Does anybody know of a trailer hitch for a MCI DL3? We need one with a tong capacity of 2000 lbs and a towing capacity of 14000 lbs (it could be some less but that is what our trailer is rated for). We were told that we would have to have one fabricated. We would preferably like a ball hitch, because I thought a pintle hitch would be a little worse ride with the "slop" in the hitch. Do you all have any ideas? Ordinarily we wouldn't have the trailer loaded to maximum lbs, but it isn't inconceivable that we would max it out eventually. I like things that are over built, not something that would just barely do the job.
Any input, ideas, comments, or questions?
Thanks in advance,
God bless,
John
What you are asking is a bit much. The bus structure (no frame) wasn't designed to support that much weight back there. It sounds like a 'Kingsley coach' type might be more of what you need.
http://www.kingsleycoach.com/
A truck is designed to handle that load with less fuss.
That said, what you are asking is possible to do properly, but will require lots of reinforcement in areas that aren't readily accessable.
If you are lucky enough to find one, do be carefull & make sure it is suitable for your needs.
If you do a search on "hitch" you will get a ton of hits.
One of the most recent is: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=9731.msg97794#msg97794
While folks will tell you they have towed a trailer that big, I really doubt you will get away with it for very long.
Read the threads and you will see a lot of comments you should consider.
In the thread above, I mention a page on my website where I discuss my concerns.
If you can't find it, let me know.
Jim
John; don't let these guys scare you about a hitch the Prevost XL doesn't have a frame and Prevost installs 20,000# hitches on those from the factory have a great day
Not trying to scare him away, just let him know this task is not to be taken lightly.
If prevo is offering hitches from the factory, that means it was engineered & not just tacked on by someone who knows how to strike an arc.
Does MCI offer a factory hitch?
I'd really rather not encourage someone to do something without including some warnings of possible pitfalls. Knowledge is power & mistakes cost money.
No sense in spending $$ on mistakes already made . . . 8)
I don't think he should be scared at all. Careful? maybe. The Numbers he is working with is pretty small when considering the weight of the vehicle. I have looked several times at making a hitch to hold that kind of weight on a MCI. I think it is very doable, just don't skimp on material and try and tie things together as far as you can practically reach in the coach. The tongue weight is not going to be the problem, its the weight of the trailer pulling on the frame and actually trying to make the entire rear of the coach "rack". That is what causes the cracks that I have seen in the MCI engine bay chassis, and they don't even have a hitch. It is again very doable, just keep in mind what forces are going to be exerted.
Anyone can make a hitch that won't break, but installing it so the bus won't break is quite another matter. I know that when I wanted a fabricator to install a manufactured hitch assembly just to use for flat towing a Suzuki, the engineer down-rated and re-plakarded the hitch to the minimum necessary to do the job (here, to be legal, the entire rig - bus, towbar, hitch, a-frame and toad must be certified as a unit). He was quite concerned that the design of the entire rear of the bus - while adequate - did not leave a big margin for adding stuff.
Adding a tongue weight of 2000lb with that length of leverage would close to equal the forces generated by the engine itself.
OK folks. There are always two schools of thought when it comes to hitches and large trailers. This happens on every thread on the subject.
I am the first to acknowledge that the OEMs (Prevost and I think MCI) had a large capacity trailer hitch option. As was pointed out, those are engineered packages. I think (no direct knowledge) that these packages are a fairly recent option (perhaps last 5 years). My guess is that they do this for the conversion/entertainer market. But some of the buses we are talking about are pre-engineered hitch options.
When I talk about my concerns of towing a large trailer, I do not concern myself with the hitch itself. That is no big deal and a good fabricator can do a great job. What concerns me is the original bus structure capability, ***AND*** the affects of age. Age can do two things to the structure. First of all, the structure undergoes fatigue over the years and the present structure does not have the strength of the original. Secondly, my major concern is the affect of corrosion on the tubing structure. This is not just an Eagle issue!
If you are going to hang that beast on the back of your bus, at least do some testing on the structural tubing. Take a sharp awl and a small hammer and see how strong the tubing is. First test it at the top of the compartment and then test the tubing down close to the engine rails. If the structure is weaker at the bottom, it is a fairly staight forward to "double" the tubing (add a second tube to each existing tube and tie it all together with GOOD welds.
From an engineering standpoint, it is relatively easy to analyze the static loading to the structure. What is very hard to do, and completely frightening, is to analyze the DYNAMIC loads. If you have traveled our worn out interstates you can begin to appreciate the terrible dynamic loading the goes on.
Jim
Let me add that this is not just a bus issue. There are some fairly scary stories of medium to top level motorhomes (who have frame rails) that have had frame failures. I have a good friend who had a pretty pricey motorhome and pulled a stacker trailer. The trailer was not that heavily loaded (two small race cars and support equipment). He used a good hitch and strong equalizer hitch. I would guess the coach had less the 100k miles when the transmission failed. As they started to remove the transmission they found that the case was cracked. As they looked farther they discovered that one frame rail was cracked most of the way through and the second rail was cracked part way through.
People have been using hitches on the Prevost and other buses long before they were a option as a kid I can remember Greyhound towing trailers behind GM buses and the stars towing trailers behind Eagles and as for as being a engineered hitch you should look at one and keep in mind that some of the worst disasters in modern times have come for engineering along with some of the best ideas.And yes MCI does offer a hitch for their conversion shells along with slides have a great day
I was given a hitch from a MC9 from a charter company, the one up here buys used buses and they often come with hitches installed, they remove and pitch them cause bob (the owner) caught one of his drivers with a boat on a trailer coming back thru wisconsin, the guy had bought it and just hooked it on lol, so now he removes them and pitches them, he gave me one. I had a quality fab shop modify it for my eagle but they checked the frame completely before they would install it. They did a couple of things that I'm not sure were needed but I figured was a good idea, they gusseted several spots that they said were ok but they wanted to keep ok and they used 1/2 inch by 5 inch bar stock for crossers, the frame rails are different distance apart on an eagle. After they got done bolting it in they said it would tow a sherman tank, not sure I'll ever have the need to tow a sherman tank but I actually did see one at an auction once, if I had my bus back then I could have towed it. Would have made an interesting picture of how to discourage tailgaters lol, thing is I'd certainly make sure a quality shop that had a good handle on the framing logistics of a bus do the work just to be safe, remember, anything can be done with the right preparation and checkbook.
Right on Cody,you go boy!
You might also want to take a look at one of these units.
WVaNative
Quote from: John316 on October 20, 2008, 04:05:26 PM
Does anybody know of a trailer hitch for a MCI DL3? We need one with a tong capacity of 2000 lbs and a towing capacity of 14000 lbs (it could be some less but that is what our trailer is rated for). We were told that we would have to have one fabricated. We would preferably like a ball hitch, because I thought a pintle hitch would be a little worse ride with the "slop" in the hitch. Do you all have any ideas? Ordinarily we wouldn't have the trailer loaded to maximum lbs, but it isn't inconceivable that we would max it out eventually. I like things that are over built, not something that would just barely do the job.
Any input, ideas, comments, or questions?
Thanks in advance,
God bless,
John
Ball hitches are usually rated at 10,000 lbs for the hefty ones. The problem that I could see with a 14,000 lb trailer is the stress on your transmission and drive train of the bus.
It would sound like you are also planning on heavy loading?? on the bus which doesn't leave much capacity for dragging a trailer.
Sounds more like it would be cheaper in the long run to get a Freightliner FL60 to pull the trailer and additional support equipment. Even a Ford super duty or Dodge 3500 would be a better deal and use a gooseneck hitch system rated for the capacity that you need.
I didn't see where you figured the brakes into the deal either. Air or Electro-Hydraulics would be needed for a 14k load. Electrics would not be a good choice.
Pie in the Sky....
Enjoy...
Dr. Dave is hitting on something that may need some research...how much weight can be legally towed on a 'tag-along' ball type hitch?
I believe it'll be about 10K for tags and 14K for goosenecks (2 5/16). A pintle hitch has a much higher capacity, but sloppy and noisy.
An MCI D doesn't have a 'frame' per se in the engine compartment. The engine is hanging in a cantilevered tube enclosure.
It was not designed for anywhere near the tongue weight you are looking for. The bus would easily pull the load, but the load cannot be safely distributed on the tail of the bus.
The hitches that MCI offered are for toads (zero vertical tongue weight), and small mail trailers that were commonly used in Canada. MCI would be a good place to start with questions on a DL towing capacity. They'll give good answers...the same answers that will be offered in a court should an accident occur.
The load you describe will require some sort of attachments foward of the transmission so as to transmit the accel and braking loads into the drivetrain frame.
A vertical tongue weight of 2K lbs leveraged 10' from the suspension centerline is going to be problematic.
It's probably doable, but it will be an engineering feat. And not without some liability exposure.
The bus frame will be loaded beyond its design limits. On smooth highways, you may get by with this for quite some time.
At a minimum, the rear engine supports should be inspected for cracks and other damage on a regular basis.
A dolly won't work on a bus due to the extreme overhang and the weight of the bus. The hitch will ground whenever the bus is driven over low places. For this reason, keep the hitch as tight against the lower bumper aspect as is possible. The lack of clearance will preclude using weight distributing hitches too. The torque arms would be damaged whenever the bus goes over a low place. Same's true for trailer landing gear.
Remember that the engine is removed from the rear in MCIs. The bumper and tie bar are removed to pull the engine. Don't build anything that cannot be unbolted and removed.
Good luck with your challenge...JR
Your "other" option would be to use a Fifth-Wheel like those used on double trailers, No tongue load, No backing up, and air brakes on the fifth-wheel dolly unit. Then the only worry would be torque transfer to the back end of the bus.
One last thing. Length Bus+Trailer. If it is over 65 feet in most places you could get a ticket. Commercial trucks maybe can get away with the over length deal but a long bus with a long trailer may be a problem in some places.
I have seen Entertainer buses with 30 foot+ trailers. Not something that you would want to try to drive in a confined space.
You would also need multiple Rear view cameras to watch the trailer and what is behind it. But then again what motivates you may be different than what worries me. I prefer safety over convenience and the $25,000 transmission replacement.
OK, I will shut up now...
FWIW; a class 9 ball hitch is rated for 30,000 lbs with 3500 lbs tongue weight and goose neck hitches are up to 60,000 lbs .I saw a J 4500 MCI in Vegas with one of these hitches and the trailer looked to be in the 30ft range
www.yourtrailerhitch.com
have a great day
Thanks for all of the input.
I will look very seriously at this issue. I will run through some of the things hit and miss as I remember them.
First off I don't think that the fifth wheel extra tire deal will work for us. I have a friend that was pulling a 20k triple axle trailer with an Excursion. He tried using one of these but found them to be to big of a hassle with backing, turning, and he couldn't keep tires on it. Does anyone here have any experience with one?
The hitch that is on our bus now will be a job to get off. The guy we bought the bus from WELDED it onto the frame :( :( :(. That hitch is only rated for 1,000 tongue and 8k towing. The thing that we have to be most careful of, is not damaging the frame as we cut/grind that hitch off.
Our trailer is a tandem axle (7K axles) 16 ft X 102 in. We used to pull it (fully loaded) with a diesel twelve passenger van. It has electric brakes. I know those brakes work very well, because the trailer would slow the van down when stopping (depending what the power was that was dialed into the driver controller). So I am not concerned about the brakes on it.
As far as rear cameras. We have a one on the back of the bus now and have the accessory's for the trailer install.
One concern I have is the ground clearance. Seems like it will ground out a lot. I was wondering about building it into the bumper (maybe not as aesthetically pleasing, I know, but...), and bolting it in so the engine can be removed.
Also we tend to get into some really tight places with just the bus. I'm wondering what will happen with the trailer to compound the problem. I have looked at an electric trailer movable dollies like the one below. Does anybody have experience with one of these?
http://www.powercaster.com/Products.html
Whew,
Thanks, any more input would be great.
God bless,
John
P.S. DrDave-Reloaded, keep it coming. Your posts are great!!!
I had one break at a bad weld on I-95 at night @65mph.
1000 lb tongue 6k trailer. ( I goofed basically)
It all stayed together but could have been ugly...
DrDave-Reloaded,
That sure is something I would like to avoid!!! Thanks for the caution.
God bless,
John