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$1.30 a gallon. 3 three hours of work. Sounds awfully good to me...

I am sure you guys have got alot of opinions about this so I'm all ears.

I hope they are big ears! LOL! I don't have any knowledge either good or bad but I can assure you many here will have something to say! LOL! ;D  BK  ;D

I also have absolutely no knowlege about it, but at $1.30 a gallon, you certainly have my attention!  Wonder how it would work in an older Big Cam Cummins?  Hummm.  :) :) :)

I know a busnut who ran WVO in his turbo diesel. He got just over 20,000 miles before the turbo locked up.

He ain't saying the WVO caused it, but he is saying that he ain't gonna run WVO in his other two turbo diesel cars.

I'm not gonna out him here, as it's up to him to make his personal details public.  :o


One thing that gets my attention concerning WVO is that there aren't many that do it long term.
Seems to me if it was "the real deal", more would be doing it . . . . .

I also haven't heard of a successful documented high mileage engine . . . . .

As for me, the mess, storage, finding stock, time, etc all add up to make pump diesel cheaper.

Besides, I can afford to fill up easier than I can afford to replace my motor.

With all due respect the guy who showed me the kit, which arrives completely assembled on a single pallet and sells at around 7k, owns a hi performance boat shop and he had his crew just take the heads and the pan off one of his trucks and they were still disassembled when I met him last week and they showed me pictures of the heads and valves 50k miles ago before the conversion and I was there, this was not something I didn't see with my own eyes and ALL THE SOOT THAT WAS ON THE VALVES IN THE BEFORE PICTURES WAS GONE. He said it runs much quieter as well. The loss is about a 3% loss in cetane and if that was an issue he said the after market boosters will bring it up to normal cetane levels for $5 per 80 gallon batch. If I do this I may want to pursue that route because of my 8V71 and it's lack of power issues.
If you want to know how popular it is just try going to your local restaurant and see if they'll let you dispose of their oil. McDonalds , Burger King all of the major chains are either selling their oil to converters or starting their own conversion sites to run their delivery trucks. Can you imagine McDiesel fuel?
The biggest issues in my opinion are pure safety issues Methanol not only burns clear and odorless it also burns your skins nerve cells so fast you actually don't feel you're on fire when you are. The better kits are safer because you simply tap the 55 gallon drum of methanol, it uses about 12 gallons of methanol per 80 gallon batch and never touch the barrel again till it's empty. It seems that alot of the rumors surrounding the use of WVO are usually engine related or tax related. To me the engine questionss always ring of Oil Company urban legends designed to make us afraid to leave their udder and get milk elsewhere. The fact is Diesel intended these motors to run on Peanut oil when he invented them. The shop had an obvious smell and I could feel it in my eyes so ventilation and location are primary concerns. In fact I think it is illegal to have methanol within the city limits of most cities. The tax issue will at some point be unavoidable but it seems to me that they can only tax you on what you have in your posession. 150 gallons of fuel that passes EPA standards and WVO does pass those tests with flying colors would only pay about half of #2 diesel.It varies from state to state but I can't imagine the fine would be more than $20.

Meanwhile any evidence for tax evasion is in the atmosphere..

It's not like running the dyed off road stuff because there is legislation in place against that.
I'm sure many folks out there have done their resaerch on this subject but could we keep any unsubstantiated claims of engine damage to a minimum. Rumors we have  heard or what a friend told another friend you have never met needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I was a non believer because of fear of what it may do to my engine based on rumors. I'd like some real empirical evidence that the fuel Diesel intended his invention to run on is more damaging than the current fuel that wasn't even available in his time. Heck I sure don't wanna hurt my motor but truth is I KNOW what future consistent $5 diesel is gonna do to my and many others engines. It's going to permanently shut them off.

Are we talking about WVO or Bio Diesel?
Jerry

This is my reason for not going into WVO.

So far everyone here that converts to WVO has not responded to say "it the way to go" reports.

Here one about picking up cold grease and hard to find in today market or free:
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/alternative-fuels-additives-oils-lubricants/43919-wvo-sources-help.html

Hard to find WVO and rundown of what to expect of how to avoid starting problem when engine is cooled (75°F). Read the MotorOilMccall's posts:
http://www.dieselbombers.com/alternative-fuels-additives-fluids/15447-waste-vegetable-oil.html

The bottom-line about WVO is;
1)   No guarantee that you will find WVO without a written contract with the source.
2)   You have to maintain pick-up schedule or they have someone else to take over.
3)   Remember you maybe not the only WVO user nearby, so don't advertise. 
4)   All WVO source are to be warmed before you can suck it into your barrel.
5)   High set-up cost and/or labor to convert vehicle to WVO.
6)   Your labor of time to get WVO processed to be diesel ready.
7)   Expect trouble downtime on the road until you are well experience WVO user.
8]   Before shut down, always switch to diesel fuel the last 5 miles to clean out WVO in fuel system for starting after over night stop cool down.
9)   Have fun whatever you choose. It good experience to have for your background history.

BTW...$7000 kit + $5 per 80 gal of WVO at $1.30 per gal. Which mean if diesel is $4.25 per gal, you have use 2423 gallons of WVO to break even without the cost of processing it.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

RickB, your first post referenced WVO & asked for opinions, but when you got one that was negative, you went off on unsubstantiated claims . . . .  I've ridden in (while it was still running) & have seen & touched the locked turbo. So if that isn't substantial enough for you . . . .  ;)
I remember the abuse one got for posting his failure, seems many proponents accused him of doing it wrong. . . .
BTW, it is very embarrassing to admit you toasted your equipment trying this experiment, so don't expect many confessions.  ::)


Anyway, now that you've added more info including methanol & the $7000 'kit', it sounds like bio-diesel to me. & for those that don't know, there is a lot of difference between the two. Bio runs lots cleaner, so it's no surprise that the engine is cleaner after running it.

I HAVE talked to local restaurants about getting their waste oil. In many cases it is a logistics issue. They must have reliable disposal of their waste oil & the haulers are providing a tank for them to use.

In many areas, if you have more than 5 gallons of waste oil, you must have a permit to haul it. You can guess what the fine is, but I suggest you find out for a fact. I have NEVER seen a fine that low.

Bio diesel has a limited storage life too, so that is another issue to be dealt with.
Have you looked into the costs to properly dispose of a significant quantity of it if a batch goes bad?


If one was to look past the sales hype, the conspiracy theories, the 'free lunch', etc and actually LEARN what is happening in the refining process to make bio diesel, you would realize it carries a significant risk with it. Some are fine with that & that is not the problem. The problem arises when those risks are minimized to the point some think they are insignificant & don't treat the process with the respect it deserves.
Would you want a neighbor running a chemical processing plant (with all the associated hazardous stuff) without any regulatory oversight? What if the product was explosive?




I've said it before, & it bears repeating, If bio diesel was anywhere close to the hype (concerning cost & "great benefits to the world"), the big business would have already pushed it to the market. As it is, the only thing being pushed to market is a 'kit' so you can get rich quick.

I see a lot of similarities between bio diesel & the ethanol debacle.


If you have the time & resources, go for it. But that $1.30 per gallon is pure B.S. unless they will sell you as much as you need for that. Once 'they' count their indirect cost, it will go up.  :(

Thanks for the clarification in my subject heading. Yes indeed I am talking about biodiesel. Sorry about the gaffe.
The reason I suggested the "stick to what we know discussion and not the rumor mill" is we are, as a group,incredibly touchy and protective of our expensive diesel engines. There is good cause for that but it could work against us if we don't have solid facts within our "protection" process. I honestly meant no offense to anyone through that suggestion.

Also, I do believe there is fairly general consensus that Oil Companies are not big on sharing the market with anything that threatens their position. The probability that they will work diligently against alternative energy in any form is a pretty fair assumption as well. Manipulating data on possible competitors is an excepted business practice after all.

What is the reasoning behind the alternative fuels cause of the turbo seizure? I am assuming the exhaust gas temps were believed to be too high. Is that correct?
Most of the research I have read suggests that Biodiesel burns much cooler than petroleum diesel.

I seized a turbo on my previous 6v92 and after reading about similar failures I assumed it probably failed because of a quick temp spike inherent in the wet sleeve system or an inadequate oil issue or it just plumb wore out.

Most converters would say that $1.30 is a high per gallon price. Some have claimed it is closer to 80 cents a gallon. I was just trying to be conservative. What is everyone hearing as far as price per gallon?

One of the arguments that talked me out of this years ago was: It takes hours and hours of time. Well, after witnessing part of the process, yes many of the individual processes involved take hours and hours of time (for example "drying" can take a week)but the actual time you spend working, mixing,collecting,pumping and testing is around 3 hours a batch.The rest of those hours you are free to roam about the cabin.Although I did not witness a full process I did watch my friend start a couple processes in the course of a football game we were watching nearby. Anyone have any similar or differing comments on that?

I do think the reason given that most people haven't written in their experiences good and bad is unfortunately correct.

Maybe, because we aren't face to face, blog's can become at times... shall we say a little short on tact and a little long on embarassing other folks, and condescending tone.
It's good to remember that all of us here are just trying to get real objective input with which we can make sound decisions and obviously meanwhile we get to talk about our passion... Buses.

I am sure I don't know nearly as much about buses as most of you do and I am grateful for your combined knowledge.

"I think human interaction is easier when brilliant minds sound like they don't have a clue that they are brilliant."  Bob Dylan

Words to blog by...

Quote from: RickB on September 27, 2008, 11:57:04 PM
. . . . . . I honestly meant no offense to anyone through that suggestion.
None taken, just clarifying   ;D

Also, I do believe there is fairly general consensus that Oil Companies are not big on sharing the market with anything that threatens their position. The probability that they will work diligently against alternative energy in any form is a pretty fair assumption as well. Manipulating data on possible competitors is an excepted business practice after all.
I think big business is big because they sieze ALL opportunity to make a buck. Conspiracy theories are seldom proven. I believe fuels are way more complex than most realize. The byproducts of combustion have a HUGE impact.

What is the reasoning behind the alternative fuels cause of the turbo seizure? I am assuming the exhaust gas temps were believed to be too high. Is that correct?
No, again, he was running WVO & it left deopsits behind.

I know three people co-operatively doing bio-deisel. The mess, the expense, the time involved, cannot possibly be worth it. But they are having a heck of a lot of fun and beating the system, so they are happy.
If I had a bit more ambition, I would be selling Bio-Deisel factorys, That is where the real money is in home brew deisel!!!
                                                        Jim

I have heard it said that the people who made the most money during the gold rush were selling picks and shovels.

now having a bit of experience with both WVO, Home brewed Bio and Commercial Bio....

it really is not worth the expense, hastle, headache....unless you are living on the far left and are an Idealist.

Yes there are people who have had great sucess with all of the above.  Most of which are funded by commercial entities.
there are some private vehicles which have had OK sucess too.

Now having talked to alot of folks whoa re doing this....most of which are self proclaimed lefty Idealist.......they admit they will not post any negative results or experiences as it is contray to thier message.

I many many hours of online research I found maybe 1/2 of 1% of articles/studies which mentioned anything negative.

Very very little about cold weather operations and the related issues there.
Little about being on the road and not being able to find fuel
little about getting stuck on the side of the road with any number of breakdown issues.

Also note that most of these people are using older vehicles, seems not even the rich leftists are willing to risk thier 80,000 MB Diesels

Also, if it were so efficient and cheap...why would other countries that are not so Dino Fuel Dependant just making thier own Bio.

Seems China who has billions of citizens and what we can call a captive workforce could easily supply all of thier own fuel........in house......if it were legitimate....nope, they BUY just like we do.

[quote author=Len Silva link=topic=9689.msg97246#msg97246 date=1222611216]
I have heard it said that the people who made the most money during the gold rush were selling picks and shovels.
[/quote]

I think  a fellow named Levi Strauss? Did pretty good also. I wonder in the Bio guys need pants??   Jim

Levi and Strauss were two people.  I forget the whole story, but one came up with the pants, and the other brought him the idea of riveting critical seams.  Originally they had rivets in the crotch, but they cut that out when customers complained of heat transfer when sitting close to the fire.  It may be myth, but that's what I heard.

On subject, I would love to use cheap biodiesel, but no matter how good it is, I do not use enough to justify making it myself.  If a neighbor was doing it, I would consider buying some though.

Quote from: Lin on September 28, 2008, 11:17:01 AM
Levi and Strauss were two people.  I forget the whole story, but one came up with the pants, and the other brought him the idea of riveting critical seams.  Originally they had rivets in the crotch, but they cut that out when customers complained of heat transfer when sitting close to the fire.  It may be myth, but that's what I heard.

On subject, I would love to use cheap biodiesel, but no matter how good it is, I do not use enough to justify making it myself.  If a neighbor was doing it, I would consider buying some though.

I always learned that Levi was a one man show that cam the California with a dream to get rich in the gold fields.

He was a Taylor? Clothier? or something similar by trade.

He ended up with a whole batch of Canvas and didn't know what to do with it so decide to make trousers that would be long wearing and tough.

On all of this I could be wrong.. My jeans of choice are Wranglers.. they fit my rotundness much better

My bus is converted to run off of WVO.  Personally, to me it is a good investment.  However, im in a different position than most of you.

Being in a touring band that is just starting to really tour, we get paid about $300 a show on average.  Typically, we would be spending at least 70% of that to get to the show.  Having bills and stuff to pay, WVO is our only way of touring and being able to come home with money for those bills.  Not to mention the way the music industry works nowadays, everyone makes money except the band....so again, literally the only way we can afford to keep touring is WVO.

Yes its tough to find sometimes.  Yes we have to buy diesel sometimes.  Its a pretty dirty and gross process. Its a time consuming process, but to us its worth it.

So it depends on how much you drive honestly.  We drive roughly 500 miles a day, so WVO is our only way of maintaining a touring lifestyle.  We've also learned as we have gone along.  For example, next tour we wont book any shows further than 200 miles apart.  This way we can find 35 gallons a day which is very feasible instead of having to fill up our tanks.

A WVO system also requires as much maintenance as the entire bus.  Though having 5 guys makes it easy....just assign jobs :-)  Yea, its a 7 grand system, though with our driving as much as we do....it gets paid off fast.

If you have the funds and it fits you....stick with diesel haha.  For us, obviously it makes sense.  However, for most...it really doesnt.

To each his own :-)

Would this great, hot topic of WVO based diesel fuel be worthy of a presentation at some future Bus Conversion get-together?  Dunno.  Might be neat.

Kinda gets you interested in new things--like learning how to run the rack and setting the injectors, valves, timing and governor on your old Detroit.  :) :) :)

How about heating, centrifuging, filtering the WVO, and then adding it proportionally to the diesel oil as you run down the road. Bet that would work good--no dangerous chemicals, just a yucky (& expensive) centrifuge.

With my personality the arguments against mess and hassle are sobering. My family tours to support my music like the earlier post and we probably put enough miles on a year to make it worthwhile but as I said earlier I only witnessed a couple of the processes and there at least 8 major processes and 3-4 minor processes to consider when making a good decision about this.

I never came at this from the far left (environmental impact/carbon footprint reasoning) or the far right, ( a friend of a friend of a friend says: Dino oil good...everything else bad, dangerous, undoable)

I have encountered the first information that really gives me pause. The possibility that the friend of mine may have understated the difficulties involved.

I plan to continue to search for the bottom line in this.I appreciate all your input.
Rick

tekebird brought up some very good points concerning the negatives seldom mentioned. If you were to start there & get that information first, it will enable you to sort thru the hype lots faster.  ;)

Please do continue your quest, & let us know your findings. Unbiased reports are seldom posted.  ::)

Negatives are crucial....and my lack of finding things on negatives while doing my research really made it hard to make the decision.

Here is what i have personally encountered.

From sept 5th until next week i will have driven on WVO from new jersey to cali, and back, in a zigzag pattern, not a straight line so add more miles on that quest than what it actually is.  To get to cali everything went pretty smooth, and we only spent $500 in diesel.  Now that is not to say there were times when we had to drive for hours and be late to shows because we had a hard time finding WVO.  As you get more and more experienced with where to find WVO and stuff, this does get easier.  Our other problem was this....we would originally ask restaurants if we could have it....they all say no usually as now companies pay restaurants $20 per full bin of WVO and apparently thats a large enough sum of money for people to get angry if you ask for their WVO....but lets not go there.  So usually we just look for it and pump it at night when places are closed.  A cop stopped us once and once he realized we were pumping trash into our bus basically, he just said 'i dont know what the deal is with this stuff, so im just going to drive that way' and left.

Now filtering WVO requires filters and we did not order enough, as sometimes a filter will do 500 gallons, and another one will handle only 50.  So we ended up having to dish out at this point almost a grand worth of diesel until we get to missouri which is where the conversion was done as these filters are only available there.

Bottom line is, before i give you guys an essay that frankly none of you have much use for haha, if your looking to do this in order to not pay a dime for diesel....your wrong.  things will happen, you will run out of filters, the WVO pump may go, and if your on the go like a tour and have no choice than to keep going, your going to suck it up and have to buy diesel....bottom line.

If your bank account isnt the biggest thing in the world, and you have a shower in your bus (or dont mind going a few days covered in sticky WVO and smelling like crap), i say do it.  Depends on your comfort level.  Most of the horror stories about WVO you hear are due to people being too lazy to take the time to do stuff the right way.  If you pump WVO that has sugar and water and bits of food into your engine....dont be surprised if you break down.  If you take a few hours a day to find oil that has settled, and is free of crap, you wont have any problems.

WVO has proven itself to me personally, but it is also honestly just a way to be able to afford the expenses of beggining to tour, until we, God willing, get to the point where we can buy diesel, drive to a show, and still have money in our hand at the end of the day.  But until then, WVO it is.

PS.....it burns very dirty.  Our trailer was white....it is now literally black.  As well as the back of the bus.  The trailer wires and tongue of the trailer is literally covered in grease.

Now its just to the point now where we want to see how dirty it gets until we get home :p

On this note, i am done with my book.  Feel free to message me if you want further info!!

Quote from: iminaccess on September 28, 2008, 10:17:12 PM
. . . . .  So usually we just look for it and pump it at night when places are closed.  . . . . . .

So, you STEAL it. 

NOT COOL!

In case no one has mentioned it to you, stealing is wrong. You can't justify that. You can try, but it is still wrong.
Just because some lazy cop didn't want to get involved is not permission.

Would it me any different if someone felt they "really needed" a tire & took one from your bus while you weren't there? I mean, they couldn't really afford one & no one stopped them . . . . . . . .
What about a wiper blade?
What about a light bulb?

Your lack of concern for the property of others & the business owner's & waste hauler's lively hood is deploreable. Just because you don't understand the total picture is no excuse either. If there is a mess left by you, who is going to clean it up? If DHEC imposes a fine for the mess, who will pay?



I do hope that this is not what being a busnut has come to . . . .

I find it somewhat incongruous that someone with a biblical quote in their signature can justify stealing.  In case you don't know it, more and more restaurants are being paid for their grease rather than paying the haulers.  The grease collectors currently value it at about $1.20 per gallon.

yeah stealing it even if it is trash is illegal.

I suspect you have had good results thus far because it has not been cold yet.

WVO is way more susceptable to cold issues that Bio, which I can attest that a well designed professional system can have issues with cold starts.

Perhaps Karma will pay you back with some nice thick fuel situations for each of the petty larcanies you have commited over the past few weeks

I started this post and asked for REAL honest answers I can use and folks like you are giving me authentic been there done that advice and I thank you.The advice you gave must have been given with the knowledge that a few here would see this as an opportunity to do what seems to come so easy to us as people. Pointing out the speck in someone else's eye while ignoring the plank in their own is a gut level reaction. I am sorry that I didn't ask for advice somewhere else. where people can feel safe to honestly discuss without fear of reproach.
Kyle, I would love to lecture and respond to your jabs defending business for any of their behaviors.Behaviors which have had unspeakably greater consequences than some well intentioned people using waste oil that people are throwing out. They are stealing garbage after all. Not 401k's and savings accounts.
But I am sure many would agree this board would be better served without another pointless argument.You are free to call the cops on them if it will make you feel better.

Not every person who loves buses lives their lives exactly like me. Wow what a concept.
Thanks for the advice guys, you are helping me to make a good decision and If you will email me your address I would like to take from what little we have to give to you so you can keep on keepin' on.
God Bless your travels

$1.20 a gallon for waste oil. So how is my friend who actually does this putting it in his tank after processing for 40 cents less?Where are you reading /hearing this kind of stuff? I would love to see the source of that kind of misinformation.

iminaccess:

I suspect if you are coating the trailer and back of your bus with black you are not getting complete combustion of your WVO.

Two reasons. 

1. It is not warm enough prior to combustion

2. Your engine is too tired to facilitate full combustion.

WVO in a well designed system, should not do that.

IIRC you purchased your bus already converted?

There are some crooked folks around as of the past couple years that build WVO vehicles for resale that are not well engineered.  I would seriously take a look at the design and performance of your system

Peach, my son in Scottsdale own 2 restaurants if you are ever in AZ he won't care if you take the WVO he may throw in some meals it cost him $250.00 per month to have it haul off he would jump with joy if somebody paid a $1.20 a gal WVO since he pays $1.60 a gal for the new. Install some catch cans on your air tubes that will stop some of the mess on your trailer.   good luck and safe travels

Rick,

You may want to check and see if you have the check valves installed in your air box spitter tubes.

These only allow the spitter tubes to get rid of the crud at idle.. if they are open all the time, the blower will force gunk out at all rpm levels which would cause your "Rust Preventive" coating.

If the check valves are there, take them off and clean them, they could be gunked up and not working.

If you don't have them on there, email me.. I may have a couple of used ones.

Dallas

Quote from: RickB on September 29, 2008, 06:30:17 AM
$1.20 a gallon for waste oil. So how is my friend who actually does this putting it in his tank after processing for 40 cents less?Where are you reading /hearing this kind of stuff? I would love to see the source of that kind of misinformation.

Here are a couple, many more articles out there.

http://www.dailytidings.com/2007/1119/stories/1119_valley_grease_wars.php
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/1491173781.html?dids=1491173781:1491173781&FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jun+7%2C+2008&author=CRAIG+PITTMAN&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&edition=&startpage=A.1&desc=SLICK+THIEVES+HAUL+OFF+GREASE

I never said they were paying the restaurants that much; that's what it's worth to the haulers after collection.

Luvrbus, That is EXACTLY why one should ask first. Some can & will gladly help.

I ain't saying it won't work. I am saying there is more to it than some would have you believe. I'm all for iminaccess (& any one else for that matter) having sucess with his. I'm just not a fan of unauthorized acquisitions. If he were to be in this area & ask, I'd make as many phone calls as I could to help him locate wvo.

Quote from: RickB on September 29, 2008, 06:24:48 AM
I started this post and asked for REAL honest answers I can use and folks like you are giving me authentic been there done that advice and I thank you.The advice you gave must have been given with the knowledge that a few here would see this as an opportunity to do what seems to come so easy to us as people. Pointing out the speck in someone else's eye while ignoring the plank in their own is a gut level reaction.

Stealing is stealing. I am blessed it is a gut level reaction. (It's a shame it isn't in more people!) A good friend has a small restaurant & has wvo in back. It may be a regional thing, maybe it's just his supplier, but he is actually renting the cooking oil & is charged for what isn't in the wvo bin.
Still think the midnight acquisitions aren't stealing?

I am sorry that I didn't ask for advice somewhere else. where people can feel safe to honestly discuss without fear of reproach.

You are getting good advice here. It seems you don't want any that isn't what you wanted to hear.  :o 
Most here encourage good behaviour, & will discourage irresponsible behaviour.

It is very telling of someones true character by what they defend or support. 
I will not defend stealing, even if it is from a crook.
I will support informed decision making & that requires knowing the good, bad & ugly - even if most want to hide it behind smoke, mirrors & empty promises.


Kyle, I would love to lecture and respond to your jabs defending business for any of their behaviors.Behaviors which have had unspeakably greater consequences than some well intentioned people using waste oil that people are throwing out.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is interested in this lecture. So it's OK to steal from people/ businesses that aren't perfect? Since some businesses are bad, they all are?
The consequences of improper applications are REAL, even if the intentions were good.
(The oily residue in the trailer has many potential sources, including low compression as a result of damaged compression rings.)

They are stealing garbage after all. Not 401k's and savings accounts.

Again, it may not be garbage, someone else may be paying for it. Hence the need to get permission first. In my friends case, it is taking it out of his savings. . . .

But I am sure many would agree this board would be better served without another pointless argument.You are free to call the cops on them if it will make you feel better.

What entertainment value is a thread without spirited discussion?
Arguments aren't pointless if someone learns something. But one must have an open mind before knowledge can enter . . . .

Not every person who loves buses lives their lives exactly like me. Wow what a concept.

Yet you condemn all businesses for the 'unspeakable behaviour of a few.   ???

Thanks for the advice guys, you are helping me to make a good decision and If you will email me your address I would like to take from what little we have to give to you so you can keep on keepin' on.
God Bless your travels

Good luck in your quest for knowledge. Have you googled BIODIESEL for the discussion groups? I'm sure you'll find all sorts of information there too.

WVO used to be free to the contractor who picked it up because of the cost of transposrting and handling it, although they've always sold it for a mutitude of uses (fuel,feed supplements,etc.) to reproccessors at a profit - now because of the rising commodity costs the smart WVO generator can demand, and will get, cash to offset the cost of the VO - see below*

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/us/30grease.html?_r=1&ei=5087&em=&en=ffb44d2801511502&ex=1212292800&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1222700895-t8PQd3+hll9Du3YilJjyLw&oref=slogin

Peach,
First off I'm not wanting to get into the stealing/not stealing argument! Second I have very little knowledge of WVO systems. But I can say that in my past I myself have done questionable things. Many of which would not be approved of by many others. But that is in the past and I was caught for some things I did, and while I was guilty of what I was caught for (and some I wasn't). When it was time for me to be judged they charged me with things I had not been guilty of as well as the ones I clearly was. Now one wrong don't make it right to blame one for all wrongs. But the truth is our society is programmed to lay blame wherever possible. So what I'm trying to say is right or wrong taking the oil w/o permission could lead to you being accused of worse things. Now that being said I paid for the things I did and some I didn't. Which at the time (young age) I had a very large grudge about. But as time has passed and I have grown and matured I look back at it as I paid for the things I DID & got caught for, and things I did and DIDN'T get caught for by paying for the things I was falsely accused of. I never did anything violent, and never hurt anyone but my self and those who love me. Either way I have paid my dues to society and the state of IN many yrs ago for the things I did. I got my act together and live my life one day at a time, and consistently ask myself daily if any of my actions will have a negative impact on the way it effects those I love because the last thing I wish to do is hurt them any more in any way. I live a simple, and basic existence in life these days. Sometimes $ is hard to come by and other times it ain't but I sleep well at night I earned every penny I make. I may never get rich, but I know in my heart that I am treating others fair and the way I wish to be treated.

Now that the confession has been made. I would not normally say taking "trash" is stealing. But on the other hand if it is indeed trash then there should be no problem acquiring permission.

Now what if something worse happens to a place the same night you guys are seen taking veggie oil? Say right after you leave (or just before you got there) someone broke in and stole a bunch of $, or food from the freezer, or a keg of beer, or etc. Chances are you'll take the wrap for it as well, even if you have nothing to do with it "just because you were there and "you were taking WVO".  So consider this in the future. I'm not saying what yer doing is right or wrong, just look at it from the other side and see how "the judge" will look at it!

Now back to the topic at hand. I have no knowledge of the pros and cons of WVO. Except that I know that the space, & time it requires make it very impractical for my use in the charter biz. But I welcome the debate and educated experiences on it as I am going to build my own conversion someday and by then maybe, just maybe you guys will have perfected a way to make it a simple reliable way of doing it!

Now one other thought is that when you guys book yer gigs you put in the contract that the hiring party either let you get X amount of WVO from their bins or they make arrangements with another local establishment to let you get X amount of WVO. This way you know in advance that once you arrive and do your show you will have "fuel" to make it to the next one!
Also you might check with where you will be, or some of the other local establishments before you get there and see if you can have or buy at a reasonable rate some WVO (I read some where that the contractors where paying $20 a bin?) Could you offer maybe $20 a half a bin? I don't know the size or anything like, and I know it's not "FREE". But still cheaper than diesel, jail & a lawyer!

JMHO FWIW! ;D  BK  ;D

Lovrbus,
     You said your son is paying $1.60/gal for new veg oil.  Now I would not be into the collection of WVO at all, but buying and using new stuff at that price seems attractive.  It would seem that there could easily be coops producing Biodiesel for around $2.00/gal.

I had a discussion with a friend about this blog a couple months ago. We met each other because of this blog and I am grateful for that. You know who you are. Towards the end of looking at his what can only be described as "works of art" buses he sheepishly turned to me and said:

"so what do you think of the bus blog"?

I replied "there is no greater wealth of knowledge for a bus owner on the planet"

to which he replied "yeah but I'm not sure it's worth the downside of the consistent bickering and condescension that come with the valuable advice". I think he said something like "there's something repulsive about a know it all who actually does know it all." I believe there is truth in that statement.

It's funny one of the by-products in making Biodiesel from WVO is glycerin. A bunch of clogging yucky junk that accompanies the good stuff.

As of this entry I withdraw from any activity that remotely enables or encourages argumentative or condescending behavior from this point forward. You win guys. You know who you are and everyone else does as well. You will get no more arguments from me. Life is too short and if I continue I will lose the good stuff that this blog has to offer.

I am grateful to Busted Knuckle for his honesty,humility and humanity that helped me to see that sometimes the best way to win the game is to not play the game. Thanks to everyone for their attempts to help me solve a number of issues with my bus.

Quote from: RickB on September 26, 2008, 08:31:41 PM
$1.30 a gallon. 3 three hours of work. Sounds awfully good to me...

I am sure you guys have got alot of opinions about this so I'm all ears.

But you started it!  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Be careful what you ask for.  ;)

Based on some threads concerning WVO & biodiesel, this one was tame.  :o



I just found this one that seems to address several on the nuances in running bio & wvo. . . . .

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7433.0

Quote from: RickB
I had a discussion with a friend about this blog a couple months ago. We met each other because of this blog and I am grateful for that. You know who you are. Towards the end of looking at his what can only be described as "works of art" buses he sheepishly turned to me and said:

"so what do you think of the bus blog"?

I replied "there is no greater wealth of knowledge for a bus owner on the planet"

to which he replied "yeah but I'm not sure it's worth the downside of the consistent bickering and condescension that come with the valuable advice". I think he said something like "there's something repulsive about a know it all who actually does know it all." I believe there is truth in that statement.

It's funny one of the by-products in making Biodiesel from WVO is glycerin. A bunch of clogging yucky junk that accompanies the good stuff.

As of this entry I withdraw from any activity that remotely enables or encourages argumentative or condescending behavior from this point forward. You win guys. You know who you are and everyone else does as well. You will get no more arguments from me. Life is too short and if I continue I will lose the good stuff that this blog has to offer.

I am grateful to Busted Knuckle for his honesty,humility and humanity that helped me to see that sometimes the best way to win the game is to not play the game. Thanks to everyone for their attempts to help me solve a number of issues with my bus.

Well I for one am honestly sorry that it was taken this way! As high lighted below I pointed out that I enjoyed learning about this as well as any other topic controversial or uncontroversial both!
JMHO FWIW! ;D  BK  ;D

Quote from: Busted Knuckle
Now back to the topic at hand. I have no knowledge of the pros and cons of WVO. Except that I know that the space, & time it requires make it very impractical for my use in the charter biz. But I welcome the debate and educated experiences on it as I am going to build my own conversion someday and by then maybe, just maybe you guys will have perfected a way to make it a simple reliable way of doing it!
JMHO FWIW! ;D  BK  ;D

I know I for one wish that  we could continue to follow up on these subjects with out alienating those brave enough to do it or ask about it to where they tuck tail and are never heard from again whether it be good or bad! I apologize if I for one have made ANYONE feel that their "topic" is not worth the hassle! In my opinion EVEN if it's me that is guilty of it is IGNOR the nay sayers and continue to debate this issue! I don't mean that to mean not to take the negative arguments into consideration, but to meant that just because they don't agree with you, don't let them ruin your efforts without prov-en facts that prove it's not worth persuing! AGAIN JMHO FWIW!
;D  BK  ;D

B.K. I plan to continue to visit here when I have a problem that the good folks of this blog may be able to help and when needed  I will help as well anyway I can. However, I will limit my reading of other people's responses.

For what it's worth, people like you are the reason I am not discontinuing my visits here.

Listen, some people don't like winless, arrogant arguments and others consider them fun and entertaining.

Besides, I gained plenty from this discussion. Sobering discussions about the real maintenance of these Bio diesel and WVO systems and also the comment that Dallas mistakenly sent to the folks with WVO on their car applied to my MCI as well. My airbox tube has been leaking like a sieve all over my car since I bought my bus and not just at idle. Dallas I am interested in those check valves but only if you'll explain how to install them.

Busetd Knuckle I'd like to stop by and meet you when we pass through your area later this month... We live in Nashville and will be on our way North. You up for it? Any RV parks nearby?

Sojouner,
You have it correct, I have several friends who run WVO in their MB diesels, but with separate tanks, pre heaters, separate filters, start up on diesel & and shut down on diesel, as you stated.

Teke,

Just how many of those MB's would you like as I can offer and many as you like at under $ 75,000 to you.
The Blue Tec's list at the dealer for $ 53,500.

I have three MB diesels and am extremely frugal, but do not see fit to use the WVO as of yet, logistics, time involved, filteration equipment, and separate tank/filters/inline fuel heaters. Maybe at $10.00 gal. but help us all if that day comes.

Drill Here, Drill Now, Drill of both coasts...

Gary

Quote from: RickB on September 29, 2008, 01:24:17 PM
Busetd Knuckle I'd like to stop by and meet you when we pass through your area later this month... We live in Nashville and will be on our way North. You up for it? Any RV parks nearby?

Rick you are welcome to stop by anytime! We are in and on the go all the time, but if you call ahead we can usually give you a basic Idea of our schedule!

Yes there are "parks" close by, but I use the term loosely as they are not my idea of a real "park". I mean if ya wanna be parked right on the edge of the HWY, in town, out in the sun with other RVs right next to ya I guess they are OK!

But if you'd like to stay out in a comfortable country setting you are welcome to set up camp here at our place! We have 30 Amp service and a dump station other than that it's just a place to park half way in between Wal-mart in UC and Fulton, KY!
We get occasional guest who stop in and say hi, and we get some who hang out for a day or 2 or 3 what ever suits ya.

The only thing I do have to warn ya about is sometimes charter buses come and go at weird hrs. And sometimes dad, Robert, Devin, or myself or all of us are in the shop at late hrs too! But of the guest we've had I've never heard any complaints of us keeping them up! Some even watch and wave or come to help with a cup of coffee in hand!

Shoot Dallas and Cat never even knew we had a tire EXPLODE on one of the buses at midnight while they were sleeping next to the shop!!
Dallas discovered it in the AM when he found the bus, tire, and mess we left behind in the shop! As we stole (stole is such a harsh word for taking an unattended bus while the owner slept and had no idea his wife said we COULD borrow it! LOL) borrowed a neighboring companies bus in the wee hrs of them morning and departed for Branson!

But usually things are much quieter around here than that particular time! Ask Cat & Dallas, Cody & Libby,Mike & Jay, Belfert, Gary & Linda, Jerry & Sharron, Uncle Ned & Wilma, Don (oopps may not wanna ask Don seems he had his own moment of despair here just prior to his departure thru no fault of his own or ours either for that matter!) Charley Davidson has been known to stop in and stay once in a while.
I know for a  fact I am forgetting some of those who've stayed over either by themselves or as part of a group! I apologize for any I forget it is not intentional at all! It's just that my memory is not as good as it used to be and I'd have to go back and look at prior post or notes to remember all who have graced us with the presence!

Just let us know when ya coming and we'll try to arrange to have drivers run the trips that are not designated driver deals (like mom & dad ALWAYS carry Murray States Equestrian Team, I always carry the FRAT groups, etc.).

Shoot if it's timed right we could have a "mini-non-rally" of our own! Last time I talked to Cody & Frank they were trying to make plans to be here toward the end of October at the same time!  (I'll do another thread and see who else might be interested!)

As I've said before any and all of you busnuts are welcome anytime! ;D  BK  ;D 

Quotecustomers complained of heat transfer when sitting close to the fire.

;D ;D ;D ;D

Reminds me of a friend back in high school.  We ALWAYS went to church camp in the summer and church camp ALWAYS ended with a bonfire.  This was back when 501s (metal button fly) were the "in" thing.  Well, by the end of the week, my friend was going "commando" ('cause some poor fool always forgot to bring enough undies) in his 501s (knockoffs).  So, we were in the middle of a serious emotional moment around the campfire (everyone facing the campfire in a circle speaking their piece about the week.) And he started getting really emotional.  He had actual TEARS in his eyes. The counselors were just sure that something REAL had happened for him.  They had no idea...  As soon as the closing prayer was over, he made the fastest 100-yard dash I have ever seen, straight into the lake.  Of course, those of us who had figured it out were in tears by now as well, but for an entirely different reason.  Took him a looooong time before he thought it was as funny as we did.

I view the people here like family, & you can trust family to speak their mind.
Here is a small piece of mine:
From reading the postings, it appears some were looking for condescending behavior, no big surprise that something could be found in a topic this contentious to satisfy that.

Some of the questions that beg to be asked:
What good is the answer if the one answering doesn't know that of which they speak?
What good is a discussion if nothing new is presented & everyone agrees?
If you already know the answer you want, why ask?

Bob

Rick,
welcome to bussing :),  yes a great crowd here

as with every crowd, the old law says "there's one in it" so be glad when you recognize that one, cause if you don't see one it means it's your turn ;D


just to be a busnut you have to have thick skin because there ain't a busnut here that hasn't been humbled a time or two by the bus itself :D  ( I know i have)

also, in type, it is really hard to judge emotions, intent, and meaning.

Busnuts we are, Stephen King we ain't :D


Also, part of the reason busnut are individuals is because the motto "do it your way!"

The information here is great and awsome and perfect ;), however, it comes with no warranties or garauntees.  which takes you back to you still being responsible for your own bus.  so when you post a question, you may get a slew of answers so you stll have to do what you want but at least you have thought thru some options and maybe saved yourself some heartache.  I post here even if i think i know what i want to do and i usually learn something and change my original plan.   

I don't agree with everybody here and every body doesn't agree with me, but since they are like family, they are entitled to be wrong ! :o ;D :D


So back to the oil, there is a long thread about this, I thought it was a sticky,  i'm sure there is a yahoo group too.  If you have what it takes to to make biodiesel, and you choose to address or ignore points brought up here and elswhere,  "do it your way!" 

post pics, we love pics, share your success & accomplishments along with your problems so we all learn. and people will be interested.

I have learned from this thread, especially about BK, whoda thunk! ???

also, careful what you ask for, you just might get it!!  asking for opinion here will certainly get plenty response, (polls--not so much :D)

Luvrbus,

Please forward Peach's address/phone/email to me.  I have people that can take that WVO off his hands and save him the disposal fee....maybe pay a little.  If he is interested I would like to talk to him about entering into a contract that would protect HIM for the sake of reliable service.  You need the stuff disposed of and I am sure he would like it hauled weekly instead of using a "tank" that gets emptied every couple months and takes up space and becomes a greasy eyesore.

Just spitballing here:  Would you be interested in having a quantity of Bio stockpiled in Phoenix for your visits as return fuel?  I think that could be worked out.  Let me know.

John

Rick,

I have been reading into the WVO, BioD and Waste Motor Oil and "out of spec" vegetable oil (OSVO)for more than a year.  I am no expert but I am not without knowledge either.  Still learning though.  I have more than one reason to be interested in the subject.  All of the stock used to produce these fuels is a waste product that has a negative impact on the environment.  Find a constructive use for this stuff and you help the planet....save some money at it and you have a win win situation that I find hard to ignore.

WMO:  Bad product and labeled Bio Hazard.  You need a licence to collect the stuff...EPA or some Fed.  If you can use this and offset the use of Dino you are helping our National balance of payments, saving money for yourself and eliminating the waste impact.  No down side.  WMO boilers are on the market and available at competitive prices.  Free fuel for heating and you can use it to heat your water and your bus barn the driveway and the Jacuzzi and not give a moments notice to fuel cost.  Also, it is a perfectly good additive to your fuel at a 10% ratio if you are running a "mechanical engine" and is harmless if filtered and neutralized.  After all, kerosene mixed at 10 gallons to 1 quart of MO equals Dino Diesel.  That's a fact!  With the cost of running a Wabosto and the like I would think that someone would be looking into converting those Puppys to WMO units but I hear nothing about that.  The commercial units go for one year with out cleaning but they do need cleaning..just like the ones that burn Home Heating Oil (HHO) or DinoD.

WVO:  Controversial.  Lots of credible studies by universities that say the stuff clogs the works.  It has stuff in it that is considered "bad" when it is contained in BioD.  STILL, so many people are using it  that there has to be some merit.  It will destroy a modern D with a fuel rail and a high pressure pump.  The pumps break when trying to handle the thick oil.  WVO will thicken to a solid at very high temps....depending on the oil stock variety. Palm oil will thicken at 70 degrees depending who you talk to but all the data I have seen say it stops pouring at 60 degrees.  Works great in the tropics and they do burn D there.

WVO conversions come in three varieties:  "One" season..summer only.  This has little heating of the fuel.
Three Season.  This can be used from spring to fall and will function at 35 degrees or so.
Four season.  Has tank heaters, fuel line heaters and fuel filter block heater.  They spec them for being operable down to various temps below zero.

You must have a regular tank for DinoD so you can warm up everything before switching to WVO and the same goes for the shut down.  Turn it off with WVO in the lines and you might have a real problem getting it going again.

BioD is here and it isn't going away.  While the fuel "cloud point" is subject to the stock the fuel is made from, that is easily dealt with by cutting in DinoD with its seasonal additives.  In Europe, all D must have a percent of Bio D and that percent is going up. 3 to 5% I think.  It is not a threat to the engine and all mfr.s are OK with this or they don't sell cars there.  That same engine in the US isn't approved for BioD and there is a reason.  Our BioD isn't controlled like in Europe.  You have more of a chance of getting "bad" Bio here and that can stop your engine.  Lots of reports of bad Bio but that gets more press and there is bad Dino out there and that isn't any sort of news and get ignored.  But that's my take on this and you can ask a trucker if they have even heard of any station anywhere selling bad Dino anywhere in the country over the past ten years.  In Europe they use Rape Seed oil as the favorite stock.  Rape is toxic and isn't grown over here in much quantity.  Canola oil is a Rape Seed hybrid that is a food stuff and plentiful.  It is popular because it has a low cloud point as Rape Seed does.

I think Brazil is Dino independent and has no Dino wells.  They make Ethanol and Bio D from veg stocks.  Sugar cane grows like a weed down there so distilling does wonders.  Dino import free...just imagine.

BioD cleans engines, is a solvent, makes almost no air pollutants has a high cetane so it doesn't knock and runs cooler.  You drop 3% power from Dino but don't miss it.  Engines live longer and run more efficiently.

Bio will mix with Dino and is sold here as B10 or 20 or even 100 with the number being the percent of Bio being added to the Dino.  At 10% it doesn't seem to impact the dirt in your fuel system.  Above ten and its solvent properties start to have an affect and you get dirt being lifted from the tank walls and fuel lines.  This leads to filter clogging is when you start using it you will have to carry spare filters till everything settles down.  Then there is the fact that the stuff hates copper and natural rubber.  Fortunately D system don't use all that much copper...but you have to "scrub" it out of the system.  With rubber it swells it and destroys the seals.  Fortunately there are Viton seals and fuel line available at a slightly higher price and that problem is solved.  I think that whole issue must apply to older D as the new cars have no problem.  The injectors are not on the radar and I think that is significant as there is a lot of chatter about the seals in fuel filters and connectors and hose and copper....but not injectors...mummmm.

Bio is CO2 neutral.  The plant takes CO2 out of the air and we put it back in the air when we burn the stuff and the cycle repeats.  Some say that there is no such thing as global warming so I guess they would say that burning Bio is pushing the planet into another ice age and that burning Dino is our only hope. I dunno, but those guys aren't shy or afraid of voicing an unsupported opinion or one that is backed up by 31,000 scientists..."just you count'em off folks" said the barker.  They have their position and I am not belittling them as much as I might seem.

OSVO and Straight Veg oil ,SVO is coming on like gang busters in the farmland.  Farmers are getting Dino free by the oodles.  They grow the grain and invest in seed presses to make their own oil.  They are getting into oil coops and making Bio big time.  NO TAX and the oil is "free".  From what I read the farmers have been filling their D equipment with VO for years....except in the cold months.  The beauty of Bio is that they can use that fuel in everything, including the HHO furnace, all year long.  They run B50 in the winter but their fuel requirement is low at that time of year in the cold places.

This is an engrossing subject to me.  Save the planet and all that and save a buck and I like the hobby.  Chemistry isn't something I have ever been into and I like new stuff, especially if I have a use.

If you think there isn't any chatter out there about the failings of making Bio you are mistaken and badly so.  Yahoo groups about BioD and WVO are chock full of disaster reports on the mfr of the stuff and they come in by the plenty every day.  Just visit the board.

So, Rick.  Any and all of them are viable as fuels.  Bio is my choice cause it will work anywhere.  WMO is still on my mind for a heating fuel but I need a new house to take advantage of it.

Hope this somthing like what you were looking for and I also hope you reconsider you opting out.

John

JohnEd...Thanks for your homework about WVO, BioD, WMO and OSVO in a nut shell.

Now just in the last week posts wanting know more about WVO, 1 user (iminaccess) respond their experiences after miles of traveling. These reports are complete with the negative and positive side. That is good for us none WVO user to know. Thanks to RickB and iminaccess supports. 

Maybe more the alternative fuel user will start opening up to share their good and bad experiences.

Canola bulk oil:
http://www.bulkoil.com/scripts/oiltype_item.asp?p=23

Where can we get canola oil for $2.00 per gallon?

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

Brassman,

You mentioned the use of a centrifuge.  For my money it is a must have piece of equipment.  Pass your WMO through it and you get almost clear and most importantly DEWATERED WMO.  It has some trace of metals and acid but apparently that doesn't have the harsh affect that is intuitive or that the University studies have reported.

SVO is supposed to be water free.  "Supposed" is the operative word.  Two ways to dewater....220 degrees F or a cent.  This is a precaution.

WVO is full of crap to start with.  Water is always there and particulate.  The cent is the way to handle both.  You can "wash" WVO with tap water and get the acids down and remove the natural soaps.  Then dry it.  I have never heard of a single person using WVO that goes to this trouble and I guess that speaks to how anal I am.

Bio can't be made from watery oil.  The stock must be dry or the process is short circuited and you get crap that is hard to clean from your equipment.

There is a cent called "SIMPLE CENTRAFUGE".  It uses a 8 inch wheel spinning at 3400 RPM and will handle a lot of oil per hour.  The other cents. like the dieselcraft have smaller spinning wheels to extract the impurities.  It ha drawbacks such as needing to have a drain tank put in place before you shut it down and the speed is hard to control and it has maybe 1/10 the capacity....but it does work very well and is cheaper than the Simple Centrifuge.

Even finished BioD should be passed through the cent to remove glycerin and water from washing and who knows where that hard stuff came from.  That is my personal opinion but I will have one and not everybody does.

Thanks Gerald,

John