BCM Community

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrZr-QZbfxo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrZr-QZbfxo)

Can somebody please verify the standard speed protocol of a  NHTSA crash test for a seated coach or transit bus. Thank you very much for all the info on this board people. ;)

It stated 49.3 KPH or 35 MPH - HTH

This may not be the same test # as of the video.
http://www.trcpg.com/whatsnewdetail.asp?id=29


Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

Wow, and thanks for the info link Sojourner .

It's easy to see why the driver often doesn't survive.

That crash test goes far in supporting the idea that has been discussed here in the past about building a reinforced steel "crash cage" into the walls and floor around the driver and "copilot" seat areas.

...And sadly, it is only at regular street cruising speed. :(

I'd read somewhere in the NHTSA online database that a seat belt and softy restraint air bag protocol is in some sort of "cache-status" holding for two years (from what date - I honestly do not know) while testing for optimal implimentation. Sorry, did not copy it, but was nested so frigging deep in the database from one sub-page to another, that I cannot retrace my steps so readily. ???

Driver seat belts and airbags are all fine and good at keeping the driver in the seat rather than being thrown forward.  But looking at that video, where is that seat in the "crumple zone"?  So in that demonstration, a seat belt and airbag would only serve to make sure he didn't fly forward and hit the steering wheel and/or windshield before getting crushed, severed or impaled.

I have joked before about it being designed that way to motivate bus drivers to drive carefully.  But sometimes when I look at how lightly built the driver area of most buses are built, I wonder whether it is only a joke. :-\

Quote from: HighTechRedneck on October 01, 2008, 08:10:03 AM
Driver seat belts and airbags are all fine and good at keeping the driver in the seat rather than being thrown forward.  But looking at that video, where is that seat in the "crumple zone"?  So in that demonstration, a seat belt and airbag would only serve to make sure he didn't fly forward and hit the steering wheel and/or windshield before getting crushed, severed or impaled.

I have joked before about it being designed that way to motivate bus drivers to drive carefully.  But sometimes when I look at how lightly built the driver area of most buses are built, I wonder whether it is only a joke. :-\

I feel you on that HighTechRedNeck. Look at how the whole seating foundation seems to have dislodged. What good will any passenger three-point safety belt be if the whole contraption is just thrown forward. More badly if any of the shoulder belt points are fastened to the bus shell wall while the seat is slammed forward.

For those that didn't link through..

TMC did this test late in 2007 on a 2000 MCI 102EL3 Renaissance model.

Of the many investigations being performed, one was looking at seat belts for coaches.

This has serious implications as far as weight, as noted, there will need to be structure in place to hold the chairs and the belt attachment points.

Industry drove these tests, as it is only a matter of time before we see some knee jerk legislation for seat belts. Choosing some arbitrary or whimsical strength for these belts borrowed from the body of automobile crash testing without scientific principles being applied could prove to be quite unneccesary and have numerous negative impacts, not the least being the economic viability of the coach industry.

One interesting stat, a crash that delivers 20 g's to the occupants of an automobile will only deliver somewhere close to 7 g's to the occupants of a motorcoach, due to the vehicle's mass taking care of the rest of the crash forces.

There was supposed to be another coach crashed sometime in 2008. I haven't heard anything as yet.

I think the absolute crushing of the driver's compartment might be required viewing for those coach drivers who like to tailgate?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

I watched the video and it seemed like the bus was going about 2 mph. 

Quote from: HighTechRedneck
Driver seat belts and airbags are all fine and good at keeping the driver in the seat rather than being thrown forward.  But looking at that video, where is that seat in the "crumple zone"?  So in that demonstration, a seat belt and airbag would only serve to make sure he didn't fly forward and hit the steering wheel and/or windshield before getting crushed, severed or impaled.

I have joked before about it being designed that way to motivate bus drivers to drive carefully.  But sometimes when I look at how lightly built the driver area of most buses are built, I wonder whether it is only a joke. :-\

Quote from: shodogg
I feel you on that HighTechRedNeck. Look at how the whole seating foundation seems to have dislodged. What good will any passenger three-point safety belt be if the whole contraption is just thrown forward. More badly if any of the shoulder belt points are fastened to the bus shell wall while the seat is slammed forward.

Quote from: buswarrior
For those that didn't link through..

TMC did this test late in 2007 on a 2000 MCI 102EL3 Renaissance model.

Of the many investigations being performed, one was looking at seat belts for coaches.

This has serious implications as far as weight, as noted, there will need to be structure in place to hold the chairs and the belt attachment points.

Industry drove these tests, as it is only a matter of time before we see some knee jerk legislation for seat belts. Choosing some arbitrary or whimsical strength for these belts borrowed from the body of automobile crash testing without scientific principles being applied could prove to be quite unneccesary and have numerous negative impacts, not the least being the economic viability of the coach industry.

One interesting stat, a crash that delivers 20 g's to the occupants of an automobile will only deliver somewhere close to 7 g's to the occupants of a motorcoach, due to the vehicle's mass taking care of the rest of the crash forces.

There was supposed to be another coach crashed sometime in 2008. I haven't heard anything as yet.

I think the absolute crushing of the driver's compartment might be required viewing for those coach drivers who like to tailgate?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

HTR, Shodogg, BW and everybody else!,
Over the past 3-4 yrs everytime we think about buying a "new" bus (old bus but new to us!) we sit around and talk and try to decide if it is the right thing to do or not! And everytime it comes up that some day, not sure when, but some day we are going to have to have seat belts in them!  Now we have discussed this with folks a MCI, SETRA, and ABC, and they all agree that yes some day it's going to happen! Now ALL of them say that it's going to be a sad day when it happens for 3 reasons!
1) When it happens it'll be overnight! And none of us will be prepared.
2) The used buses already built will not be strong enough for the "added" seat belts. That every little small struggling operator will throw in just to comply with the law. And then when they hurt or kill someone because they weren't properly designed. Look out legal system, here we come again!
3) Only after much expense and modification will new (or used!) buses be equipped with SAFE seat belts! And nobody will be able to afford to comply! So then it'll be a mass confusion of the guberment handing out grants to all the big companies to "help" them survive (can you say "bail out?) so we don't end up with NO BUS COMPANIES!

Now that said the only one being built and marketed at this time with APPROVED seat belts is BCI's Falcon 45! And everytime we add a bus to the fleet is considered to just get rid of ALL the old buses and just buy 2 BCI Falcon 45's! Now before now that was a joke as there is no way we could AFFORD, to buy 2 BRAND NEW buses! But now that  they have been on the market for a few yrs, we are seriously considering to USED Falcon 45's! And getting rid of the MCI's and converting the SETRA"s to personal conversions!
Did I just type that? huh? what? Yup it was actually mentioned at the glass table several days ago (and not by me either!)! huh? Did I hear that right?

Well for what it's worth, it's what I know for now!  :-\  BK :o

Seeing that crash is scary to say the least. Any driver will not survive the impact even with seat belts and air bags. :'( It gave me the willies to see that.  :(

When driving our Eagle I keep a very long distance between me and the guy in front, but then some nut will pass and cut in front and slam on the brakes. Not good.

The safest place for any vehicle is in the driveway! ;) Of which ours spends a lot of time there.  :'(

Paul

It should serve as a sobering reminder to drive safely.

• Always drive the bus, not just hold the wheel.
• Always look ahead, know what is happening several vehicles forward.
• Keep mirrors properly adjusted and use them to know what is coming up beside you.
• Always get enough sleep before driving.  If you get sleepy while driving, stop and walk around, do some excercises, get some coffee, whatever works for you to regain alertness.
• Keep both hands on the wheel.  Things happen fast and depending on the speed, if one of your hands isn't on the wheel, it will take 100-150 feet to get it there.
• "Know" your bus.  Know how it feels when it's running right, notice when something changes.
• Maintain your brakes, steering and tires as though your life depends on them, it does.
• Never ever indulge in "adult beverages" and drive it.

All that said, there is a silver lining to this cloud.  Consider how many buses there are with over 1 million miles on them.  Consider all the ones with 3 million or more miles on them.  Consider all the highway trucks out there with over 1 million miles on them.  The odds of being in a fatal collision are probably much worse whenever your drive your car.  Just don't let those odds lull you into complacency about driving safely when driving your bus.
   

Speaking of crashes I have to say our that I am truly confident in one of our part time drivers! I know for a fact he doesn't tailgate. I have known Dave 7 or 8 yrs and he has driven for a freind of mine every since I met him. Well about 5 yrs ago he was hauling a group of people to Pigeon Forge, TN and got into a traffic jam. Well next thing ya know there was a BRAKE CHECK! Dave WAS following a tractor trailer TOO close and rear ended it! Luckily he was the only one on the coach that received anything more than a scratch! Dave had a crushed foot and a broken foot! Other than that luckily his injuries were minor scrapes and cuts! And he was trapped until they cut him out and freed his feet! I can GUARANTEE Dave does not follow too close now! Also at the accident he was NOT cited for following too close, and it was not said it was his fault. But rather an unavoidable situation. Well Dave and I talked long before he applied to drive for us, and he did admit to me "that in my mind, I know I was folloing too close!" even though the TN HWY Patrol and the insurance company did not charge him at fault! I can assure you it has made him a much more aware driver!

;D  BK  ;D

I'm not sure when talking about seatbelts here whether people are refering to seatbelts for bus driver or bus passengers (or maybe both). If it helps the law changed here in 2001 to require buses and coaches to have passenger seatbelts. I'm not sure if the driver is required to use one or not, but as has been said it probably doesn't help very much anyway in anything other than in slow-speed accidents. With 15+ tons of weight behind and nothing but a sheet of glass in front, a coach driver is always going to be pretty vunerable.

When the seatbelt law came in here in 2001 I expect there were plenty of small operators who campaigned against it on cost grounds - but as is always the way with these things they had to accept it and no doubt were surprised to find it wasn't the end of the world after all.

Jeremy

Mike,
I agree with most of your list except...
When driving your bus, look a half mile or a mile ahead.. not just a couple of vehicles. As you stated, these creatures do not stop on a dime, and have 0nly 3 axles and 8 tires at best.. a semi normally has 5 axles and 18 tires on a class 8 vehicle and will stop in less space than an unloaded coach.

Many many years ago, I had to take classes as part of an orientation program at one of the companies I leased my trucks to. One of the methods to stay alert was to always keep your eyes moving.. the NTSB recommended moving your eyes in a circular motion that would scan your windshield and traffic directly in front of you, left mirror, gauges, FLOOR, right mirror, ahead of your rig by at least 1/2 mile, and start over. If you use the 2 second rule, increase it to the 4 second rule.
Ever wonder why trucks, even those without CB radio, (I quit using mine at least 3 years before I stopped driving), seem to get into the correct lane when a lane closure is coming up? It's because they are professionals, and watch their surroundings and what they are coming up on.

As for defeating fatigue..
None of those methods you mentioned actually work for more than about 5 minutes if you are really tired and not just bored.
The ONLY METHOD (THAT WORKS) TO REDUCE FATIGUE IS SLEEP.
Don't kid yourself. If you are tired and sleepy you are better off stopping and taking a 30 minute nap than trying to force yourself to go and go.
Believe me.. I at one time ran 3 log books......... Rest came after I fueled and food was eaten in the truck while rolling along at 70+ mph. Showers were only taken in places like Oregon that had fuel jockeys that fueled the truck and pulled it forward while you were getting the scum off.
(For those of you who don't know, Commercial drivers were limited to 10 hours on duty, driving; or 15 hours 0n duty with a minimum of a 4 hour break after each period of 8 hours driving..... plus it gets even more complicated).
Like some of our ex truck drivers and owner operators here, the only way to make a profit was to put miles on the truck, having a second driver for me was never an option.. I have only trusted two people behind the wheel while I was sleeping..My step dad and my wife. I ended up 3 times against the windshield post and twice shot through the windshield because of a second driver..nope Team driving isn't for me.

The bottom line here is.. NEVER TAKE CHANCES.. If you feel tired, go take a nap. No place you need to go cannot do without you. If you get into a wreck, you'll be late at the very least, if you are dead you won't get there at all.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Dallas

Quote from: HighTechRedneck on October 02, 2008, 07:35:18 AM
It should serve as a sobering reminder to drive safely.

• Always drive the bus, not just hold the wheel.
• Always look ahead, know what is happening several vehicles forward.
• Keep mirrors properly adjusted and use them to know what is coming up beside you.
• Always get enough sleep before driving.  If you get sleepy while driving, stop and walk around, do some excercises, get some coffee, whatever works for you to regain alertness.
• Keep both hands on the wheel.  Things happen fast and depending on the speed, if one of your hands isn't on the wheel, it will take 100-150 feet to get it there.
• "Know" your bus.  Know how it feels when it's running right, notice when something changes.
• Maintain your brakes, steering and tires as though your life depends on them, it does.
• Never ever indulge in "adult beverages" and drive it.

All that said, there is a silver lining to this cloud.  Consider how many buses there are with over 1 million miles on them.  Consider all the ones with 3 million or more miles on them.  Consider all the highway trucks out there with over 1 million miles on them.  The odds of being in a fatal collision are probably much worse whenever your drive your car.  Just don't let those odds lull you into complacency about driving safely when driving your bus.
   

Good points Dallas.

On the issue of rest when tired.  I fully agree, but with a condition.  You can stop immediately at the side of the road to get up from the seat, walk around stretch, get a cup of coffee.  This can provide an immediate benefit, even if not lasting.  To get a few hours of sleep, you need to find a place to safely/legally pull off.  In some of the more challenging long open stretches, that can take quite a few miles to find one.

So my revised point would be, when you start to get sleepy behind the wheel, immediately take actions to regain alertness, then if it was more than boredom, find the next safe place to pull off and take a nap.

Driving while in danger of falling asleep is certainly not merely a problem for buses and trucks.  I hate to admit how many times I have driven a car in that condition.  I actually once was driving a VW bug on a Los Angeles freeway once and completely fell asleep.  I was woken up when I hit the divider guard rail.  I knew something had awakened me, but I was not even sure I had hit anything until I stopped and saw the whole left side of the car was torn up.  It seems I just fell asleep, the car swerved two lanes left, hit the guard rail and bounced off waking me up.  You'd think I'd learn a lesson from that. 

The biggest problem I have driving the bus is remembering to treat it completely different than a car, and forgetting things that are natural to the old professionals.   I need to always remind myself to plan far in advance for stops and turns.  Another thing is discarding some of the etiquette I am accustomed to when driving a car.  For example, if I am making a left turn in a car, I will make an effort to have as little impact on traffic behind me as possible.  In the bus, I need to just plan to get into the left lane reasonably in advance and begin slowing down early.  Those behind me will just have to understand (or not). 

I pulled this of the Yahoo http:////greyhoundthroughexpress/message/34146:

Re: 3 point seat belts offered in 2009 MCI

Seatbelts arent reassuring after seeing the E/J's in a roll over they
don't seem to hold to well, havn't seen any recent shots of the D in a
roll over. The MC-9/MC-12 still fare up nicely.