? Aren't they phasing out R22 in the near future? Hope not..for you.

Thanks,

John

Busted Knuckle · October 31, 2008, 04:16:31 PM

Both of the MCI's we bought this summer were already converted from R12 to R22 when we bought them. (We sold 1 of them today!) But let me tell you it is rare in the charter business to heat people complain about being COLD! Most of the time you can keep them comfortable, but in the HOT summer time it is hard to FREEZE them out like these 2 buses do!
I am sold on using R22! Even if I have to build a stock pile of it! FWIW!

BK