Hey Guys,
I just want to fire this past you as I can use some ideas on why my ol'girl won't start. Dallas is also thinking on it and I will be talking to another mechanic today sometime. I am about 5 hours from home and was wondering if anyone else might have some input. I figure the more heads the better. (I'm using a computer at a county fairgrounds)
What it does is when you hit the starter, it just HITS! Kinda like the motor is locked up or the starter jumping into a bind. Bang! But it just hits and hits hard nd won't turn.
Here's a brief history:
Dallas just got done rebuilding the 8V71 3 days ago. I think it went well and she seemed to run great coming out here. (about 300 miles, give or take) When I got here and parked her, the fuel shut off would not shut her down. We tried several times, but it actually just revved the motor up. I finally had to use the emergency stop.
Also while rebuilding it, we had to replace the end bolts in the starter (5- 1/4 bolts that hold the starter together) as there were only two holding, 1 missing and 2 sheared. But it seemed to be fine and started the bus fine while we were at my place working on it. We also cleaned the armature and greased it.
I got Dallas on the phone a little while ago and he had me try to turn the motor over by hand, using the fan. (by the way, it's an automatic) I could M-A-Y-B-E turn it about 3 inches (Top of the fan blade) and that was all I could get out of it. I hit the starter again and it seemed to only go back that far again and BANG. Dead stop. I tried the starter a couple times but each time it just hits hard. I don't want to mess something up, so I don't want to try again till I have tried something to fix the problem.
I'm not sure what else I can tell you and I know this isn't much to go on. (sorry) I don't have real good access to this computer but I will check back in a little while if I can. If you have any ideas......... I'm all ears!! And that is the best way to get ahold of me - my cell phone: (812) 212-2222
Any ideas or insight would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanx for the thoughts,
Chaz
If you have Dallas helping you, you are already getting better advice than I can give, but that will not stop me from trying. My first guess is that the starter is not aligned properly, the gear is popping out like it should but obstructed and is not meshing. Hence it clanks and does not turn the engine.
A Hazzard Guess is that you have a stuck injector that has flooded one cylinder.
That would explain the non-shutdown issue.
What you may have is a hydraulic lockup on one cylinder.
You may have to locate the bad one and pull the injector to release the fuel out of the cylinder and then replace or fix the problem.
Dave....
Quote from: DrDave-Reloaded on October 18, 2008, 01:51:17 PM
A Hazzard Guess is that you have a stuck injector that has flooded one cylinder.
That would explain the non-shutdown issue.
What you may have is a hydraulic lockup on one cylinder.
You may have to locate the bad one and pull the injector to release the fuel out of the cylinder and then replace or fix the problem.
Dave....
That be my guess...If you can counter clockwise at least 90° turn to release excess fluid through the port holes. Then try turning clockwise by hand until one full turn to avoid blown head gasket if using the starter.
It may not be it.
If not the above....remove bottom inspection cover of bell house for a bolt or nut to bind between ring gear and housing. Or torque converter's bolt maybe out to bind? ? ?
Keep us posted of your finding.
Give Dallas a few moment of time to think and he will have the answer.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Everyone,
Just got off the phone with Chaz, he told me to let everyone know that he tried to turn it over manually and nothing backward or
forward. Said Dallas was heading out Sunday morining to help!
Steve 5B..........
Check the pan for fuel or water. Sounds like its hydraulicked.
Hi, Chaz.
If the starter is the cause, the sheared and missing bolts might be a clue. While applying power to a motor that has the proper clearance between the armature and the field pieces will cause it to put out a lot of power, if the clearance between the parts is lost to the point that they touch, you would have very little torque.
If the bolts came loose or broke, the clearance may have been lost. The same things happens when the bushings wear out. Current climbs drastically while cranking effort falls way down.
From what you've said about not being able to roll the engine over, the above probably doesn't apply. Dallas will probably get it figured out soon enough.
I wish you the best of luck getting your coach going.
Tom Caffrey
I spoke with Chaz last night and he said they pulled the starter and tried to bar the engine by hand but couldn't get it to move, although it had moved by pulling on the fan a few hours earlier.
I'm not sure that it's a hydraulic problem since it was running with good oil pressure and correct temp for a couple of hundred miles. I also assume that Chaz checked the oil and radiator, since I had asked him to earlier in the day to make sure all was well before starting.
I also have my doubts about a seizing problem because the engine was running so well before shutdown.
My guess, and it's jut a WAG, is that we have a mechanical malfunction, possibly from the lower end, but I doubt it. The new bearings I installed were well within spec when I plastigaged them. A couple of things do stick in my mind however.. the air compressor is worn out and leaking oil into the air system. It could possibly have seized which would prevent the engine from turning. The other thing that comes to mind is that the engine was shut down via the E-flap, it may have sucked something in to the blower lobes, which are stopping the engine from turning over. Also it may have lost the quill shaft on the blower with the same effect.
I think I have an idea what the engine non-shutdown problem is caused by, but won't know until I pull the forward valve cover.
Right now all is conjecture until I can actually look at the engine ad check things out.
We'll be leaving here around 8 or 9 this morning after filling our water tanks and loading some stuff we didn't get to last night.
Wish Chaz a lot of luck, He's had a rough go of it wiyh this bus so far.
Dallas
probably a gear train problem like Dallas said if the bus has a rear mounted oil cooled alternator that is great place to start they will lock a engine up have a great day
Dallas, you have my number if I can be of any help. :)
Just a short update so far...
We arrived here about 14:30 and even before getting parked I pulled the far rocker cover.. sure enough the engine shut down problem was because of the rack rod from the governor rubbing against a newly installed bolt and nut. The nut is too thick and caused interference. As soon as I removed the nut, the rack went to the fully closed position. That's one probem down.
I next pulled the blower air intake cover and looked inside, no sign of damage other than normal wear and tear on a 30 year old set of rotors. The new blower seals I installed are doing their jobs and cleaning up the old oil on the rotors.
Thanks MMA2S,
That was one of my thoughts too. Tomorrow I'll be pulling the compressor, power steering pump and the alternator one at a time to see if any is locked up, or if the quill has broken. If it's not one of those usual suspects, I suppose I'll need to pull the oil pan again and see if anything has come loose or gotten caught up in the drive gear. Not a job I'm looking forward too.. I'm too old and fat to remove oil pans more than once per overhaul.
One piece of encouraging news, when I hit the starter switch, the engine will turn the fan about 3/4" at the blade tip, which in my mind means we aren't seized anywhere.. something is blocking something else.
Thanks Sammy,
You also have my phone number, so if you need to, you can ignore my incessant whining about these dratted 2 strokes! LOL
If I'm overlooking anything that should be obvious, please let me know. I've been awake mostly since Chaz called the first time yesterday, and am a bit punchy, trying to figure out what is probably a simple deductive process. No matter how many of these I do, I always agonize over every little thing that goes wrong.
Dallas
At present in Stoy, Illinois.
Hey Guys,
Just got a chance to sit down at my own 'puter to write.
As Dallas said, it's been a bit of a trying time............. to say the least. And on top of it, the tow truck driver, who in my mind is a waste of my oxygen, tried to "skin me" for an extra 275.oo !!!!!!!! He only towed me about 7 miles but wasted about 1 1/2 hours hooking me up. (It actually took about 2 1/2 hours)
Dallas did call me earlier and told me he found the problem............ a cracked piston and liner. :'( We're hoping that the place he got them from will back them up. What a drag!!
Dallas is going to keep me up to date and hopefully things will work out. But..... if you know someone interested in a 4108............................ ::)
Thanx for all of your thoughts. I do appreciate it!
Chaz
Chaz; most of the after market parts have a better warranty than DD parts they have 2 years and DD has 1 year.Don't think for a minute Dallas did anything wrong that will happen now all the new pistons and liners have so little clearance, back in the days they had .012 now it is .002 and shipping the set laying on the sides doesn't help any it can be out of round and you will never know. have a great day
Yup, Chaz is correct,
The #3R piston looks like the skirt on it grenaded just as he was trying to start it back up. Pieces of shrapnel all over the oil pan, chunks of rings, sides of the liner, piston parts here and there, even the connecting rod to wrist pin bolts. (Crosshead pistons).
I got the head off today, and the valves and injector look just peachy, so at least there isn't that damage. Tomorrow after it warms up a bit, I'll pull the rod and liner and various chunks that are left lingering.
The good people at PC Industries ( http://www.powerlinecomponents.com/index.html ) are indicating that they will cover the parts. I've been dealing with them off and on for over 25 years and have had good luck with them.
And MMA2S is right, they do have a 2 year warranty as opposed to DD's 12 month limited liability warranty. PCI's parts are mostly Federal Mogul and FelPro, but still stamped made in the USA.
PCI also sells genuine DD parts, if you want them, but I've been happier with the Store brand.
Dallas
By your discription it still looks like a hydraulic possibility caused by the open injectors.>>>Dan
Ouch!!!! No matter what caused it.....
Quote from: Dallas on October 20, 2008, 06:23:37 PM
The #3R piston looks like the skirt on it grenaded just as he was trying to start it back up. Dallas
Dallas,
What do think caused the piston to explode at crankingt RPM? Leaking injector or ?? Were these his orginal injectors or rebuilt units? Jack
Thanks for asking Jack,
I kind of misspoke when I posted that..
It actually looks as if the liner was a bad casting, and broke all the way around the liner ports.. when the crank brought the rod down, it ripped the wrist pin bolts out of the wrist pin. When the rod came back up, it took out a chunk of the bottom of the liner and then moved on up to wedge itself under the piston skirt which wedged itself cockeyed against the liner at the top of the stroke. It didn't get far enough to hurt the injector tip or valves as far as I can tell.
This had to have happened at the first turn over after the engine was shut down... the damage done would have stopped the engine in the middle of the road and although the rod is damaged, and I am asking the company for a new one, which is only fair, I would play with it, clean it up and use it in my engine if I needed to. I wouldn't put it in a customer engine because it isn't perfect.
I'll send some pictures of the damage....
Quote from: JackConrad on October 22, 2008, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: Dallas on October 20, 2008, 06:23:37 PM
The #3R piston looks like the skirt on it grenaded just as he was trying to start it back up. Dallas
Dallas,
What do think caused the piston to explode at crankingt RPM? Leaking injector or ?? Were these his orginal injectors or rebuilt units? Jack
More pictures.
If you notice the end of the bolt on the left, it looks like it was pulled from the wrist pin.
The bottom of the liner.. I had to beat the bottom and the top and the piston out a few millimeters at a time, I mostly used a hard wood 1"X1" stick and a hydraulic jack, until I got to the bottom side of the liner.. then I had to beat all of it out by hand with a 1" steel rod and a 3 pound miners hammer.
Dallas, dollar to a donut it was cracked around the ports from shipping,a leaking injector won't cause that and I would check the height of liner to block again we have all been guilty of just checking a few FWIW I use a tea spoon and tap each one checking for cracks (old School) have a great day
On that particular piston, I did check the liner height.. It was off by a bit so we ordered a standard liner insert that brought it to the correct height. The previous insert was a .002 overheight, (I think), I also had 2 liner inserts that were cracked.. whoulda thunk?
Now we get to pay for the parts, and send the bad parts back to PCI where they will take pictures and send to Fed. Mogul, who will determine the cause of the problem.
Dallas
Quote from: makemineatwostroke on October 22, 2008, 01:22:41 PM
Dallas, dollar to a donut it was cracked around the ports from shipping,a leaking injector won't cause that and I would check the height of liner to block again we have all been guilty of just checking a few have a great day
New update: The replacement parts were finally ordered today. They should be here in 5-6 days. Until then Dallas and I are cleaning old gaskets off the oil pan, air compressor,and thermostat housings. He is forcing me to get my dainty little fingers dirty while cleaning parts. We are expecting a heavy rain here the next day or two so we will be forced to stay inside a bit. We are hoping to find a campground where we can dump our tank which is full and have enough power to run both heaters. The wind has been blowing so hard here that we barely got up to 70 inside the bus yesterday and that was with the sun shining on us. I'm a bit of a wimp and would love to be able to turn on the other heater and even plug in the water heater. Washing in cold water is no fun. The folks here are really nice but we know we are in the way since it is harvest time. Hopefully when the parts arrive we will have good weather so we can get Chaz back up and running quickly.
If the liner had been cracked, I would expect to discoloration on the broken ends. I think you had a piston failure and the piston bound in the liner and pulled the liner in two.
those failures are hard to figure out what caused it, could a wrist pin seal came lose and the piston seized never know. I have a 471 in a Link Belt dragline that is used around the place and every 3 years like a clock it will pull the #2 liner and I have had this engine re bored, line bored, and counter bores redone and it still happens.problem now is they are making parts that are to close in tolerance for the old 2 stroke my thinking. good luck Dalllas and have a great day
Dallas
Some weird happenings there how many miles did it make after rebuild??
Results will be interesting to hear if they can determine what gave up.
Now you know where the old saying came from S&*&t happens.
Larry H
Larry,
The engine went a total of about 250 miles with no problem.
The engine was sounding great according to the mechanics at the place where he was going to be staying. The only problem had been that there had been a non-shutdown problem due to a nut that was binding on the RH rack rod.
Engine had been running at proper temp and idling after a 40 mile run at 25 psi oil pressure.
I do see some discoloration on the ports at the point where the liner came apart, but have never had one come apart like that so I have nothing to judge by. Also the broken ends are darker in some places than they are in others.
The new parts are suppose to be in Monday and we'll be packaging up the broken pieces to send back to them for analysis.
Believe me, I am as interested in what happened as anyone else... I learned a long time ago, I would rather go slow and take my time than have to go back and do the job again.
Dallas
Dallas
In my 45 years in the trade I never seen one that bad. Almost look to me that piston pin came out and caught liner thank god did it trying to crank or else at speed another boat anchor. I'll be watching for up date did the quill break with the sudden stop for the blower.
Larry H
Thanx for all the help and suggestions guys.
I talked to Federal Mogul and they were going to do their inspection of the parts to see what caused it. From the pictures, I can't imagine what they can tell, but then, they can tell what causes an airplane to crash from a bunch of rubble also.
I understand the parts should be there yesterday or more than likely today (as shipping usually goes :-\) So hopefully Dallas will be getting me up and running soon. I'm not sure how long it will take F-M to figure out what caused it, but from what a few different mechanics have told me, the most common denominator seems to be a faulty part.
Dallas is right about it running good. Where I went with it, there were a couple other diesel mechanics there that were familiar with my bus from past years. They said it sounded good to them, too, when I pulled in. I know I was tickled with it. I have only ever driven that diesel engine and was tickled how well it ran up till then. It was pretty tired before the rebuild.
Hopefully Dallas and Cat are doing ok at staying warm! It's rather flat out there and tends to be breezy. Maybe Dallas can get the "Junker" gas heater I gave him fired up to help stay warm. :)
Thanx again!
Chaz
Hi guys just checking to see if engine back together yet and if anything found outyet.
Talked to a couple of old 2 stroke guys with many years over a century between and it is odd to them also so were betting on a cracked liner or a wrist pin .
Hope all goe's well for you Chaz and don't blame Dallas as s*&t happens beyond our control.
Larry H
ps: warm as hell yet in Q town
OK, here's a bit of an update...
I got Chaz's bus up and running yesterday. It has a bad battery that keeps killing both so I had to put chargers on them.
Today I ran the rack, reset the governor and ran the bus for an hour or so watching oil pressure, temp and vibration anomalies.
The only thing that has turned up so far is that there is a bit of vibration that I don't really care for, but can't find any reason to call it a bad injector, other than a bit of white smoke when I first fired it up. It's possible the piston crown just barely kissed the tip of the injector, even though the valves weren't touched.
Later we took it for a 25 mile ride and the smoke cleared up along with the vibration.
Chaz is suppose to be here in the morning to pick his baby up, we'll see what he thinks of it when he gets here.
Thanks guys for all the good thoughts, but if I did do something to screw it up, I'd be the first one to admit it.. I've gone through every step in my head over and over and can't think of anything that would cause it. On that piston and the last piston, Cat watched me put them together and even helped me torque the wrist pin bolts to spec.
All we can do now is hope that Fed-Mog sees it our way and sends a check to cover the extra costs.
Dallas
Well, I got the ol'girl home. She ran good. I tried to keep her below "super sonic". ;D I think I passed 1 woman truck driver during the whole trip.
Now the final test should be starting it tomorrow. Then that will be, basically, a repeat of the trip out there.
Dallas showed me the piston/liner "mess". And it really is!!!! I'm no diesel mechanic, but other than a part failure, I can't imagine what else would do that. I'll change the oil back out tomorrow and she "should" be good to go. (I pray!!)
Thanx for all the good thoughts and advice!!!!!!!!!!
Sincerly,
Chaz
p.s. Taking into consideration 1 gallon of fuel an hour at idle, (my cousin the truck driver gave me that stat) and Dallas saying it idled for about 3-4 hours, I figured up my fuel mileage and it was 7.42 mpg. That makes me happy!! Especially considering 1 injector could possibly still need a little attention.
Thanx again Dallas and Kat!!! Good luck with the possible MCI!!!
Congradulations!!!! Life is good..
Chaz- Sooo glad you decided to stick with it. Now with a fresh engine, the real enjoyment will begin. You're not going to believe just how much of a blast it will be to be out there cruising in the old GMC! Good Luck, TomC
Good to learn it back on the road again.
Praise the Lord!
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Thanx for the nice thoughts and encouragement guys. It means allot.
This bus really does mean allot to me and the feeling I get when I have it out on the road is only second to the feeling of freedom that my Harley gives me.
But..................... I'm looking at the idea of finding her a new good home.
In the past, since I bought her, I've read all the threads about what you should do before you buy a bus and the #1 first criteria is being able to afford it . Well............ I'm afraid I have just been fooling myself. It was all good until this little adventure. Now, if anything major should happen yet again, I would have to take a real burn on it or part it out. Both of which about make me want to hurl.
So, I am going to tinker with her for awhile yet to get all the little things fixed up and then look at my options. ALL of them are on the table. And just think, if I do part with her, there COULD be yet another "bus nut" added to our happy little family. (trying to be optimistic)
Anyway, I do appreciate all of your well wishing............ I really do.
Time to go change out the oil again and listen to her purr.
Chaz
Hey Dallas,
Just as a follow up, I was wondering if the Oregon company that supplied my rebuild parts ever determined if it was a faulty part or not?? Surely they came up with some sort of conclusion by now.
Thanx,
Chaz
We heard on Friday but plan on calling them back in a day or two. They sat on the stuff for two weeks and when I pushed them the guy went down, they put a new bolt in and said it was mechanic error. That was the extent of their testing. They said it wasn't torqued properly and I stood beside Dallas and verified that each bolt torqued right so we know that it was their way of getting out of paying.
They had told me on the phone that they would take pictures and then send the part to the maker of the part for them to determine the problem and then suddenly it was PC's service department that did the tests in about 2 minutes. I fail to see how one new bolt inserted proves that it wasn't part failure.
What a shame when a big company can make a call like that with no recourse. I worked on the brakes on a (1) year old Newmar and was told by Dexter that they NEVER made mistakes in manufacturing. Well long story short the customer left happy and I lost my A$$ in parts and labor.
Hope you can find a way to get them to reconcider.
Quote from: redbus on December 10, 2008, 05:21:23 AM
Hope you can find a way to get them to reconcider.
Sadly with big companies, they often don't take claims seriously until they come from a lawyer and they count on the fact that it would be more expensive for the customer to hire a lawyer than swallow the loss. Companies sometimes develop the idea that if they get out of a couple dozen claims and then have to pay one plus legal fees, they are still ahead. Then as they lose sales over time, they blame the economy or competition.
I would contact Federal/Mogul direct and tell them you are being given the shaft by the retailer 248-354-7700 find the right person and they will listen. You could bet your last dollar if PC installed it and it failed something would be done have a great day
Dang. That bites. >:(
I was also thinking Fed Mog was going to be the one testing the parts. It's no hair off of PC's butt. Something fishy going on here, me thinks. :-\
Thanx for the # MM2S. I will give them a buzz if Dallas doesn't get any satisfaction. Being the customer, m-a-y-b-e will put a voice to the situation.
Thanx for the advice and encouragement guys.
Chaz
In these situations, I find that a phone call usually does little. It also does not leave a trail. But should be done never the less. Next is an email or fax, this also does little but gets a bit more attention because it leaves a trail. Next is a well thought out letter. with cc to file. This seems to almost always get a response. If not a "return recipt requested" this also should show cc to file and some law firm and maybe the BBB or some such orginization, maybe the state attorney general. The law firm can be fictional or if you need to be honest pick a law firm out of the book and send a copy to them!
As the owner of John Dxxre dealership, call PC and get as far up the ladder as possible. All major manufactures have reps that have budgets for "out of warranty consideration" situations. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
But I didn't tell you anything! ;)
Mark
I have always found that talking to the person they want you to talk to does nothing. Whenever there is any problem at all, I start with a supervisor and, if not satisfied, that person's supervisor. If that fails, there is some vice president or higher officer to involve. People at the bottom do not have the authority to resolve much, so I generally acknowledge their constraints and demand to speak to someone that has real authority. Lower level people are expected to keep problems, and themselves, invisible.
I will be making some phone calls tomorrow. I may not get anywhere but I most certainly will make lots of waves.
Chaz, you do know P C Industries motto is "Accept no excuses,only results " good luck
Chaz, reading the post about the faulty parts all manufactures are required to legally carry Product Liability insurance.
This would mean in some cases that they would replace those parts. As far as reimbursement that might be questionable?
Hope so!
Steve 5B...........
Hey,Any updates ,what was the out come with the cracked piston ,what caused it ?
We had to push the company to even get them to even do the test to make their determination of the problem. I contacted them, the person went to the Service Manager and stood beside him while he put a bolt in to do the test. From that one bolt, they determined that it was mechanic error. We don't understand how putting one bolt in gave them that information. We pushed them to return the parts to us so we could find someone independent to test them. They shipped the parts to our SC address and since we are not there now we are not even certain they are the same parts as the ones we sent them. We took pictures of the parts before we shipped them off so we can make a comparison when we do get them shipped to us.
Their claim is that the wrist pin bolts weren't torqued properly. We know this is untrue because as Dallas torqued them I wrote down each one so that we would be positive they were all done. That way we could be certain we did not overlook any of them. It also seems strange that if the wrist pin bolts were loose why would there be chunks of metal stuck in the threads. Chaz saw the parts also and saw the damage for himself.
Federal Mogul will not deal with customers and will only deal with the vendors. PCI offered to contact them with their findings but we honestly do not trust the accuracy of their tests. Dallas has tried to contact someone to do the independent testing for us but has not gotten his ok to send the parts. The person we are hoping to have do this is someone that PCI has already let slip that they would trust.
We really believe in our hearts that the bolts, as well as the other work, was done correctly. If, however, the independent test shows differently we will discuss with Chaz what the next step will be. Cat
That's kinda sucks that they would treat a situation that way,customers are customers and should all be treated fairly and equally ,Hope Chaz is doing well and the companies involved will do the right thing by him.B G thank you for the update ,please keep us posted as to the final out come of this endevour,thanks. Van ;)
Thanx for the nice thoughts,Van. It sure would be nice for PCI to play fair. I haven't called them yet, but contemplating it. My guess is that "the squeeky wheel gets the grease".
But for now, my baby just sits along side the shop. It's probably too cold to try and start her with the summer fuel blend in it. The next warm spell that comes up I'll crank her over. I love that ol'girl but after this last fiasco.......well.......... :-\
Some of my friends really like her as well, but my girlfriend and best friend - after seeing the stress I was putting myself thru - tell me she should find another home. But she did drive good the last 500 miles since the overhaul. Except for the cylinder grenading, it was a treat. Maybe when the good weather hits and I can take her out, and the love affair will start again.
Thanx again for the thoughts and concern. You bus nuts are the best.
Chaz
p.s. I seen that thread on the 280,000.oo MCI. Think mine is worth 100,000.oo ?? ::) I WOULD drop a zero!! LOL