Another Bus VIN Search

[sparkplug188]

I figured I should make a new post to avoid overlapping conversations and confusion.

Clifford and Eddie,  Do you have any records on a 1970 VIN 8167?  The only clues that my bus may be 8167 is tag renewal receipt from 2008 that was tucked away behind one of the cabinets.  It is possible the paper came from a different bus as the previous owner mentioned "selling all his other buses and this was his last one".  The roof had a huge number 1210 in vinyl near the rear of the bus.

It was advertised and sold to me as a 1979 bus which leads me to believe the Caldwell Brothers converted the bus to an entertainer model around that year.  Evidence of that is the steel used to widen the bus was completely rusted though in quite a few places and the dash has the Caldwell Brothers logo on it.  I also think the Caldwell Brothers were responsible for welding a stamped metal plate to the engine compartment with the numbers 908121.

My question is, are there any records that prove VIN 8167 was in service at any bus company after 1979?  If so, then we know the paper found behind the cabinet doesn't belong to my bus.

[luvrbus]

8167 was Carolina Coach it probably has the Carolina 5 digit number some where,after Caldwell finished one numbers were hard to find I do know the law requires 2 places for serial numbers I found my other up front stamped on the steering sector bracket it matched the rear.Some times the number will be under the band above the baggage doors or on the back of the speedometer

In all your repairs if you come across a frame number maybe I can help  70 to 79  I would bet a coke Caldwell bought the bus when Carolina retired it I beleive both Manny's and Bill's Caldwell conversions were Carolina Coach buses,Bill's is a 10 and Manny's is a 05  

good luck

[eagle19952]

 Your Bus ?
VIN# 8167 ......... 1970
SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 
Fleet# C7012     
renumbered 85148

Carolina Coach purchased the following:

8161  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7006   1970   renumbered 85142

8162  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7007   1970   renumbered 85143

8163  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7008   1970   renumbered 85144

8164  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7009   1970   renumbered 85145

8165  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7010   1970   renumbered 85146
Sold to Lee Coaches Inc. LC106 (VA); re#d 46106

8166  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                C7011   1970   renumbered 85147

8167  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)               C7012   1970   renumbered 85148


8348  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7101   1970   renumbered 85149
   
8349  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7101   1970   renumbered 85150
   
8350  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7102   1970   renumbered 85151
   
8351  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7103   1970   renumbered 85152
   
8352  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7104   1970   renumbered 85153
   
8353  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7105   1970   renumbered 85154
   
8354  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7106   1970   renumbered 85155
   
8355  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7107   1970   renumbered 85156
   
8356  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7108   1970   renumbered 85157
   
8357  SE05  Carolina Coach Co. (NC)                 C7109   1970   renumbered 85158

[eddiepotts]

I need the whole VIN to pull any thing. The 8167 just shows me as being a trailer.

[luvrbus]

That is all there was for serial numbers on a Eagle in that era no letters only 4 numbers they used 5 numbers for a 01 the long serial number with letters never came with a Eagle till the 80's

[sparkplug188]

I removed the dash and checked every side of every bracket- no numbers.  I have also checked all four sides of all of the frame rails above the baggage bay doors and the back sides of all of the trim pieces- no numbers.

Manny was very fortunate to find the speedometer sticker intact.  I have a feeling that is where it would be on mine.  It looks like someone carelessly peeled the top layer of that sticker away many years ago.

Now now that all the negative news is out of the way--  Remember that number on the roof of the bus?  1210



.....
30109  SE05  Metropolitan Transit Auth. (Houston TX)  1209   8/79  To Greyhound Lines Inc. #? (TX)
30110  SE05  Metropolitan Transit Auth. (Houston TX)  1210   8/79  To Greyhound Lines Inc. #? (TX)
30111  SE05  Metropolitan Transit Auth. (Houston TX)  1211   8/79  To Greyhound Lines Inc. #? (TX)
.....

The current titled VIN number is 8130110.  It was advertised and sold as a 79 Eagle.  It has 1210 written in huge black letters on the roof.  The previous owner said it came from Texas-- I figured he was trying to get me to believe it wasn't rusted out.  I think there may have been some truth to his story.

Does anyone know the history of Metropolitan Transit Houston VIN 30110 or VIN 8130110?

[luvrbus]

FWIW when they rebuild a old Eagle if goes down to over a 90% rebuild they can title in some states as the year it was finished  I could have done that on my Eagle but chose not too

[luvrbus]

You can always tell the model 05 and 10 Eagles Houston leased from Greyhound or bought the air intake grills on the sides are larger than your regular Eagle why I have no idea,but that is a way I can tell if it is a Metro Eagle or not 

It's probably no help but the Houston Metro Eagles had power steering and the 645 Allison the 740 was a special order for the 05 and early 10's because of the modifications that had to be done to the frame on the drivers side

good luck

[sparkplug188]

The radiator intake grills are 39" wide x 30" tall and the engine air intakes are approximately 13" wide x 12" tall and have 6 open slots.  This is a picture of the back right:

Edit: The bus does have power steering, but I do not know if it is factory or retrofit. This is the Eagles International thread where you identified it as an Eaton gear drive pump. I also noticed the strangely hacked and reinforced framework on the driver side behind the rear axle.  Again, not sure if that was done by Eagle Mfg, Houston Metro, the conversion company that made it an entertainer model, or one of the previous owners.



Edit 2: Added a picture of the driver side radiator intake grill:



Edit 3:  I found pictures of Metro Transit Houston 1200 VIN 30100 for comparison: http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/all,ky/auction/view?auc=241567

[eddiepotts]

sparkplug188  I sent you an email.

[sparkplug188]

Thank you, Eddie.  Every little bit of information helps.

I remember way back when I was grinding out and replacing roof rivets, there was a large red and blue stripe that crossed over the roof near the front, just like this:


At this point I am almost certain the paper I found behind the cabinet belongs to a different bus.  Further evidence is the mystery tag renewal paper has the VIN 8167, vehicle manufacture year 1970, and a renewal date of 2008.  If that paper belongs to my bus, then the VIN would have to have been changed from 8167 to 8130110 and the year from 1970 to 1979 some time in the last 7 years.  Considering the state of disrepair that takes many years to happen and the seller saying "I sold all my other buses"-- I think it is safe to say, the tag renewal paper with VIN 8167 belongs to a different bus.  If the lack of evidence can be used as evidence, there aren't any Carolina Coach numbers and the faded roof paint isn't Carolina Coach style.

Edit: I bought a complete vehicle history report on the current registered VIN number from the state.  The previous owner did in fact buy the bus in TX and register it in TN.

Thank you all for your help!  Eagle for posting links to documents on Yahoo groups; Clifford for recognizing clues and pointing out the details; Eddie for pulling the TX vehicle history.  If you guys ever pass though TN, I owe all of you a Coke  

[H3-45]

Sparkplug,

I had the "Pleasure" of driving one of the first Caldwell Entertainer,Stretched,Widened Eagles that were made along the many others that they built. The Coach's original name was "Gotcha" and boy did it,everytime you got near it. It's name was changed to "Lucky" hoping for some Karma,it helped a little but so did the more than a year passing with every one that drove it continuaslly working on it. Caldwell would take any form off Eagle and make a shell out of it.Not knocking them,they could and did do some amazing work.Some of the things I seen them start with and then get to drive the fifnished product was amazing. In those days it was and still is so easy to manipulate an Eagle into a complete different beast than it was originally manufactured. a lot of investors in the entertainer lease coach industry would purchase and old Eagle shell, Stretch it,widen it, raise the roof,re-skin and paint it,put a new interior in and you could get a title as a current year coach. so instead of leasing a 69 model 05 to the customer,you could lease them a "New" Caldwell Eagle 45'. Depending on how far you wanted to go with the reconstruction,you would have $80,000 to $100,000.00 in a "New Eagle 45". Half the cost of a Factory unit. and the only people that would know the difference was a real bus person that knew the changes of model years and what engines were in what years Etc. They did not keep very good records as to what they did to what.I remember once needing a electric motor for an axillary fan.Eagle didn't have it searched everywhere. went to Grainger and was informed I had a Whirlpool Dryer that I was trying to repair. What ever was available is what went on.Some of the coaches were amazing,some were not. No rhyme or reason as to the difference. I probably drove 10 or 12 Caldwell Conversions in my career along with dozens of factory Eagles. You could buy a Shell from Trailways Surplus Fleet for $8 to $12,000.00 in the 90's and go from there. a lot of people got rich using Caldwell Eagle Conversions.Some got 15 windshields, some were converted to high drivers it just depended on what you wanted to spend. There for a while the leasing company I worked thru seemed was getting a New conversion weekly.Good luck with your eagle,Once you figure everything out,Keep up with it and you will be fine. most of what they used were parts that were ready available from local suppliers,so it should not be hard to figure out your coach.

Robert

[eagle19952]

Here in lies some clues....

http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/16337.html?1168972917

Maybe you'll find one of these:

[H3-45]

The Agee,Gentleman would be a good start if he is still alive. They done some amazing work,just didn't keep very good records. I seen a lot with my own eyes. there was a Eagle Frame that an investor found in Louisiana I think, Nothing but the Frame,Tires,Suspension,Engine,Transmission. It would move under it's own power. they went to Louisiana and purchased it,built a plywood box in the drivers area,put on there coat and motorcycle goggles and drove it to Virginia. It started as a 69 05 and left as a "New Caldwell 45' Eagle". I had a conversion once that had a Cadillac Steering Column in it,when you tilted it,it went toward the windshield. Not very good for driving as you had the feeling you had to hold on all the time,but it was great for enter and exit to the seat and cleaning the driver area. There quality control was different on different coaches depending on work load of the shop. The Lease Bus Industry was changing at that time and there timing was right. There ability's were in demand. I cant count the number of Caldwell Eagles that were made for the Lease Bus Industry. you could purchase a surplus Trailway's shell and have them do all there stuff to it for less than half the cost of a factory unit.