Bus Accident in Montana

[RJ]

All over the news this morning, a Trailways bus accident in Montana, sadly killing two.  Here's a video commentary by the Highway Patrolman on the scene:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/sgt-scott-hoffman-describes-the-scene-of-a-fatal-bus/vmix_0c043a88-3a38-11e1-84a3-0019bb2963f4.html

Reading various accounts, it initially sounds like the veteran coach operator encountered some unexpected black ice, and the coach got away from him.

Pics of the Prevost involved show integrity of coach construction vs stick 'n staple.

A sobering reminder to be careful in foul weather conditions.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[Cary and Don]

It seems that every fatality involves passengers being ejected.  If seat belts were required fatalities would probably be rare.  Even the bus that drove off the overpass survived and the only fatalities were the driver and the person in the front seat.

Don and Cary
1973 05 Eagle
GM 4107
Neoplan AN340

[TomC]

Another unfortunate case of not waiting till the ice melted to go.  I agree with the seat belt (even just lap belts).  Good Luck, TomC

[Busted Knuckle]

Another unfortunate case of not waiting till the ice melted to go.  I agree with the seat belt (even just lap belts).  Good Luck, TomC

Well OK guys let's look at it like this. For many yrs buses weren't required to have seat belts. AS they were (and still are) the safest form of public transportation around.
Now all the sudden there is a new era where accidents like this hit the news like wild fire with the new modes of communication.

Then you take a bunch of legislators and lawyers that want to pass laws requiring seat belts in all buses.

Again I'm not against that, but who's gonna make them wear them, and how? The driver can't force 'm too & damn sure shouldn't be held liable if they don't!

Now for the last 4-5 yrs since all this attn. has focused on seat belts for buses and several manufactures are actually installing them as standard equipment.
And then you have the little guys who run older buses spending $8-10,000 per bus to retrofit them with seat belts that pass DOT standards.

Now that they've been around and in use a while the operators that have them are telling us less than 50% of the passangers will use them and they are spending quite a bit of $ repairing & replacing the ones that passengers tear up so they won't have to wear them if it becomes law! (they think if they are torn up they won't have to wear them, but if they are on the bus they have to be in working order and available in case the passenger "wants to wear it")
So please explain to me how requiring operators to spend that kinda $ for something the passengers won't use is going to help.
  BK 

[RJ]

Another unfortunate case of not waiting till the ice melted to go. 

Tom -

Unfortunately, this driver did not have that option, since he was on a scheduled line-run, not a charter.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[buswarrior]

You have to read the road.

The road is talking, if you choose to listen.

Black ice makes the road look wet, but there is no hiss from the tires, as they make on a wet road.

There is no tell tale spray kicked up by the tires.

Crack the window and listen. Watch the following headlights in the mirrors. Install an external temp gauge that measures correctly while underway in your conversion. To really have fun, the road surface temperature while underway would be trick.

DOT here uses both embedded temp sensors in the pavement, and vehicle mounted driving around to predict conditions for dispatching salt or brine trucks.

And if in doubt, slow down, very gently, a whole bunch.

And then slow down some more.

Find traction wherever it may be, the gravel shoulder is better than the flat asphalt. The grass berm is better than the flat asphalt. One set of wheels on something is all you need for directional stability, but speed is the devil when the ice is on the road. If it tears loose, keep it aimed somewhere, stay off the brakes, stay off the jake, stay off the retarder, stay away from the gearshift lever...

Trouble is, if you are into it with too much speed, it is all just some typing on a screen.

Praying to the false prophet of the schedule is the undoing of many a line haul coach driver.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[RoyJ]

I agree 100% with you BW, but, I think in these days and economy, it's increasingly harder to find real professional drivers. Wages are getting lower, companies are pushing drivers harder, maintenance is getting worse, in the end, things aren't as safe as they used to be, despite new technology.

As a part time charter driver myself, I gotta admit I'm guilty of driving tired at times. It's very hard to simply refuse a trip because you're tired; even the best companies and management won't understand that. When I'm fresh and alert, I feel like I know what's going on at every inch of the bus. But at the end of a 12hr overnight express run through the Rockies (BC limit is 13hrs/day), I'm no more than a human steering wheel holder.

Then you have some shady companies that pay no more than your local friendly McDonald's... (I'm not saying Trailways is one of them)

[Mex-Busnut]

Interesting thread for sure! A lot to learn from those of you with more experience.

Besides many things mentioned above, I am wondering also if more bus-related accidents in our day than 30 years ago can also be attributed to:

1. Much heavier buses than 30 years ago.
2. Higher centers of gravity in taller buses (Sometimes several feet taller.).
3. Higher speeds.
4. Tail-gating. 

Just my 2 pesos' worth.

[chev49]

 i like bk's post..have seat belts installed in coach... then have dot inspection on road just after 3 teen agers cut their belts up... we already are only allowed 3 tire blemishes... charter bus waiting for belts would be interesting...

as far as black ice, around here, sometimes its like water run off from a hill side across the road on a  blind corner.. sometimes not much you can do about that when the rest of the road is perfectly dry.

[artvonne]

 Accidents are going to happen no matter what we do. But if were going to do something, whatever it is, Buses aint where to start.

 They are heavier, but only in shades. a 1950 4104 weighed 35K loaded, now they are 40 some loaded, but on better rubber and brakes. Speeds are no higher, unless your talking after the 55 MPH speed limit was killed. But before the 55 the speeds were as high or higher than at any time since. Tailgating has really gotten to be an epidemic in some areas and why police aren't enforcing the law on that is beyond me. Never saw a Bus doing it, but I suppose they do. That would be pretty darn stupid with a Bus.