BCM Community

Does anybody have any input on when to get a CDL. Obviously our bus is titled as an RV, which, of course doesn't need a CDL. However in the CDL book it gives some guidelines when one needs a CDL. When pulling our trailer, which is rated for 14k, is a CDL needed? I have heard that other states will usually honor your home state's guidelines. What about getting a CDL, and not keeping a log book? Do the ten hour driving limits still apply, since we usually drive more in a day? Would one need a Class A since a we're pulling a trailer or is a Class B okay?

I'm sure that there is multiple schools of thought, so bring it on!!!       

God bless,

John

I think that generally, if it's not commercial, no CDL is required. There may be some states with tighter regs.

This topic has been covered in detail several times in the past, so doing a search on it will get you a wealth of answers and discussion on this topic.

Cutting to the chase, I do not believe the registration as an RV automatically exempts you from the CDL. My interpretation is that an RV of sufficient weight that is being used for commercial purposes (aka: paid driver, or transporting passengers for hire, or business transportation) would require a CDL.

You have to get a copy of your jurisdiction's regulations.

Sometimes it is a duck, sometimes it is a water fowl, sometimes it is a bird, sometimes it doesn't apply because they only refer to mammals...

You need to look very carefully at every word. Some places the weight, registered or gross, or length, or seating, or purpose of use, will trump the exemptions of RV registration. Air brake endorsement of some sort may also apply. The weight of the trailer, registered or gross, may trump other exemptions.

I have found the RV clubs too vague and lacking in details in their cross country or cross border guides on these matters.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

WEC4104, I started searching and I didn't see any threads about bus trailer combos and CDL's.

BusWarrior we will look at the regs again.

God bless,

John

May also differ by state.  Up here in Oregon, if it's a motorhome, it isn't a commercial vehicle.  No special licenses required.  Doesn't matter how heavy the trailer is or how long you drive.  No log book needed.

I for one would NOT get a CDL.  Other opinions will vary.  For me it's a Constitutional issue, I'm traveling inside my private property/primary residence----should'nt even need ANY license. HB of CJ  :) :) :)

HB of CJ, I agree with you 100%. I really would like not to get one!!!

God bless,

John

Okay, finally something I can weigh in on here.

I used to work for one of the Non commercial trucking companies in Virginia. I almost had to get my CDL, but bypassed it. The reason was not the vehicle, but the nature of the DRIVING. Since SOME of my work involved transporting or use of company vehicles or vehicles for the use of earning money, ie a commercial application, a CDL applies. Some of our employees were stopped, but since the transport was only "occasional", I'm sure the troopers did not ticket since the cases would probably be dropped in traffic court.

Now my insurance agent had a slightly different take on this: She pointed out that when my travel to and from work excedes 50 miles, or if I were primarily in sales and thus use my car for work: ie "Commercial" purposes, Commercial insurance would apply. The subject came up as I occasionally drive from Western PA to the East Coast to work, usually 2-3 times/month during the school year. That little bit of driving adds up to an additional 15,000 or so/year miles which raised the Red Flag.

Fortunately, it is only $5.00/yr more since it is pro-rated at an additional 10,000 miles/year. (This is State Farm in Pennsylvania). I promised her I would cut down the rest of my driving, which gas prices certainly did! However, if you are in any way earning income: ie traveling to craft-shows/flea markets etc to earn your primary income (sales), from what I understand, you may be in a grey area, and depending on the cop (if you get pulled over), have to spend a little time in traffic court.

Of course, I'm no lawyer, but I do get stuck watching episodes of Law and Order with my Dad!  ::)

Doug

My understanding is that your home state (New Jersey) sets the specific CDL requirements that would apply to you, and then you are "free to move about the country" based on adhering to your home state regs.

In NJ their regs state:

Are there any exemptions to being required to have New Jersey CDL?
Yes, a few . . .
1. Active Duty Military . . . with military licenses operating military vehicles.
2. Firefighters . . . meeting approved training standards and operating authorized emergency vehicles.
3. Farmers . . . in certain cases.
4. Individuals ....operating motor homes or other vehicles used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members, for non business purposes

The fact that #4 limits the motor home exemption to non business purposes tells me that a vehicle titled as an RV can still be required to have a CDL.

As I understand your previous posts, your vehicle is used extensively for out of state transportation of a band, and they do that for compensation.  What you tell the DMV when you registered it, and what you told your insurance company, is between you and them.  HOWEVER, should you have an accident or be stopped, the responsibility eventually rests with you.

I can understand HB of CJ not wanting to get a CDL for his vehicle used privately. Sounds like his truely is a non-commercial use however.   (Although I couldn't find any references to buses in the Constitution. Jefferson must have missed that one. ;))

Doug:  It is common practice for insurance companies to set different rates based on whether the driver is using their vehicle for "business use". However their determination of what constitutes "commercial" is entirely different than the Vehicle Code requirements for a CDL.

that little rule number 4 is vague. the way it is often looked at is "did you participate in any activity that benefited you in any way" IE did you receive something. if you haul the trailer with your race car and you won a trophy then you received something, if you played a gig and they gave you beer and food you received something. all these things can put you in the commercial class. I know that sounds stupid to be commercial because you won a trophy but it happened to me before as I had a trooper who wanted to prove he knew more about the regulations than anyone. odds are they wont write you for something like that but again it is at the discretion of the police.
steve

I think its a good idea to understand all the requirements of a CDL to operate our buses.

But I would not get one, unless forced by legislation too!

CDL's in my home state require higher points and penalties for any infraction.

Why bring more government or regulation upon yourself................

Just my opinion.

Cliff

   Here's what it says on the South Carolina website. So Far I don't know what              actual weight of my Eagle is.( play dumb if stopped ) Yea I guess soon I need to get a non-commercial cdl for this state.


   Class D
A Class D driver's license allows you to drive non-commercial passenger vehicles, such as cars and trucks, which do not exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.

Class E
A Class E driver's license allows you to operate non-commercial, single unit vehicles that exceeds 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. Examples of Class E vehicles include trucks and motor homes.  



Class F
A Class F driver's license allows you to drive non-commercial, combination vehicles that exceed 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. Examples of Class F vehicles include trucks and motor homes with a towed trailer or vehicle.

ED

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml

Bottom line:
no

but know your states requirements so you can explain it to officer friendly, when he isn't...

Everyone's correct in pointing at the regulations of whatever state you're registered in. However, there are some generalizations that can be made:

1) Many of the DOT regulations, including inspections and logbooks, are generally tied to commercial vehicles and/or driving for hire. But being exempt from the regs doesn't excuse you from driving your vehicle in an unsafe condition or driving when fatigued. It just means a lot of paperwork doesn't apply.

2) Commercially licensed large vehicles generally require a CDL license to drive. The definition of large will vary by state, but busses aren't borderline cases. You'll also need a current DOT inspection on the vehicle.

3) Even with an RV license, if you're being directly paid to transport cargo and passengers on a regular basis, it's likely you need a CDL. In the case of passengers, you some states will require a passenger endorsement. Indirect compensation is less clear, but if it smells like a business you may still need a CDL.

WEC4104, I think that you might have confused me with another (maybe iminaccess, I know he's from NJ). We are from the Midwest. I am very impressed how much you remember though. I sure couldn't say what one particular member has said in the last while (okay maybe BK, but he sets himself apart LOL). Thanks for the research that you did!!! It was very helpful.  You are really good with documenting things. Keep up the good work!!!

Ed Brenner, I was going to weigh this last trip, but I never had a chance when it was convenient. It still is pretty obvious that we are over 26,000 ::), Oh well. I wonder if the Private coach signs do any good. There certainly are officials that mistake it for a bus. When we crossed back from Canada this last time, the guard said that he thought that we were a commercial bus. If we were then we were going to be in trouble!

Getting the CDL would just be for the Letter of the Law. I already do a lot of the pre-trip that the book talks about (certainly more than some CDL holders do!).

Kd5kfl, great website, very helpful.

Thanks for the all the input!!! It is very appreciated!!!

God bless,

John

I have a class B with air brake Not for the law but for myself and now I am going for a P because I am beening loaned a seated bus. (A new 45ft van hool) so why not

We're not required to have a CDL, but I believe there are too many people out there driving rigs they're either not comfortable driving, or incapable of driving safely :o Maybe just a required safety course for anyone that wants to drive a rig over 26K  ::) Wait a minute......Okay, let it hit the fan! ;D ;D

Quote from: FloridaCliff on October 22, 2008, 04:32:32 PM
CDL's in my home state require higher points and penalties for any infraction.

Why bring more government or regulation upon yourself................
Cliff

i checked with 2 license agencies, the hwy patrol, 2 testers and finally the LT. in charge of CDL testing before i finally got the correct answer on requirements in Ohio.  No CDL required if you are not commercial, driving a motorhome, regardless of brake type or weights.
i was going to get one anyway, but he suggested not to for the same reason cliff brought up.  i didn't get one.
he also let me know that an open drink is not ok even if it's not the driver (i thought it was from seeing party buses) and that the bus speed is the same as truck limits, not the 70mph cars can drive, at least in OHio in case anyone cares.

John, you are absolutely correct. I had you crossed up with iminaccess, and thought you were the New Jersey owner driving his band around.  So, sorry.

Let me do a rewind.  If you are operating your coach for RV type purposes, and not something that could be deemed a business, then I would concur that you are non-commercial and the CDL probably doesn't apply.

In any event, my comments about researching the regs for your own home state still apply. You may also want to check specifically about the trailer. I believe my state has a requirement that anything over 10,000 GVWR requires a Class A, and I don't recall there being a commercial/non-commercial differentiation. So your 14K trailer might kick you into that class, even if you aren't using it for commercial purposes.

I just renewed my license, and kept my CDL even though I don't need it for the Bus. The reason I did is you never know when some legislator is going to push for RVs to get a different type of license. My CDL
is worthless for commercial use without a medical card and believe me we don't want to go there.
BUR

California states- with a class C license you can drive up to a 3 axle house car that is 40ft or under and pull up to a 10,000lb pull trailer, or a 15,000lb fifth wheel/goose neck trailer (don't quite know how you'd pull a fifth wheel behind a bus).  If the bus is over 40ft or you're pulling a trailer over 10,000lb, then you have to have a class A non commercial license.  Check with your state.  Good Luck, TomC

If you are using your coach for a band and getting paided at shows then not only would you need a CDL because of the weight of your coach you would need to have DOT #'s   it falls under Private Coach NOT For Hire..     Just like if a person goes to a rodeo with his motorhome and makes money for riding a bull..  He would fall under Private coach not for hire and would need DOT #'s

New Mexico has a field day when the Rodeo is in town in Albuquerque.  Busting all the rodeo participants that don't have DOT numbers on their pick-em-up trucks.  Good Luck, TomC

Just crious, since a bullrider only needs his rope, bell, boots/spurs, glove, rosin & chaps, if he travels in a car instead of a pick-up truck, does he still need a CDL and DOT # on his car?  Jack

Not sure if that response was a joke or not.. He would fall under the weight restrictions of his coach..   Sounds stupid but I had federal DOT at our office to do an audit on are company and that was straight out of there mouth..   As for a pulling a trailer..  If you do fall under commercial and pulling a trailer over 10,000 gvw then you do need a class A..   Most people think it's how much the trailer weighs loaded..   It could be unloaded and weigh 4000 pounds and have a GVW of 12000 that would mean you need a class A to pull the trailer..
thanksssssssss

Quote from: WEC4104 on October 22, 2008, 09:37:18 PM
John, you are absolutely correct. I had you crossed up with iminaccess, and thought you were the New Jersey owner driving his band around.  So, sorry.

Hey, don't worry about it. You have great insight and comments. Keep them coming!!!

Okay, so if we do need a CDL (I will check state regs again on that) would we have to abide by all of the rules? Not over ten hours of driving, log book, etc. If we had a slight fender bender would I have to go in for the drug tests, and the like. So I guess my question is, if you have a CDL, does that mean that one needs to abide by all of the rules.

About the Dot numbers. I sure don't know (again I will have to do some pretty through searching in the state regs), I would hate to have to get tangled in that spider web of papers and rules!!!


Enough for now, and thanks for all of the comments.

God bless,

John

I live in Texas and have a class c license. I have been checked twice and they were not anyproblems. Both times were highway patrol, once with border patrol and the other with Park rangers(U.S.). They were more worried about mu pistol being loaded and if I was transporting illegal aliens. I have a pd4905. Big John

At one point, I was looking into some CDL info for my state and came across an interesting paradox.

If I wanted to get a CDL in PA, I would need to take the road course test in a commercial vehicle. My GMC4104 is registered as a motorhome.  I am not 100% sure that it would be permissable to use it to take the test.

Perhaps I could leave a one dollar bill on the dash and tell the guy testing me that I was being paid to take the test, therefore at the time I am operating commercially.  ... but then again, would he fail me for not having DOT#s?    ... oh, nevermind.

The license needed is a NON commercial Class A for driving a bus over 40ft.  That means no log books, no signs on the bus, no DOT numbers, etc.  The main reason is to make sure you know the regulations, restrictions, and capabilities of both the air system, the length and the weight of the bus.  Before driving a bus, most non truck/bus driving people had not driven anything bigger than a full size van, or maybe a gas powered sticks and staples motorhome.  The government just wants to make sure you know what you're doing before getting out on the road (at least most of the time).   Good Luck, TomC

John if i am following you correct you are asking if you need a cdl to drive your coach that you own lisenced as a motorhome for your band??  Yes you can drive it with no cdl..  But the deal is if you get pulled over by the right cop and he thinks you are running it for a business he could give you trouble..  Second and most important if you get into an accident they will run the riot act on you and find out that you were using if for a business and not to drive to campgrounds on the weekend..  There again you would be considered a private coach not for hire..   I played in a band for 17 years and drove our bus for the band and we ran dot #..  i'm not a total expert..  but know federal guy really well and have learned a lot from him..
Thanks

The whole issue is that you can't trust the government lunatics at all.

IF you ask you will not get a consistent answer about a CDL. Mainly because you are asking "GOOBER"... Nobody knows the real answer so why keep asking.

If you are not commercial, advertising or making a profit from driving then you probably don't need a CDL and all the headaches that it can and probably will cause you.

CDL rules are very strict and don't allow for any discrepancies of any kind if you get caught slighly bending some obscure rule. Those rules for a CDL are national rules not just any particular state's rules. Some states have additional rules that may or may not apply and can get you into a lot of trouble because the "GOOBERS" have no idea how to interpret and apply the correct rule.

If you have a CDL you are under the microscope for the slightest infraction even when driving your personal car. The fines are 100 times worse than under a normal drivers license. You are expected to know all the rules and comply whether "GOOBER" even knows why he stopped you.

Motorhome, Private Coach, House Car, Travel Trailer - Whatever all don't need any CDL's in 99% of the places that you would go. BUUTT .. Put a sign on the side or can seat 15 passengers or more and you are commercial.

Put a sign on your cargo trailer and the CDL rules may apply in a lot of places and not apply anywhere else. The DOT numbers is yet another idiotic application of "GOOBER" Logic. Mostly for Interstate ( crossing state lines ). A local operation doesn't always need a DOT number but then again it depends on what "GOOBER" thinks at the moment. DOT numbers is a Tracking System.

I am an idiot so pay me no attention. I have seen these subjects worn out before...

DrDave-Reloaded, I hope you check back on this thread.

Thanks for all of the info.

More importantly, I may have missed this in recent topics, but how are you doing? I would like an update. Are you all back to normal, recovering slowly, quickly, almost well or what? I will keep praying for you. Let me know how you are.

God bless,

John

I am still alive. Don't know why.

My healing up is going to be a long bumpy road and in 6 to 8 months after my stomache closes up then I get to do it all again to reverse the ostomy and repair my stomach muscles they cut.

new Pacemaker/ICD was tested today.. Not a fun thing..But at least I don't have to go back for 6 months and get a remote monitor sent to me in a couple of weeks so they can check in on me....

Winter like weather is here now so my forageing for LP gas is sure to start soon.
Hope soon to find something other than the bus to live in that has better insulation. I have a couple people trying to locate a used and mostly free mobile home that I can get that will be better than what I have now.

My truck broke down last night so I have to find a way to get that running again and back home. seems I got some trashy diesel or sucked up a rabbit? Dunno..
If it weren't for bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all.....

Dave....

The "California Commercial Driver Handbook," distributed by the DMV enumerates, on the first page, what can be driven or towed with each class of license.   "With a Basic Class C License," it includes "any housecar 40' or less."  I am going to keep a copy of this handbook in the bus in case there is ever a need for verification.

This was a great thread.  Thank you all.  I was just thinking (again dangerous!) that in spite of all the silly and dumb rules and regulations, WE ARE, generally speaking, very very lucky to be able to conduct our Bus Conversion hobby and STILL come and go as we please.  Thanks again.  HB of CJ :) :) :)

HBofCJ, got to this before I could. ;D ;D ;D

Thanks for all for the answers. They were very insightful. I am in the process of looking at our regs for the state. I don't, think that we will have to get a comm CDL but I am still checking.

Thanks again for the great topic...

God bless,

John

There has been a lot of good infomation passed out in this thread but one thing needs to be mentioned and that is medical check ups are required annually to keep a cdl endorsement. How many of you actually get a complete phyisical every year? If you don't, your endorsment is null and void. I know this is in Florida so you may want to check your state for the same. Oh and it takes a doctor certificate, not just a paid doctor visit receipt!

Ace

Quote from: WEC4104 on October 22, 2008, 03:32:45 PM
My understanding is that your home state (New Jersey) sets the specific CDL requirements that would apply to you, and then you are "free to move about the country" based on adhering to your home state regs.

In NJ their regs state:

Are there any exemptions to being required to have New Jersey CDL?
Yes, a few . . .
1. Active Duty Military . . . with military licenses operating military vehicles.
2. Firefighters . . . meeting approved training standards and operating authorized emergency vehicles.
3. Farmers . . . in certain cases.
4. Individuals ....operating motor homes or other vehicles used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members, for non business purposes

The fact that #4 limits the motor home exemption to non business purposes tells me that a vehicle titled as an RV can still be required to have a CDL.

As I understand your previous posts, your vehicle is used extensively for out of state transportation of a band, and they do that for compensation.  What you tell the DMV when you registered it, and what you told your insurance company, is between you and them.  HOWEVER, should you have an accident or be stopped, the responsibility eventually rests with you.

I can understand HB of CJ not wanting to get a CDL for his vehicle used privately. Sounds like his truely is a non-commercial use however.   (Although I couldn't find any references to buses in the Constitution. Jefferson must have missed that one. ;))

Doug:  It is common practice for insurance companies to set different rates based on whether the driver is using their vehicle for "business use". However their determination of what constitutes "commercial" is entirely different than the Vehicle Code requirements for a CDL.

circus folk don't need cdl to drive their rv thoughit's work  related & hauling commercial equip. farmers don't even need any licernse within 200 miles of farm. weight or trailer do not mean cdl use of vehicle does .

Guys; the cdl's are a fed not a state program and all states are tied to the fed's data bank,another fed control over the states ,Canada and Mexico CDL holders are in that data bank also  

have a great day

the different classes a bc allowf or operation of different vehicle-types the cd scans you drive that type of vehicle or not nothing more nothing less this is not rocket-science... over 15 passangers means you need passenger endorsement but not a CDL -Again unless it's for profit. hence the word Commercial meaning being in Commerce or trade. if your using for personal, pleasure, or for a Nun profit group. you CAn Drive any vehicle type w/out CDL .There this Settles this once finally

Ace and MMA2S, thanks good points. I really appreciate all of your posts.

God bless,

John

Wrong there circus boy I am required by federal and state law in all states to have a class B CDL to drive my 450 Ford with a goose neck( Private) with total gvw over 26,001  .If you tow a trailer I don't care what you are towing it with over 10,000#GW the law requires you to have some type CDL it is not enforced on RV's but they can if they choose too seen it happen before in Utah  


have a great day

Quote from: circusboy90210 on October 27, 2008, 07:32:11 AM

circus folk don't need cdl to drive their rv thoughit's work  related & hauling commercial equip. farmers don't even need any licernse within 200 miles of farm. weight or trailer do not mean cdl use of vehicle does .

Personally, I am sceptical of all three of these statements.

1) Circus Folk...  I can believe a circus employee could probably get away with driving his personal RV from one location to another, without raising any eyebrows. But if he transporting circus equipment or other circus employee and is being compensated for it, I would deem that a commercial endeavor.

2) Farmers within 200 miles  That is a very broad statement.  I know there are some exceptions for farmers, and my earlier quote (in red) mentions that.  But I doubt that farmers are excluded from the need for any license within 200 miles. Might be true in some states.  Might apply when using farm equipment, or for agricultural purposes only.   

3) Weight or trailer does not mean CDL   I'll trust Makemineatwostoke's comment about the trailer.

I'd really be interested to see if a reliable source (aka: a reference website) could be produced to support the comments.  My earlier quote came from here:  http://www.cdl-course.com/faq-nj.html

Without something backing it up, it is just an opinion, not a fact.   Sorry, but adding "that settles it", doesn't count.

I hold cdl class a with air brakes, trailer & passenger endorsement. trailer does not mean cdl it means trailer endorsement with the appropraite weight class..... look @ your manual.

Come on guys, lets try to make sure that this stays nice.

Circusboy, first off they are right. We would like to see something that backs up your statements. According to my CDL manuel they are right. Holding a CDL W endorsements doesn't mean that one knows all of the rules. And some rules do change from state to state.

Second off. WEC4104, and Makemineatwostroke, have had great advice in the past, and have more "seniority" here if you will. They seem to have really well documented thoughts. I know in our state it requires a special "farm" license to move farm equipment on government roads.

That's just my thoughts...

God bless,

John

every state has different rules for what is and what is not considered commersial
i personaly went to the dmv office for the state i live in and had them hand me the rules and had them mark with a hilighter
clearly states for me that i can drive my greyhound converted to camper with out a cdl because its private
if i was to get something larger that had a bigger gvw i can get a document to carry with me that waves the cdl aslong as i pass the driving  cdl test and do not need to take the written test
basicly what u need to do if in doubt is go to your local dmv and make sure they give you on their letterhead the rules you need to argue with any backwoods cop that wants to argue that you do need a cdl
basicly every rule has a rule to over ride that rule and so on and its a good idea to have their rules to fight them incase the ineviatable cop stop

i personally do not want a cdl due to other things like logs and you give up the right to refusing searches and so on
oh and leagle limit for being drunk is lower with a cdl ,,,,even tho we all know ,,,dont drink and drive ;)
just my 2 cents

I think everyone here will agree that a private motorhome up to 40 feet, be it a stick 'n staple or a bus conversion, can be driven without a CDL anywhere in the country when you're hauling your own family.  Californication, naturally, requires you to get a non-commercial CDL if you're going to be driving a 45-foot rig.

The gray area is when there might be some form of compensation for the use of the vehicle.

Let's take "bus conversion" out of the picture for a moment, and just concentrate on a 40-foot Class A diesel pusher, be it a Monaco, Fleetwood, Winnebago, Newell, etc.  Doesn't matter, just picture the generic description.  Now let's ask ourselves if the following folk need a CDL:

~~ The gospel group that travels from church to church presenting concerts on Sunday morning, then accepts a "love offering" from the congregation?

~~ How about the folk who work the county fair circuit selling stainless steel cookware, towing a cargo trailer behind the Class A?  (Or kettlecorn, in Ace's case!)

~~ The farrier who provides his services at the various horse tracks around the country?

~~ The motivational speaker who presents training seminars for corporations from coast to coast?

~~ The fellow who moves these rigs between locations for a large RV dealership organization?

Pretty good examples of the gray area, right?  Enough to create additional fodder for this thread, that's for sure.

But take a look closely at how the CDL regs are written.  They basically say that if YOU, as the driver, are being compensated (i.e. paid) for operating a vehicle that falls under the definitions of a commercial vehicle, then YOU have to have a CDL with the proper endorsements for the type of commercial vehicle you're driving.  That's pretty cut 'n dried, state to state.

Two things here are what cause all the gray area and confusion: the definition of compensation and the definition of a commercial vehicle. 

One area that a jurisdiction might look at to determine if the vehicle you're driving is being used commercially is your tax records.  If you own the coach, and you are writing off all the expenses related to your coach, then a CDL may apply to you.

I will be the first to agree with many that this is a horse that's been beaten to death over and over again on these boards.  I'll also agree that we don't need more government snoopervision into our private affairs, there's enough as it is already.

However, as a long-time industry veteran, I would encourage folk to go by their local DMV office and pick up a copy of the CDL handbook and study it thoroughly, so that they have a better understanding of what's involved while operating these 12 - 28 ton beasts.  Getting together with a professional driver trainer can also be helpful - several hours spent with one can be well worth the investment.  I'm not saying you have to take the exams, just encouraging you to study.

I certainly don't have the answers, I wish it was a whole lot less muddied myself.

Oh, and for those who ask, yes, I still have my CA CDL Class B, with P & M endorsements, and I keep it current along with my medical card, even though I no longer work in the bus industry professionally.

FWIW & HTH . . .

;)


PS:  Somebody mentioned DUI levels - with a CDL, when you're behind the wheel of a commercial vehicle, the BAC for DUI is 0.04  - half of what it is for a passenger car (0.08).  And here in CA, if you're behind the wheel of a commercial rig, and your BAC comes up with a 0.01 - 0.03, the CHP will make you park the rig right now for 24 hours.  No excuses, it's parked, period.

Quote from: circusboy90210 on October 27, 2008, 01:39:11 PM
I hold cdl class a with air brakes, trailer & passenger endorsement. trailer does not mean cdl it means trailer endorsement with the appropraite weight class..... look @ your manual.

The manuals will vary from state to state. I think Illinois info is especially clear  (bold highlights by me):

1 Operators Required to Obtain a CDL

The Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1986 (CMVSA) requires an
operator of a commercial motor vehicle to obtain a commercial driver's
license (CDL). By federal rule, a commercial motor vehicle is defined as:
✗ Any combination of vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating
(GCWR) of 26,001 lbs. or more, providing the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating
(GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 lbs.
✗ Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 lbs. or more, or any such
vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 lbs.
✗ Any vehicle, regardless of size, designed to transport 16 or more
persons, including the driver.
✗ Any vehicle, regardless of size, required by federal regulations to be
placarded while transporting hazardous materials.
If the vehicle you intend to operate meets one of the above definitions and
does not fall into one of the exempt categories outlined below, you are
required to obtain a CDL. CDL Study Guides are available at all Driver
Services facilities, or www.cyberdriveillinois.com.

Operators Exempt from Obtaining a CDL
If the vehicle you intend to operate meets one of the following definitions,
you are not required to obtain a CDL.

Recreational Vehicle
When using a Recreational Vehicle primarily for personal use, you do not
need to obtain a CDL.

Firefighting Equipment Operator
Because most firefighting organizations have extensive initial training and
retraining requirements for their equipment operators, Illinois waives the
CDL requirements for operators of firefighting equipment owned or
operated by or for a governmental agency.

Military Vehicle
Operators of military vehicles for military purposes are exempt from
obtaining a CDL.

Farm Equipment Operator
This exemption is intended to cover legitimate farm-to-market operations
by farmers, not commercial grain haulers. CDLs are not required to operate
vehicles that are:
✗ controlled or operated by a farmer, a member of the farmer's family or
an employee
✗ used to transport farm products, equipment or supplies to or from a
farm
✗ used within 150 air miles of the farm, including nurseries and
aquacultures
✗ not used in the operations of a common or contract carrier
✗ used in nursery or agricultural operations
The farmer, his or her spouse and their children, parents on both sides,
brothers and sisters on both sides and their spouses operating a trucktractor
semitrailer and meeting the above criteria also are exempt from the
CDL Program. These drivers must be age 21 or over, and the vehicle must
have farm plates. These drivers are still required to take the appropriate
CDL written, skills and road tests to be licensed.

Emergency Snow Removal Vehicles
An employee of a township or road district with a population of less than
3,000 operating a vehicle to remove snow or ice from roadways within the
township or district does not have to have a CDL when an employee is
needed to operate the vehicle because the employee who ordinarily
operates the vehicle is unable to do so or is in need of additional
assistance due to a snow emergency.

It defines the weight classes, and says if you aren't meeting an exempt criteria, you need a CDL.... period.  It speaks specifically to the topic of RV needing to be primarily for personal use, which I think any rational person would interpret to mean not for compensation.  I didn't see a circus exclusion.  Also, the farm exclusions are pretty restrictive, as I suspected in my previous post.

Here's my reference source.    http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_x14210.pdf  

You guys need to go to Oklahoma and read what classifies as a commercial vehicle it can be from a VW bug up just about all pickups are classified as commercial but require no CDL to operate.I dropped the GVW on my truck and trailer to 26,000# in Texas to stay away from the CDL B they are required above 26,000# private or commercial trucks but not RVs.Here in Arizona by law you don't qualify for the $.08 gal off at the fuel pumps if your are over 26,000# and 2 axles I never heard of anyone being fined but with the tax revenue down it will happen sooner or later  good luck

Quote

RULES OF
TENNESSEE DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
DIVISION OF DRIVER LICENSE ISSUANCE
CHAPTER 1340-1-13
CLASSIFIED AND COMMERCIAL DRIVERS LICENSES
AND TEMPORARY DRIVER LICENSES

1340-1-13
(9) Commercial Motor Vehicle means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in
commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle:

• (a) has a gross vehicle weight rating (G.V.W.R.) or gross combination weight rating
  (G.C.W.R.) in excess of twenty-six thousand (26,000) pounds;
• (b) is designed to transport more than fifteen (15) passengers, including the driver;
• (c) is of any size and used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the
  purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act, 49 U.S.C. App. 1801 et seq.,
  and which must be placarded, under the Hazardous Materials Regulations 49 C.F.R. §
  172.500 et seq. (1993); or
• (d) is used as a school bus.

The operative phrase being "used in commerce to transport passengers or property".  If it is not for commerce, the other conditions don't come in to play.  Likewise, due to the "IF", vehicles used in commerce that don't meet the requirements following it are not defined as "Commercial Vehicles."

Quote55-1-104. "Farm tractor," "motor home," "truck" and "truck tractor" defined. —

• (1) "Farm tractor" means every motor vehicle designed and used primarily as a farm implement, for drawing plows,
  mowing machines, and other implements of husbandry;
• (2) "Motor home" means every motor vehicle which is designed, constructed (either originally by the manufacturer or
  rebuilt by another) and equipped as a dwelling place, living abode or sleeping place;
• (3) "Truck" means every motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property;
  and
• (4) "Truck tractor" means every motor vehicle designed and used primarily for drawing other vehicles and not so
  constructed as to carry a load other than a part of the weight of the vehicle and load so drawn.
  [Acts 1951, ch. 70, § 3 (Williams, § 5538.103); 1974, ch. 525, § 1; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), § 59-104.]

Likewise in the U.S. Code:

U.S. Code
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+49USC31301

QuoteTitle 49

  Subtitle VI -- Motor Vehicle and Driver Programs

     Part B -- Commercial

   Chapter 313 -- Commercial Motor Vehicle Operators

Sec. 31301

        (2) "commerce" means trade, traffic, and transportation
            (A) in the jurisdiction of the United States between a place
        in a State and a place outside that State (including a place
        outside the United States); or
            (B) in the United States that affects trade, traffic, and
        transportation described in subclause (A) of this clause.

        (3) "commercial driver's license'' means a license issued by a
    State to an individual authorizing the individual to operate a class
    of commercial motor vehicles.

        (4) "commercial motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle used in
            commerce to transport passengers or property that--
            (A) has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle
                weight of at least 26,001 pounds, whichever is greater, or a
                lesser gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight the
                Secretary of Transportation prescribes by regulation, but not
                less than a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,001 pounds;
            (B) is designed to transport at least 16 passengers
                including the driver; or
            (C) is used to transport material found by the Secretary to
                be hazardous under section 5103 of this title, except that a
                vehicle shall not be included as a commercial motor vehicle
                under this subclause if--
                (i) the vehicle does not satisfy the weight requirements
                    of subclause (A) of this clause;
                (ii) the vehicle is transporting material listed as
                     hazardous under section 306(a) of the Comprehensive
                     Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of
                     1980 (42 U.S.C. 9656(a)) and is not otherwise regulated by
                     the Secretary or is transporting a consumer commodity or
                     limited quantity of hazardous material as defined in section
                     171.8 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations; and
                (iii) the Secretary does not deny the application of
                      this exception to the vehicle (individually or as part of a
                      class of motor vehicles) in the interest of safety.

And FMCSA:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=390.5

Quote§390.5 Definitions.
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=658.5

Quote§658.5 Definitions.
Commercial Motor Vehicle. For purposes of this regulation, a motor vehicle designed or regularly used to carry freight, merchandise, or more than ten passengers, whether loaded or empty, including buses, but not including vehicles used for vanpools, or recreational vehicles operating under their own power.

Awesome documentation!!! I can tell that you all have done a lot of work looking up regs. Thanks. They really have helped. I also agree with RJ. Working or riding with a pro driver is huge. Getting the CDL book and studying it is also very helpful. I know it has helped my driving style greatly.

Thanks again,

God bless,

John

John316; this has nothing to do with CDL's but you should read some of the laws in different states pertaining to RV's in some states a RV can not be over 96 inches wide and some states require RV's to stop at weigh stations some require any towed vehicle to stop check it out at www.woodalls.com/output.cfm?ID=1195129  have a great day (pay attention to the state that has 43ft 6 inch length and the states about the propane)

FLORIDA STATUTE


322.53  License required; exemptions.--

(1)  Except as provided in subsection (2), every person who drives a commercial motor vehicle in this state is required to possess a valid commercial driver's license issued in accordance with the requirements of this chapter.

(2)  The following persons are exempt from the requirement to obtain a commercial driver's license:

(a)  Drivers of authorized emergency vehicles.

(b)  Military personnel driving vehicles operated for military purposes.

(c)  Farmers transporting farm supplies or farm machinery within 150 miles of their farm, or transporting agricultural products to or from the first place of storage or processing or directly to or from market, within 150 miles of their farm.

(d)  Drivers of recreational vehicles, as defined in s. 320.01.

(e)  Drivers who operate straight trucks, as defined in s. 316.003, that are exclusively transporting their own tangible personal property which is not for sale.

(f)  An employee of a publicly owned transit system who is limited to moving vehicles for maintenance or parking purposes exclusively within the restricted-access confines of a transit system's property.

(3)  Notwithstanding subsection (2), all drivers of for-hire commercial motor vehicles are required to possess a valid commercial driver's license issued in accordance with the requirements of this chapter.

*********************************************


322.54  Classification

(a)  Any person who drives a motor vehicle combination having a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more must possess a valid Class A driver's license, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle being towed is more than 10,000 pounds. Any person who possesses a valid Class A driver's license may, subject to the appropriate restrictions and endorsements, drive any class of motor vehicle within this state.

(b)  Any person, except a person who possesses a valid Class A driver's license, who drives a motor vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more must possess a valid Class B driver's license. Any person, except a person who possesses a valid Class A driver's license, who drives such vehicle towing a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less must possess a valid Class B driver's license. Any person who possesses a valid Class B driver's license may, subject to the appropriate restrictions and endorsements, drive any class of motor vehicle, other than the type of motor vehicle for which a Class A driver's license is required, within this state.

(c)    Any person, except a person who possesses a valid Class A or a valid Class B driver's license, who drives a motor vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 26,001 pounds and who is required to obtain an endorsement pursuant to paragraph (1)(b), paragraph (1)(c), or paragraph (1)(e) of s. 322.57, must possess a valid Class C driver's license. Any person who possesses a valid Class C driver's license may, subject to the appropriate restrictions and endorsements, drive any class of motor vehicle, other than the type of motor vehicle for which a Class A or a Class B driver's license is required, within this state.

Then we have New York (YO how're doin?) that has any vehicle over 19,500gvw as a class B.  Bottom line, check with your state and what license you have.  Good Luck, TomC

FWIW, I just now got my license renewed and my new license says on the back:

"Any non-commercial vehicle with a GVWR less than 26,001 lbs. or any RV

I guess I'm ok with my bus being a RV! ;)

Ace

Quote from: Blacksheep on October 29, 2008, 12:50:28 PM
FWIW, I just now got my license renewed and my new license says on the back:

"Any non-commercial vehicle with a GVWR less than 26,001 lbs. or any RV

I guess I'm ok with my bus being a RV! ;)

Ace

Florida is also among the silly states.

In their license bureau handbook it shows a picture of an RV ( 2-axles ) Class A
and it says that is an RV or Motorhome. The next picture is of a Bus/Conversion with ( 3-axles ) It is NOT an RV or Motorhome it is a "Private Coach" which except for the 3-axles is treated as a Class A ( RV/Motorhome ). Same Class just different term used for title purposes. The weight does'nt seem to be a factor according to the title issuance if you meet the RV/Motorhome or Private Coach designation.

That would in essence say that no matter how much it weighs as long as the RV/Motorhome/Private Coach is properly tagged and titled the 26,000 lbs rating does not apply to the drivers license needed to drive it. Except if it is used commercially in any way for revenue or income. Then the whole issue blows up again because all the rules change depending on point of view.

That is pretty much normal for most states and areas that most of us would be going in our buses/RV's and such.

I would worry more that eventually all licensed drivers will need current medical cards just to be legal to drive anything. In some places it is in effect but that depends on local or state laws.

I heard that truck drivers were going to probably be screened tighter for medical reasons if they pass new laws for CDL's, Where does it stop???...

Thank your lucky stars that we can operate what we have and continue to fall into those "GREY" areas legally.

I've always assumed that if I'm legal in the state I'm registered, I can drive in any other state legally. Does anyone know if this is a correct assumption or not? Thanks, Will

Quote from: PP on October 29, 2008, 05:04:45 PM
I've always assumed that if I'm legal in the state I'm registered, I can drive in any other state legally. Does anyone know if this is a correct assumption or not? Thanks, Will

That is my understanding also, but that probably does not mean I am correct.  Jack

I came across the following site which lists a state-by-state breakdown of licensing reciprocity, as it applies to motorhomes. Also provides a summary of types of licenses needed for different weight classes and towing.

http://www.ywip.com/rv07.pdf

Thanks Wec4104. That site was great.

God bless,

John