BCM Community

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=66097&catid=2

You might want fill up diesel if you can, tonight.

Yike, Yike, Yike, Yike

Sojourn for Christ,  Gerald

PS...already a line up at our Elloree SC gas station at 6:30 pm.

http://www.southcarolinagasprices.com/

It's sad, because the price continues to drop on the international market, the Per barrel price is very close to 100 now and still falling.  It's too bad that the greed that this is a part of couldn't be curtailed in some way, the pump price has always been tied to the market price of crude, this is completely against that principle and purely motivated by greed and the urge to take advantage of the people that are being hit by Ike.  This is gouging in the most horrendous way ( I put that word in for slow rider, he likes when I use a big word now and then, even if I don't know what it means).lol

Gas prices today up here in Minneapolis are still pretty stable.  Good thing I just filled my TDI Golf yesterday and won't need to fill again until maybe Oct 1st.

I'm hoping damage from the hurricane is minimal since I'm doing 4,000 miles in my bus in 10 days.  Maybe the $5 a gallon we were planning for earlier this summer will come true.  (Hope not!)

There will be episodes and incidents that will keep fuel on peoples minds but the gas price will drop until the Nov elections are over.  :P Then it will skyrocket till people scream and then it will drop back to just a little higher than it started and most will breath a collective sigh and forget about it.  ???

My prediction,

John

All the media has to do is say BOO! concerning gas price/ availability & everyone runs out to fill their tanks with gas. The sudden rise in demand causes local outages. Then neighboring areas get spooked & the panic spreads.

After Katrina, the media was reporting the pipelines were flowing at only 60% of capacity, fueling continued panic & stress. What they didn't report was that 60% was normal capacity & production was back to normal.

Sure, there will be limited production as a result of the storm, but we could weather this easier if we didn't panic & rush out to 'get it before someone else does'.

Just my thoughts . . . .

Hay,

Now there's an industry the gubberment should be stepping in on but, nnnoooo....

Just my 2 gallons
Nick-

What is supposed to have caused it? The prices in Spartanburg seem to be steady.

IKE in the gulf of Mexico

Nick-

I am confused. Why is gas supposed to jump about $1.00 in one day?  That in itself would be a record jump.  What is happening tomorrow to make it go that high? A hurricane will not make it jump that much at one time.

It's just good old fashioned price gouging.

I don't know that it changed - it was $3.33 in Greenville this afternoon? Might be some local rip offs?

Really!

Well, we will just see about that.................

Speculation X Panic = Distorted reality

YMMV

Cliff

Quote from: bubbaqgal on September 11, 2008, 07:16:20 PM
I am confused. Why is gas supposed to jump about $1.00 in one day?  That in itself would be a record jump.  What is happening tomorrow to make it go that high? A hurricane will not make it jump that much at one time.

What Cliff said +

Supply & demand.

People lining up to get it.

If we ALL said "no thanks, I'll walk (or take vacation or time off w/o pay or whatever)" Then the prices wouldn't go or stay that high.

When enough charge more & we still buy it, the rest raise their price so they aren't left out.

Quote from: niles500 on September 11, 2008, 07:23:42 PM
I don't know that it changed - it was $3.33 in Greenville this afternoon? Might be some local rip offs?

It was $3.619 this afternoon on my drive home from Spartanburg to Greer & Nancy said the prices from Greenville to greer weren't much different either.

Just bought Diesel in L.A. tonight for 3.99.  Good Luck, TomC

The issue is that the wholesale price charged for gasoline on the Gulf coast jumped Thursday from $3.23 in the morning to $4.73 at the end of the day.  Wholesale prices in New York increased by a fraction of that.

I remember hurricane Katrina and in Minneapolis, MN unable to get diesel for my TDI Golf due to the panic buying.  The lines were such that I couldn't get to the diesel pump at stations that had the diesel pump on the same island at gas pumps.  I finally went to a station that had diesel off to the side as I was desperately low on fuel unlike most of the panic buyers.  I also remember gasoline going to $3.29 after Katrina and remembering how extremely high that price was at the time.

Deleted.  I was looking at diesel prices, not gas prices.  Gas prices have barely gone up locally.

I need an OBJECTIVE (such that the application of the definition is not subject to opinion) definition of two terms (in a product price context) before I blow a gasket:

"greed"

"gouging"

Thanks,

Kevin

I'm just not sure either is possible, the objective definition is going to be bad for either terms. It's just plain sad that the gas that is sitting in a fuel tank in the morning is valued at a given price point and suddenly because if becomes something that is needed so that people can flee a terrible storm or possibly just to survive it, suddenly it becomes worth over a dollar a gallon more and all within the same day, I know all about 'supply and demand' and now we're learning about plain old greed.  Instead of helping our neighbors the stations are fleesing them.  Years ago, up here, a terrible forest fire swept thru the area, a region close to here was devestated, most homes were lost and a lot of lives destroyed, here, stores opened their doors and put together boxes of groceries for the people that had lost everything at no cost, motels opened their doors and gave these people free rooms, furniture was rounded up and clothing, nobody expected it, it was just the right thing to do and it was done without hesitation or any thoughts of reward, it was just done because it needed to be done.  One thing tho, there will be many untold stories of neighbors helping neighbors after Ike roars thru, the basic principle of the good in people coming thru will be seen, unfortunately, it just won't be made public cause it isn't newsworthy.

So... Knowing there may be a shortage and you might not be able to get fuel next week, what is to prevent you from going down and sucking up all of that fuel at the low price?  And too bad for the guy who gets there an hour later and there is no fuel left...sucks to be him.

I'm sorry, I guess I just don't understand business and the principles of milking every penny out of people that are already hard hit just so a person can make a profit off a bad situation, yep, sucks to be the person pulling up to the pump.

gas prices are pretty stable in the Houston area I spoke with my daughters today in Houston and Baytown and they said gas prices ranges froms  $3.29 to $3.60 a gal in their area but said somebody will try and gouge the public

Like the old tales...wherever we live and need transportation to get to & fro, we choose where to live and freedom to go anywhere via vehicle you chosen whether it's low or high mpg to transport one or more people at the same time. In other words, we gamble with our living area where all type of danger can happen and we depend on our fuel companies to supply our needs at a price that keep them busy.

During hurricane event, our fuel companies has to control the supply and pay the cost of down times, reserve fuel for the families emergency needs, repair the rigs (driller) & platforms (pumping) and pay their workers wage during emergency down time.

BTW, they can ship crude oil else wherever other counties willing to pay more then we do. We are about half of China is paying now.

So in the mean time we need to keep praying that this storm will be minimizing to get it back in working order fastest.

Oh I forgot something...who pay for damage filling station?

Hurricane Ike Threatens Facilities in the Central GOM Sept 10, 2008
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=66473

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

West Columbia  $5.499
http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=66097&catid=2&GID=1oi9wbxludcZzyF+LhnLR3hPGH0TaQW9N7Q9l2dVCgY%3D

After open this link...zoom out until you see all the red spots USA of $4 or more :
http://www.southcarolinagasprices.com/map_gas_prices.aspx?z=11&lat=33.247984&long=-81.347065&sid=12576&ft=A

Tomorrow reopen the above link for the latest.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ

I fully understand whats happening, I just don't agree with it, I'll fall back on the simple principles of right and wrong, in my opinion, and it is only my opinion, it's right to charge a fair price that will ensure enough of a profit to keep in business, what, to me, is wrong is the guys that were charging 25 dollars a bag for a small bag of ice after Katrina just because they could get it and people were desperate to keep the 15 dollar loaf of bread they had just bought from spoiling in the 10 dollar cooler that they just paid 100 dollars for, it's sad when people don't have a problem with all that and in fact seem to be able to justify it.

Right on cody, glad somebody feels this way, i sure do, they always have aexcuse. we are now sitting waiting for a hurricane to pass, gas and deisel prices seem to be ok here in Texas, but i feel that 3.99 a gal is too much money for a low caliber fuel. ill close before i get slammed with a bunch of people that dont agree. its a sorry state of affairs when this kind of thig goes on
Frank Allen 4106

Guys back in the 70's when the embargo hit the state of Texas had laws to keep that from happening on gas they posted a price that the stations could not charge anymore than what was posted by the State. I spoke with one of my daughters about hour ago in Houston and she said prices at the place where she buys gas it's still the same price

Cody, I recall on a post about fuel prices a while back I was basically told something along the lines of "It's business and has nothing to do with right or wrong.  I said then, and I will say again, it IS about right and wrong!

The Attorney General in NC said today he wants the name and location of price gougers, and he will make them pay!
Jack

My definition is that greed is a excessive desire to posses more than one deserves, has actually earned or needs.  I think greed is a general attitude.  Price gouging is setting a price so high as to swindle or extort excessive profit from the buyer.

I think that the thing that bothers people the most is that none of their oil pumped in the US of A comes from private land.  It all comes from public lands leased to oil companies and part of the agreement is that the oil companies are to act in the public good.  What I see is that the people that are in the most desperate need are gouged the most while people with a casual need and have no desperate buy motive are given a price break perhaps to encourage their consumption.

The system seems out of whack.  Especially when it is our heritage to be generous and charitable to those in need.  Nice to see others sharing feelings that parallel mine.

John

I'm so glad that other people feel the same way, I was afraid I was the odd one out for a while, well, odd anyway, actually borderline strange lol. Oh ok, I'm oddly strange according to what was just yelled at me lol.  Diesel here right now is 3.82 and gas is 3.82, now that is strange lol

Guys I don't like $5 fuel any better than the next guy.  And I won't like $6 or $7 fuel either.  But greed isn't the enemy.  Free market greed is a good thing.  And gubbermint interference isn't the solution.  Free market greed puts more computing power in my pocket than was on the first moon rocket.  Free market greed provided the technology that enabled the internet that supports this community.  Free market greed gives all of us a standard of living that would have been unimagineable 100 years ago.  Every time somebody starts talking about how somebody should do something about fuel prices I get really worried because the somebody is government and what they end up doing is never productive.  In the commodity markets high prices bring low prices.  But with oil there's a 10 year lag between discovery and production so it takes time.  And we're never going to see $20 oil again.  That's just the way it is.  $50 or $60 - maybe - but $20 is gone into the history books.

well it jumped here in NW Georgia. $3.60 yesterday morning to $4.30 now if you find it. saw several stations out of fuel. in Knoxville where my folks live it is as high as $5.00. oddly diesel has not changed one cent.?????
steve

Bob,

Everything you say is correct, as i was taught...to a degree. 8)  Instead of "greed" my text referred to "profit motive"(PM). :)  I did say I thought it was a universal.  Greed was presented as where PM could be expected to evolve if left unchecked or unbridled.  It was refer ed to as the FREE aspect of FREE enterprise.  PM causes a weeding of the least efficient companies and the survivors are the most greedy or highly motivated or most "efficient".  There is no force that has enuf power to withstand the onslaught of corp outrage that regulating will inspire than the Gummint.  Gummint is your only hope when you find yourself at crossed swords with a Corp.

ENRON was made possible by the Gummint recending laws that prevented it.  Utilities regulation.

JD Rockerfeller was slapped down for using his corp leverage to influence the shipping costs charged by rail roads to his competition.  Restraint of trade legislation.  Fair Trade Act, etc.

Predatory pricing between industries located in states led to Restraint of Trade laws and the regulation of interstate trade.  Interstate trade commission (ITC)

The history books are rife with examples of why Gummint reg was required.  In none of those did I find an example of where the general public was not the victim that was being protected.  No matter how far removed he was.  Our Nation was built on principles like these.....til recent history.  Used to be that people looked to the Gumint for guidance and protection.  Today the general public is subjected to propaganda that the Gummint is the enemy and corp giants such as EXXON are our only hope for lower fuel prices.  There are a lot of people out there that will accept a one word explanation for any social ill..."Gummint!".  The great lie is that Gummint hurts the common man and all you have to do is look at who will prosper without regulation and who will provide the capitol to fuel that prosperity to see through that.  In fact, you have to really be committed to keeping your head in the sand to escape coming to other than the "common" or popular conclusion.  News papers need to consolidate without Gummint reg.  News media such as radio, print and TV should be permitted to consolidate in different locations.  News media should be permitted to consolidate "IN" any given market/location.  Laws regulating the funds deposited in Savings and Loans enterprises should not be regulated.  Banks should be unregulated.  Who will profit from all this deregulation?  The media says it will be the common man.  They have many well intentioned folk selling the Snake Oil that will eventually poison them, you and I and our children.  Sure some of it needs updated and rewritten but let us not throw the baby out with the bath water.  Please, for all our sakes.

OK, I'm outta breath now.  Please don't hate me cause I think most of us are trying to get to the same goal post but are taking a different route and allowing ourselves to be guided by different forces.  One of those forces is , in fact, greedy. ::)

Wasn't the favorite disciple a taxcollector?  And didn't the other disciples declare that such a "low life" shouldn't be admitted to the inner circle?  Being anti tax and anti Gummint isn't such a new thing.

John

John,
     I have always found the Stockholm Syndrome to be very interesting (the phenomenon where the hostage takes on the views of the captor as with Patty Hearst).  I believe that there are many variations of the same condition.  For example, there are many cases where a subjugated country or group adopts the beliefs of their oppressors, sort of a Mass Stockholm Syndrome.  There also is something that we could call the Reverse Stockholm Syndrome in which a group that appears to be in authority, such as Prison Correctional Officers, who take on some of the beliefs of those they theoretically supervise.  This could be said to happen because they are vastly outnumbered and they generally maintain control only with the cooperation of, using the same example, the inmates.  Might there also be political and economic variations of the same syndrome?  Would the motto, "If you can't beat them, join them," be a summary of the condition?

     There is no research to support these speculations, but the concepts are interesting.

Lin,

I hadn't heard of that but I am certain without doubt that you are correct about "some".  No doubt at all.  Those people are at a serious internal conflict at some level.  That "Gummint never works" propaganda works to sooth their mixed/conflicting emotions.  Just to "Shrink" the crap outta this.

Just look at the recent posts that suggest the oil companies are deserving of our sympathy because they have expenses.  Or that any regulation will lead to a failure of the oil industry and destroy us all.  Or that the oil companies deserve their windfall or price gouging profit levels "because" gross and net profits are not the same thing.  The mind boggles.

Thanks for your post Lin,

John

If there is no supply, why shouldn't gasoline wholesalers charge more for a product they may not be able to replace in the immediate future?  The gasoline wholesaler may be facing a stretch of days with zero revenue or profit due to no supply of gasoline.

Most, if not all, of the refineries in the hurricane path are shut down either due to staff evacuations or lack of oil to refine due to oil platform shutdowns.

Some of the situation is exacerbated by folks who run out and fill every vehicle and gas can they own because they fear future price increases or lack of supply.

Here in Minnesota, most stations in my area are at $3.79 and Thursday most were between $3.49 and $3.59.

I spoke with my daughter in Houston and she told me not all stations that have power to pump gas are not gouging the public but some are the lack of electricity is the problem.A Phillips 66 where she buys the guy from India the owner reduced his price to $3.29 but has one grade only but told her he had 70,000 gals in his tanks and is trying to help the people in his new country not make a big profit, to bad others in the area don't learn from this guy

And at what point does a loaf of bread bring 20 dollars or 30 dollars is their any limit where the price becomes obscene? I have very little sympathy for the station that suddenly feels it's justified to charge any price it wants, I won't buy football tickets from scalpers either.

Cody, my daughter told me Wal-Mart was the first in the area to start raising prices on gasoline so no more Wal-Mart for me not even overnight parking

I have yet to see a definition of "greed" or "price gouging" that did not assume some magic threshold based on OPINION.  So, then the question becomes, "Who's opinion do we use?"  If MY opinion is that you are charging too much for your product or service, should I be allowed to use govt. force to make you lower the price?  Think about the job you do every day... Are you sure you want some bureaucrat (think Diane Feinstein, Bernie Sanders, Al Gore, Cynthia McKinney, Ted Kennedy, et al, deciding how much you can or cannot charge for your product or service?  Maybe you work for a company... If they decide that your boss is charging too much, how is he going to make up that money?  Maybe he decides to take it out of your salary, or eliminate your salary altogether.  It has to come out of someone's pocket.

As much as I dislike high prices, in a true free market, rising prices (especially in a time of shortage) prevent over-consumption.  Example:  You own a hotel just north of Houston.  People are headed your way in droves to escape the storm.  You have 5 rooms left, space (if a little cramped) for 5 families, especially with a hide-a-bed or two.  Not vacation arrangements mind you, but it will work in a pinch for a might or two.  A guy pulls in with a van full of family.  How much for a room?  You, being the moral person you are, give him the standard rate, no "gouging" here.  Well, damn, at that rate, he and his wife can have a room to themselves. The two boys can have a room to themselves, as can the girls.  Grandma would like her own room as well.  And Uncle Joe, no one wants to listen to him snore.  So, he takes all five rooms...  Just how moral will the next four families coming down the road think you are?  On the other hand, if you increase that rate  when the shortage comes, it makes it harder for the first guy to justify paying for multiple rooms, so he limits his consumption and there is some left for the next guy.


There used to be companies from the Atlanta area that, after a hurricane or some such in Florida, would load up trucks with  generators and drive down to try to sell them.  Did they charge a premium?  Heck yes, they incurred the initial investment, all of the risk, invested the time to transport them, etc.  They never had a problem selling all they took down and most people were enormously grateful to see them.  But, a couple years ago, a few people complained to the state of Florida about the higher prices and one of the companies was fined for "price gouging".  So now, no more help.  Not worth the trouble...


Just a thought or two...

I believe they are called scalpers.  I'm not saying your perspective is wrong, I just see it as distorted and extremely opportunistic, why would anyone want to take advantage of people in a time of hardship just to turn a massive quick profit, during a time like that we should help them, not break them.

I think that doctors should charge according how sick you are.  If you have a simple problem, say a cold, the doctor should figure out how much relieving the symptoms is worth to you and charge what he can get.  Now if you need pain meds, he should know that the more pain you are in, the more he can charge.  After all, he has to make a living.  When you bring a sick kid in with a high fever or something worse, that is his real chance to make money.  Let the market decide who lives!

And another thing, why is the government butting in to other areas they shouldn't.  If a ten year old wants to work, and a business can hire one for less than an adult, shouldn't the government mind its own business and let the market work.  When I lived in India there were lots of kids cleaning parts with gasoline on the street for 12 hours a day.  If the kid didn't want to do it, he would quit, right.  Don't get me started on the government there not wanting kids blown up in fireworks factories.  Those kids know the risk when they take the job.  If the fireworks companies had to hire and train adults and run safe facilities, they would go out of business and no one would benefit.  Where would the spirit of capitalism be then?  And what's all this about the government picking on China.  So they put melamine in baby food and make toys that cause seizures if kids put them in their mouths, can't someone make a clever profit without some liberal regulator interfering.  I don't see any shortage of kids in the world anyway.

The government should stick to what it is supposed to do like bombing other countries and leave Americans alone.  Health care, livable wages, welfare-- all waste.  Let the market decide who dies and who starves.  As long as the prisons are big enough, we're okay.  Do you know that the government does not allow you to sell your own organs?  They're your organs, aren't they?  You can't even sell your kids anymore.  In ancient Rome, a father had the right to kill his kids.  They're his kids, right?  And what's with this liberal notion against slavery?  The founding fathers had slaves.  So, all of a sudden we're better than the founding fathers?  Let's get back to the basics this country was founded on when only male property owners could vote and a company could hire thugs to beat up those lousy labor agitators.  Strong is good, isn't it?  Weak is bad, isn't it?  No more of this "least of my creatures" stuff.  That was before we knew about the divinity of the profit motive.  If God didn't like greed, he wouldn't have made so much of it, right?

Sorry, this is just so much fun!

Cody,

I hear ya but I fears you are trying to "push" a string.    There are people out there that will concede that we can put a man on the moon but we can't figure a way to prevent price gouging by unethical slime.  I am amazed that people think that if you give the gummint the authority to cap the price of fuel in a crisis or emergency it will be the end of life as we know it on earth and at least the final death blow to capitolism.

A fellow Knut sent me documentation on global warming in which it was claimed that 31,000 climate scientists were on record as saying that there is no such thing as global warming and the scientists that think there is warming are dupes that are in the pocket of Al Gore and his price gouging minions.  Now would you want to continue a serious discussion with a man of that mindset?  I know for a fact that the guy is intelligent.  But, really..... There aren't that many climate scientists in our galaxy let alone planet.  Don't ask me how I know that.

There is a strong faction in Russia that wants to establish Stalin's successor and vest that individual with  all of 'Uncle Joe's" dictatorial powers.  We have our brand of that mentality here also and I don't think they can be reasoned with any more than those Ruskies.

Be strong and keep your mindset.  It is a pleasure to be of your species.

John

Lin,

You rock!  I am on your side no matter what side that is.  Child labor laws as a social ill.  Priceless!

Please write more and more often.  Our very own little Daily Show.  Can we schedule you a time slot?   or slut....whatever...just do it again.

Thank you from the bottom of my damp handkerchief.

John

I too don't like to pay more for fuel than need to. But we have choices to live more mean full then we have in the pass like our ancestors does everyday. In the mean time, we need to think alternative fuel or transportation to get to from point A to B.

BTW...we have attorney general to control the rip-off high gouging gas prices. He hears from callers and makes the rip-off pay a $5000 per violation. http://www.wspa.com/spa/news/local/article/south_carolina_attorney_general_south_carolina_price_gouging_law_in_effect/8418/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Talk about having government to help the not so well poor persons in this gas prices topic.

I thought to post the following to those that think it need government to bail them out.

The following is what my father, grandfather and great-grandfather life's goals. In other words, limited government will allow us to make a goal to live by.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How to have something to live for and be proud of your life.

1)   Get your spiritual life in order.
2)   Keep body healthy.
3)   Set a life's goal to thrive to do your very best and yearning to learn more about things that will make you better able to the job easier and more productive.
4)   Always want to learn more....don't let your brain become stagnant.
5)   Keep a positive attitude, even in times of adversity.
6)   Always learn from your mistakes.
7)   Learn self discipline.
8]   Be a good steward with your finances and energy.
9)   Don't always limit your labor to 8 hour a day/ 5 days per week


These are a few things that will give you good success and good life. No hard working man that is well to do limit himself to 8 hour per day and 5 days a week.

Whoever does the above things, many good things will come to your life and you will prosper.


Having the high earner to pay greater income taxes so that none-ambitious person gets government supports is a negative way of life and unfair practice.

Only handicap person that is unable to work physically should get government supports

Here is few more suggestion:
http://www.mindtools.com/page6.html

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

Left New York yesterday am and got into fla today at 11...(in a car) on the average, gas was 3.60 t0 3.80. diesal seemed to hang around the high 3's , low 4's. Gas just outside of Fort Myers was 3.67 this morning..haven't seen any local diesal prices yet.

Gerald,

The current crop of disasters on Wall St.  are the result of the gummint "not" being involved.  Since Reagan the gummint has been backing out of regulation of everything from airlines to investment banks.  In every big push to minimize gummint we have seen a massive failure that the General Fund, read that as your money", has to bail out.  Savings and Loan bailout was started when Reagan lifted the regulation and allowed the S&L industry to make "speculative loans/investment".  Remember the mantra?  Get the regulators out and let industry make the decisions it needs to to generate BIG profits for investors.  That didn't work out well for the investors but the people that became eligible to borrow from what had been the most restrictive and safe institutions raped the system and the tax payer picked up the tab.  Why people can't see that the deregulation zeal is a front for the political operatives to stuff their pockets.

While the dust was still in the air from the S&L crap I heard the then pres. say that we needed to deregulate the banking industry as quickly as possible.  You could have knocked me over with a feather.  You could have reused the propaganda from the S&L crap by just substituting the terms S&L and Banking.  Nobody caught on and decent people picked up the mesage "Get the infernal Gummint out of the Bankers hair so they can make the common man rich".  Gage!  Next it went from making more speculative loans to letting banks sell securities.  That was met with an outcry of protest from conservatives with a sense of business logic and a six month memory and the faculty to connect really big dots.  That act to get gummint out of the life of bankers did not make the common man rich but some bank investors raped the system with securities scams and when a bank the FDIC stepped in and protected the depositors up to $50 K with tax dollars.

Then came the flood of realestate investment and loan bundling and that seemed to crush the investors and banks that underwrote those "no down home loans" with adjustable rates.  This time the gummint made BIG bailout grants to the banks and the banks immediately paid off their most expensive loans that they made to each other with money that was intended to shore up the lending so the home industry wouldn't collapse.  After shrewdly using the money for their own investors purposes the banks STOPPED writing new loans alltogether.  And they did it without gummint interference or strings attached to the grants.  After all, everybody knows the gummint never got involved in anything that ever worked out.  Lots of congressmen and Senators protested that loans or grants with out "strings" and gummint controls would find their way into investors pockets in a New York.  Now just because the proponents of regulation have proved right in so many instances is not "proof" that they know squat or we should not continue to ignore them about their knowledge of Greed being the common motivator in business.  There is no irrefutable proof as Rush says.

I would strongly suggest a course of action for all those that are fundamentally opposed to gummint regulation.  Sell off all you securities and stocks in US owned or controlled corporations.  Take that money and invest it in Mexican securities and stocks and transfer all your deposits to a Mexican Bank.  These institutions are seriously not regulated.  By the current formula for success circulated among liberals, these are the investments most rich in opportunity and profit for the investor.  Their gummint does not interfere down there.  If you are opposed to gummint regulation....go south.  You need not relinquish your citizenship to relocate your capitol as that commodity is truly not impeded by national boundary.

There is so much to say on this matter and so little time.  Don't forget...gummint can prevent a affluent minority of investors from making a killing in commerce and that's just not "fair"....its just "flat wrong" according to them.  They have a need for your money and deregulating will grease the skids of the transfer.  Now lets talk about investing the Social Security Trust Fund in the shadow of the ever expanding shadow of the banking implosion.  Really.  Lets get talking about that so all the interested parties can get down to compromising on the solution.

Then again there is the gummint lack of fuel price regulation that used to be imposed in time of crisis.  Usually was an act to cap the price of fuel.  The logic was that the previous price or the price in other areas was indicative of the true cost of production and added profit.  Exceeding that price was opportunistic and inflicted on the payers by a corp taking unfair advantage of an act of God .  This seems to be what is happening with the hurycane victums whose lives have been turned upside down.  I heard an interview by a proponent of price caps say that "no corp has ever been known to go broke as a result of caps but every industry has claimed that the result will be total bankruptsy and disruption of bidness.  Now isn't that exactly what exorbitant price hikes during a disruptive disaster result in?  I think some regulation is needed here and we should be able to see what no regulation does to the common taxpayer.

Paul Revere and others,

John

QuoteThe current crop of disasters on Wall St.  are the result of the gummint "not" being involved.

Now THAT is hysterical...  Please find a local corporate attorney and ask him how much the govt. is "not" involved.  There are enough regulations covering Wall St. to fill numerous volumes, literally.  In fact, we waste billions of $$ every year in this country to do nothing more than handle the paperwork of govt. regulation.  This I know for an absolute fact because I do it for a living.  I and my (not small) staff do nothing more for our company that handle the administrative BS involved in compliance with Sarbanes-Oxley and Gramm-Leach-Bliley.  And I really do not want to do this (not my original area of expertise), but it is such a b@#$% for the company that they asked me to deal with it and try to find a way to reduce the financial cost of compliance.

And the 31,000 scientists that have signed the statement are not climate scientists, nor does the documentation claim that they are.  They are, however, all scientists that specialize in a field that has some connection to the causes and evidences related to global climate (geologists, climatologists, paleontologists, etc.)  In other words, their specialties are such that they might actually know what they are talking about when they talk about climate and its' impact in the earth.   As opposed to the Kyoto crap, where over half of the scientists involved were specialists in things like psychology.

And no one ever said that freedom was not risky...  In fact, quite the opposite...  Freedom includes the freedom to screw-up big time, but it also includes the freedom to risk it all and claim the payoff when you succeed.  If you want the ultimate in security, check into your local death row prison cell.  Also note, no form of socialism has ever eliminated poverty.  What was it that Dostoevsky said:

"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet, and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'"

You can say what you want but on the way to Texas Bus Roundup on Thursday I paid 3.36 for unleaded and on the way back it was 4.65 and I saw some for 4.95. Can tyou spell gouge. The news wsas announcing free stay at Eisenhower park where we were for people running from Ike.

I will say that Ktmossman certainly makes a compelling arguement for what he so firmly believes in and whether he is right or wrong makes very little differnece as we all see things from a different viewpoint..  At the risk of being controversial I allowed an economics professor from Michigan Tech, (old family friend) read the thread, his words were, "anyone that has an actual grasp or even the slightest inkling of business and how it relates to government and governmental intervention would find the discussion highly entertaining, clearly Mr. Ktmossman can't be serious in advancing such an erronious (sp) perception, he has to be playing the devils advocate for the sake of discussion." That hadn't occured to me, well done Mr Ktmossman.  I have enjoyed seeing the different viewpoints but I'm sure everyone feels we have kind of beaten this to death lol.

When I heard locally that gasoline was going to take a jump of about .60 a gallon earlier this week I observed the long lines that day and the yellow flags on the empty pumps the following day. Guess you can't blame the sheeple from doing what the masses are doing...but...

My best information told me that gasoline supplies were low in the pipelines before "Ike" hit TX and LA and no matter what amount of damage the refineries around Galveston would be changing over to produce diesel and heating oil when they went back on line.

Then, after the storm,, the oil industry made statements that there was no shortage of gasoline..the tank farms had plenty.

Now I've been lied to before..hell I've been married 3 times...but I sure would like to see of any of these affected states Attorneys General finds the time or the inclination to inquire as to whether or not this is simply malicious price gouging or an anomaly in the supply system.

I sure would like to see some butts fried over this though!

NCbob

Many of the confusion about gas & diesel prices and where crude oil come from and whoever.

Primer on Gasoline Sources and Markets:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/contactexperts.htm

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/cli.html

BTW...please read all of it...because the price of ink is getting too serious.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

Now I've been lied to before..hell I've been married 3 times...

NCbob, you bust me up ::)

NCBob,

Me too. Bro knut, me too.

Cody,

I'm sure you said that with all due respect.  Me too.  But I am not exactly sure that bringing in an expert, and an academic at that, is fair play.  It is what I would do and have done, however.  Good work.

Kt,

I inflicted those regs on corps and businesses as a gummint guy.  After you dealt with the bidness world and had enuf briefings on lessons learned from a procurement disaster and yourself dealt on a daily bases with corrupt people you started to feel like a gladiator and a champion and seriously unappreciated.  And yes, often like you had a target pasted on your back.  There were outfits that I would have crawled in broken glass or laid down in traffic for if they needed my support....they did and i took the bullet.  I never saw a reg I didn't like nor one that I couldn't see the wisdom in as far as protecting the gummint and my sailors.  And there was never a contract let that the guy that bid on and took the contract did not clearly understand what he was making, what specs applied, how he would make it and when it was due to be delivered.  That has never happened in the US of A.  Never mind though that those people begin wining and whimpering and frothing about how wrong it is, how much it is costing them, how stupid it all is and how inept the gummint is.  I have told people I am sick to death and I will not listen to any more of "this crap".  You signed the contract that you read and you knew what the profit margins were when you bid.  Live with it!  Now these are the same people that will tel you that people don't deserve charity cause "those people knew about the weather when they moved there."

Your right, Cody, it is beat to death.  The oil prices can't be blamed on gummint inefficiency, nor on peoples stupidity but only on the guy that selects the price.

oh well,

John

Gerald,

I visited the first site you listed.  I noticed something strange about the address.  The doe was in lower cases and "gov" was the third name in the agency title.  I am used to seeing this in descending order from the gummint.  Such as us gummint, DOE, dept X, doc # 10, etc.  That site doesn't follow that outline and it really does not say it is a Fed. Agency anywhere. 

Also I clicked on the second address and it came up an abbreviated list of sub sites.  Clicking on the first site my hard drive went nuts with activity and my connectivity showed a constant stream of outgoing data for a few minutes and the site never came up but I got no error codes from Windows.  How rare of Windows, huh?  I fear that the site is a ruse, it is infected at the site or you passed on an infection from your site.  Just a heads up... only my Wizard can tell for sure.

Thanks,

John

Gerald,

Wifey pointed out to me that the site says that the information presented is "from" the us government.  It doesn't say the site is an official US Government site.  doe is never defined as the Department of Energy anywhere i noticed.  It strikes me as odd that a site would go so far to hide who they are from me.  I would seriously suggest that you revisit the authenticity of this info source and wether it is infected.  If my hard drive stays in this level of activity it will be worn out by morning.....we'll see.  Only you can modify your post and delete those references till you can verify.

Good luck to you and us on this.

thanks,

John

John,
     Maybe you should disconnect from the web until you know what's happening.

Quote from: cody on September 13, 2008, 03:04:46 PM
And at what point does a loaf of bread bring 20 dollars or 30 dollars is their any limit where the price becomes obscene? I have very little sympathy for the station that suddenly feels it's justified to charge any price it wants, I won't buy football tickets from scalpers either.

What I suppose you prefer the PACKERS over the Red Skins? And hear I thought you wasn't preduiced! And by the way what do the AMERICAN INDIANS have to do with this price gouging thing? They never burned oil! Not even in their peace pipes!
;D  BK  ;D


































ROFLMAO! ;D

What we don't need is the government stepping in to fix prices where they are to prevent them from going up.  Essentially what will happen is that they will prevent them from going down where they surely will go if this economic disaster continues at the present rate!  Let's just let the free enterprise system take care of oil the same way it takes care of all the rest.  The oil bubble shows signs of popping, and the Arabs should be right at the front of lowering oil prices to stay in business and not let these green critters get too far into fans and solar, or fuel cells or whatever before yanking their chains and keeping them long term customers of cheap oil.  Everbody except consumers made money on the oil bubble, and now it is time to get back down to earth and keep the sheeple buying cheap oil that has worked ever since people began driving from point A to point B.  You understand that there are a lot of oil people who don't want the Arabs to provide cheap oil.  These oil people have invested tons of money trying to get around the EPA and squeezing oil out of rocks!  If the Arabs pull the carpet out from under them, well, they just have to close. 

Bill T.

JohnEd....Like always I only try to search the where's, the how's and the why's about what is going on with the so called facts and the hear say. Many times the true original facts are impossible to pin point or to point blank. However, I do know this; we need to be total independent from some of middle man products.

Our transportations fuel and home energy is our biggest slice of our hard earn dollar. This can be totally independent from the middle man product.

The following and previous posted links are only database bank of USA information service.

FedStats....very interesting database bank of USA & states & counties numbers
http://www.fedstats.gov/
About FedStats
http://www.fedstats.gov/aboutfedstats.html

About EIA
http://www.fedstats.gov/key_stats/index.php?id=EIA
Collects and disseminates information on energy reserves, production, consumption, distribution, prices, technology, and related international, economic, and financial matters. EIA's programs include data on coal, petroleum, natural gas, and electric and nuclear energy. EIA maintains a comprehensive energy database, disseminates energy data and analyses for a wide variety of customers in the public and private sectors, maintains the National Energy Modeling System for mid-term energy markets analysis and forecasting, maintains the Short-Term Integrated Forecasting System for near-term energy market analysis and forecasting, conducts customer forums and surveys to maintain an up-to-date product and service mix, and maintains systems supporting the electronic dissemination of energy data.

I don't agree the global warming because it had been proving false as per 31000 scientists in the lists. However, I do believe in clean air act for the large cities to stop smog. And keeping the reforest program going for conservation practice.

About the following link....Here one of the main reasons to that our taxes going into the loop hole. Like every one dollar into global warming program will take another 10 dollar into the wasted fund department. And most don't know where it went and why. He, $$$$$$ Congressman John D. Dingell also comments about EIA program...read on:
Statement of Congressman John D. Dingell, Chairman
Committee on Energy and Commerce
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_110/110st148.shtml

About government.... ;D The less government the better!  ;D  The poor working people can get richer! ;D

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

I meant no disrespect towards any person, I only find fault with the concept of price manipulation based on an unfortunate chain of events. regardless of how it sounds I'm not in favor of extensive regulation however we do have the laws on the books right now to deal with the ones that gouge the public.  I don't claim to be any kind of an expert in the field but I had been at one time accused of being a professional student, my dad used to say that there I am with 3 degrees and where am I?,,,,in prison lol.

Quote from: cody on September 15, 2008, 08:14:11 AM
I meant no disrespect towards any person, I only find fault with the concept of price manipulation based on an unfortunate chain of events. regardless of how it sounds I'm not in favor of extensive regulation however we do have the laws on the books right now to deal with the ones that gouge the public.  I don't claim to be any kind of an expert in the field but I had been at one time accused of being a professional student

Ditto!

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

The idea is to strive for balance.  To think that the government should always be involved in everything is ridiculous, but the opposite, that the market should be absolutely untouched is equally foolish.  The "laissez faire" system, as it was known has probably been long abandoned most everywhere in the world, except for China, due to the tremendous abuses.  It took an act of Congress to even standardize steel specs in the US.  Does anyone contend it was better with non-standard steel?  Is there anyone here that prefers a non-FDIC bank for their money.  If so, there are some in the Bahamas you could use.  You might want to look through Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle to get an idea of what the meat industry was like before regulation.  Teddy Roosevelt had to stop eating meat for a while after reading the book.  Wouldn't you just love a society that had no regulation on pharmaceuticals?  We all benefit from regulation because we can not trust our fellow citizens to due the right thing.  Can things be over-regulated?  Sure!  I remember once reading about a burlesque house that was forced to add wheelchair stage access in case they had a paraplegic stripper!  Come to think of it, I bet there are people that would go for that.  Balance is the key.

The problem with that theory being:  Once you let the camel put his nose in the tent, how do you control him?  Politicians being what they are (almost universally), they always seek to expand their power and prevent any loss of their power.

Two quotes to consider:

"When people fear the government, there is tyranny.  When the government fears the people, there is freedom"  -- Thomas Jefferson

"History has tried hard to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians. Now, to go and stick one at the very head of the government couldn't be wise." -- Mark Twain

Another point to concider is that there are laws in place to control the price gouging that is being done by a select few. For an attorney general to have the courage to use the existing laws to correct a problem wouldn't involve anymore regulation than we already have.   One arguement that seems to keep coming up is the fear of additional regulation, no additional regulation would be needed in this situation, just the courage to enforce the laws that already sit on the books.

Cody,

Very much agree with you.

Belfert,

In WW2 we had price controls and rationing.  That all worked out well for the country.  Steele and auto and oil and all the rest were not destroyed by this practice.  On the contrary, they prospered.  In that time of national need patriots weren't such a rare breed.  If you had a commodity that was needed and you tripled the price because you might not have any in a few weeks the gen public would have lynched you.  A war profiteer was a very low form of life and had a min lifespan.  I think it would be in keeping with out history if the oil companies were told to "make fuel available at the current price plus shipping adjustment".  The people fleeing that hurry cane were in pretty bad shape and didn't need someone picking over their bones because of some missplaced concern for bidness profits.  That comes out harsh but I wouldn't take a tone with you.  Chalk it up to poor lit abilities on my part.   There is little we can't do if we put our collective shoulder into it.  It is the liberals that want the system altered that are always carping about the gummint not being able to achieve a single thing.  Today's world would look nothing like it does if we had listened to Jefferson on his point "when the gummint fears the people we have freedom".  The French politicians FEAR the general voting French public and a lot of the power brokers fear the French model catching on over here.  They are so desperately in need of that that bashing the French has become a national passtime here.  I agree that there is a lot wrong with our Gummint but that is because of who has been selected to run the nation and by whom.  That is why so many educated people have said that the root of our problems could be resolved with campaign finance reform.  I think a whole pile of prosecutions would set the record straighter and give many of us a faith in the "system' that the Abramhof scandal has started.  Watch for the pardons, now.

Recent news comes from Oregon Sen Ron Wyden.  He has been holding news conferences on the gov dept that monitors and charges oil companies for oil removed from public lands.  The creeps were partying with the BIG oil types and taking gifts and you know the drill.  Sen Wyden says that prelim reports indicate that the BIG oil folks are in arrears to the tune of billions upon billions.  I don't know how long that has been going on but someone should face a firing squad after turning states evidence and being Lucky enuf to get an understanding prosecuter that let his wife and kids off without being shot but still doing a bunch of hard time.  After the "fair and balanced" trial.  None of that Ken Lay crap where all the investigation stops when the perp with the bad heart gets on a treadmill and races himself to a heart attack at 6000 feet.  His wife kept the 600 million and that was that.  Justice? Storm the Bastille.

Great news about you career in education as a student.  I took my last class when I was 44.  I didn't go full time but I took a few classes a year when bidness workload permitted.  It was my great pleasure and I am sure yours as well.  Gerald is also a member of this club, I take it.  A while back he was begging off because he was only semiliterate...in his words.  He reminds me of those engineers that would say " Gee, four years ago I couldn't even spell engineer and now I are one".  He keeps slipping his facade, though.  Like the southern engineers i knew that reveled in putting on airs of corn pone with words like "ruin't" and such.

I still luv ya,

John

Sherman Texas, WalMart $3.77 on September 11th.

Same place on September 14th, $3.89.

Ike hit the area on September 13th.

I did expect to pay much more after Ike, I was pleasantly surprised. Not cheap mind you, just thankful.

;)

FWIW,

Paul

I guess my point on "greed" and "price gouging" is that they inherently depend on personal OPINION.  And personal opinion has no place in our criminal justice system.

If Joe's Gas Station wants to raise his price on gas to $10/gal. tomorrow, it is up to the owner of that station.  If you don't like it because you think he is a greedy SOB, don't buy from him now or in the future.  If your opinion is shared by enough people, Joe goes out of business.  Very simple law of action/consequences.  If enough people are willing to pay $10/gal. for Joe's business to survive, then Joe's price must not be too high.

But to make it a criminal matter is another thing altogether.  If you start letting the law be subject to personal opinion, where does it stop?  Have you read some of the nutty opinions Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid have about what should and shouldn't be allowed in this country?

In the case of rationing, etc. during WW2, it was a time of war.  Under a declaration of war, there are many points of the law which can be set aside, because the needs of the country supersede.  There are solutions that can have a good impact in the short term which wouldn't work over a longer period of time.  In the case of WW2 (and WW1), complete socialism was practiced in many sectors of the economy.  And the business owners agreed (more or less) because they understood the importance and were willing to lose some of their profits to help the country in a time of crisis.  And unfortunately, many of them ended up bankrupt after the war.  Many industries were spared long term consequences because we happened to move from the war into the Industrial Revolution.  In fact, had those restrictions remained in place, the Industrial Revolution would have looked far different.  It was driven by those "greedy" industrialists, who, in some cases, crossed the line into criminal behavior.

In my opinion, the price jump on fuel last week was largely premature, and, in some cases, excessive.  So, there are some fuel stations that will not see my business in the future, most of which I didn't frequent anyway.  We also temporarily limited the use of my wife's car because it is nearly out of gas and I didn't want to fill it at those prices.  But to translate my personal dislike of a price change into criminal behavior is another thing altogether.

If Joe happens to own the last gas station before the bridge out of town and raises his price to $10.00 after an evacuation order, then he should simply be shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging    here is your definition of price gouging and it is not only illegal in most states, there are also federal statutes that define it and make it illegal.  So it would not require additional regulations only enforcement of existing ones.  To put it simply it is a felony to increase the price of a neccessary commodity by more than 10% during a civil emergency over what it was before the emergency, a civil emergency can be described but not limited to a natural disaster. It would be pointless for me to advance a side of a discussion without having the documentation to support it tho many seem to do just that.  At this point 29 states have price gouging law, and have  been a criminal offense for many years, other states fall back on the federal statutes in this regard.  As you can see, there is no need to make it illegal, it already is.

I understand wanting to keep the camel's nose out of the tent, but is it alright to let the camel toe in the tent?

So there you have it, it's already the law.  And as we know from our country's history, the law can't ever be wrong.

So what happens if the cost of the commodity goes up at the wholesale level?  Is the owner just screwed because he can't raise his price?  Or what if, because some of his employees can't get to work because of the disaster, the owner now has to pay employees overtime wages, or he has to go out and buy a generator to provide power, or he has to hire security guards for his facility, or any number of legitimate business expenses that might arise from said disaster?  His costs of operation have now gone up, but he is screwed because he can't raise his prices to cover those expenses.  The profit margin on a gallon of fuel is usually pennies, so a 10% bump isn't squat. 

I have been there, the only employee at a fuel station during a major storm.  I ended up working 48 hours straight (with all of the accompanying overtime) because there was no one available to replace me.  We ended up running generators because the power was out.  We had to hire a security guard (at a significant cost on the spur of the moment) because, without a phone line, the store security system didn't work and, because the roads were iffy, the armored trucks didn't run to pick up the cash.  Because we were a corporate owned store, the corporate headquarters limited, by policy, how much we could bump the price.  So we lost money even though we emptied our fuel tanks before we could get a refill.

For that company, because they had thousands of stores across the country, they could absorb the temporary financial hit on a few stores.  But what about the "mom and pop" station down the road?  And did our customers remember that we took the hit for them during the storm?  Nope...  The company shut the store a couple years later due to "lack of community support."

I would think that wholesalers are subject to the law as well as retailers, thats why there are not only laws in place at the state level but also at the federal level.   There are many sides to the benefits of price controls as well as disadvantages to it, the common idea is that in a natural disaster, nobody wins, however, in many cases a select few enterprising firms do try to win and win big. To me, it's a shame that we have to legislate what should be concidered as being right and wrong, to further compound the problem with national perception, we, without a moments hesitation, will load ships and send them to the other side of the world to help out in any disaster that should strike, but can't seem to figure out what to do when an area gets leveled here in our own country.

Cody,

Thank you for everything you said.

John

Dreamscape,

I read in here that Texas has a way of writing laws to asuage public outrage at corp actions and has passed laws regulating prices of fuel in an emergency.  I don't know anything about this but I do know that when faced with fines and prosecution a corp acts differently than when it is "rfree" of those consequences.  Lots of  Liberatarians down there. too.  Go figure.  They sure pride themselves on their highways and none of them spouted up outside "gummint interference".  Seems conflicted.

"Don't mess with TEXAS"  hmmmmm!

John

I believe that the most common practice on pricing is:

"Whatever the traffic will bear"

Richard

More homework for you yall!

It has the guide line as to thy why's on prices & the fluctuation market: All of the information that in the web are answers to great many questions we have asked.

Gasoline   http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasolinepricesprimer/index.html

Example...Why do gasoline prices fluctuate?  Retail gasoline prices are mainly affected by crude oil prices and the level of gasoline supply relative to demand. Strong and increasing demand for gasoline and other petroleum products in the United States and the rest of the world is exerting intense pressure on available supplies. Even when crude oil prices are stable, gasoline prices fluctuate due to seasonal demand and local retail station competition. Gasoline prices can change rapidly if something disrupts the supply of crude oil or if there are problems at refineries or with delivery pipelines.

Diesel   http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/diesel/index.html

Example.....WHAT ARE THE MAIN FACTORS THAT AFFECT DIESEL PRICES?  Besides excise taxes, the following are the main factors that affect diesel fuel prices:
Cost and supply of crude oil: Crude oil prices are determined by worldwide supply and demand, and over the past few years increasing demand has put intense pressure on available supplies. The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) exerts significant influence on prices by setting an upper production limit on its members who produce about 40 percent of the world's crude oil. OPEC countries have essentially all of the spare production capacity, and possess about two-thirds of the world's estimated crude oil reserves. Prices spike in response to disruptions in the international and domestic supply of crude oil, such as the Arab oil embargo in 1973, the Iran/Iraq war in 1980, the current war in Iraq, unrest in the Niger River delta region of Nigeria, and the hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico in 2005.
Tight refining capacity and international diesel fuel demand: U.S. refineries have been operating at around 90-percent capacity over the last 10 years. Most other countries rely even more heavily on distillates and diesel fuel than does the United States, and refining capacity is tight worldwide. U.S. diesel fuel prices are more and more affected by competing international demand for refined distillates.

:D The Bottom Line is to be free from the middle man fuel and thinks alternative to travel roam nearly free.  :D

Today gas is 4.699 as of Sept 16, 2008 at Holly Hill, SC  :'(

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

Interesting side note that warrants concideration are the effects of knee jerk reactions and the allowable profit motive, an example is where somebody burps in an oil producing country, instantly it's reflected in the price at the pumps by a major increase, the same person takes a Tums and now the stomache is settled, no more burps, this all transpires over a time frame of a few hours, now, how many weeks or even months will it take for the price to return to the pre-burp level.

I saw diesel posted at $3.99 today.  That is the first time I have seen in "under" $4. since it went up.  If it drops another dollar, it will be at the acceptable limit of unreasonable.

By the way, I feel offended that no one was offended by the camel toe remark.

KT,

It would be worthwhile for a person with a heart for your "fellow man" like you to consider, if you haven't already done so, taking on the poor, vilified tobacco companies as clients. They need men of conscience like yourself to protect their right to unbridled greed that you so eloquently pointed out to all of us uneducated folks is good for us. I'm glad that you pointed out that within all corporations is a self regulating, foolproof kind of corporate greed that is indeed, contrary to what our eyes and ears and lungs may say , "good' for us" as well. Whew... for a minute there I actually believed that corporations actually have the capability of group sinful behavior. I guess all the worlds evil must just abide in the individual. I for one am sorry that I didn't realize that I was the reason that oil companies have had the largest profit margins in history. Silly me... what was I thinking?

I'm sure big tobacco needs "unopinionated" fellows like yourself to add to their rank of corporate litigation attorneys to make sure that the government doesn't step in to make them pay what every court they have presented their case to, say that they owe and which to a large extent they still haven't paid

I for one believe that individuals with your blind trust of groups of individuals to "do the right thing" is harming this countries taxpayers every attempt to monitor their business practices and leads to an inability to have anything remotely resembling transparent accountable behavior. Also, the fact that it's acceptable as long as they are not groups of government employees is judgemental and elitist. Do you feel that same way in a car accident when that "government employee' risks his life to save yours? Those firemen in the twin towers were employed by tax dollars does that mean that they were/are part of the problem?
Those government folks put on there socks and shoes just like you do. Although I doubt many of them are wearing the same brand as a litigation attorney with a "not so small" staff.

I for one am mad as hell at your argument, which we have had shoved down our throats by the greedy of this world for too long, to justify ridiculous, selfish and thoughtless behavior.

I am however called by my maker to separate you from the behavior that you embody and condone.

So I apologize in advance for any harm my opinion of your behavior may cause you as a person.

Rick

What in the world was that all about?   :o  Time to start passing out the meds!!   ;)

I sat my butt at the house when the prices skyrocketed around here.  It looks like they are starting to return to their previous levels as the week goes.  All I know is the more the government meddles in the world of economics the worse things get.  As a consumer you wield an enormous amount of power.  That being said, it does not mean you won't have to make tough choices.  Mostly you have to break a habit, you can make it without a lot of things that you think are a necessity, fuel included.  I think what sets fuel apart is people feel it is something they cannot do without.  You can.  I have cut my usage by nearly half in the past year.

Quote from: RickB on September 16, 2008, 04:13:55 PM

I am however called by my maker to separate you from the behavior that you embody and condone.

This civilized approach is also what enables us to have these discussions in here.  We need to ensure that we keep the debates on the philosophy, and not let our strongly held positions turn into personal attacks.  Any personal attacks and I am sure the moderating team will lock down the thread and be less flexible on future philosophical discussions.  I would hate to see that as I enjoy them, as long as they don't turn personal.

RickB - Where did that come from? - Are you mixing religion with politics? You'd be better off mixing Tanqueray and Tonic - This was a fairly reasonable and respectable argument until you popped in - If you want to know the most recent "scientific" evidence concerning smoking and cancer, I would be glad to forward the info to you off board - if not I suggest that you are not "unopinionated" but rather uninformed - Please forgive my candor - FWIW

Hi, any one know the price of tangueray these days I'm ready for a Drink after that,LOL Great disscusion guys

    Van

Alright,alright, I'll go "take my meds".
Because your responses to my reply all point to a personal foul having taken place, I obviously have overstepped my bounds and for that I apologize... I have avoided all the "political" discussions to this point because I have found them to be biased, "know it all",  mean dialogues that were personally offensive and so what do you know, when I respond to one, I do the very thing I have found offensive. So I apologize KT. I also apologize to all you other folks who had to read my angry rambling. I'll do my best to not let it happen again.

Above all it pains me to think it appears to at least one reader  here that I have dipped God into politics. God is not only so undeserving of that, He is also so much greater than that... I should have known better.

Hope that helps...


Rick

Quote from: Len Silva on September 16, 2008, 07:38:16 AM
If Joe happens to own the last gas station before the bridge out of town and raises his price to $10.00 after an evacuation order, then he should simply be shot.

What an open minded & compassionate idea.

What about those that rush out to fill up with gas even tho they know they won't need any for a week (thereby making the local shortage worse)?
What about the incentive (reward) to those that did plan ahead?
What about location, location, location. Should people selling high demand realestate be shot for charging what the market will pay?

There is a difference between this & the football stadium, movie theater, etc that won't allow you to bring food in & then charge high prices. On the way out of town, you had several other stations to choose from. It could be argued that anyone in a possible "evacuation area" that doesn't have 3/4 tank of gas during a storm watch should be punished by having to pay higher prices.




What ever happened to personal responsibility? The storm wasn't a surprise, so why didn't more fill up sooner?
My grandmom said "stupidity comes with a price". There is often a monetary reward for planning ahead.

It's a shame people want to try to legislate morality.


From observing the traffic around here, there is no problem with the price of gas because:
1- no one is carpooling.
2- the roads are still crowded.
3- people are still driving like jack rabbits.
4- if you try to drive at the posted limits you'll get run over.


So, It seems to me that if gas really was "too expensive", you'd see a difference in the commute practices.

BTW, for the record, I'd really like the gas to be cheaper & to be able to go places without thinking of the cost . . . . . But, times, they are a changin'

Wow...

A couple of thoughts:

Quoteoil companies have had the largest profit margins in history

The oil companies did NOT have the largest MARGINS in history.  Please make sure you understand the difference between a.)net/gross and b.)profit/profit margin.  The profit MARGIN did not increase, which is why people are way out of line with the demonization of the oil companies for their profits.  Their margin is the same as it always has been, which, in fact, is well BELOW most reputable publicly-traded companies.  In the company I work for, if the profit margin for a division is consistently that low, the exec for that group is soon looking for a new job, regardless of what the total $$ are.

Quotetaking on the poor, vilified tobacco companies as clients

Now, that's funny...

Three things about the tobacco companies:

1.) The tobacco companies DELIBERATELY concealed the dangers of smoking (that they had discovered from their own research) in order to sell their product. In fact, they touted "health benefits" in their ads.

2.) They manufacture a physically addictive product, which has been proven scientifically.

3.) If you use their product AS IT WAS DESIGNED TO BE USED, it is deadly to user (and others).

This disqualifies them from any sympathy.  However, if someone starts smoking NOW and decides to sue the tobacco companies when he gets cancer 20 years from now, I'm not so sympathetic.  There is no way a person in this country doesn't now know the dangers of smoking.  It is printed on every package.  If one still chooses to smoke, in spite of the warnings....  If I go to the laundry room and decide to drink the bleach, my estate shouldn't be able to sue Clorox.

However, there is a "slippery slope" here as well.  Arguably, drinking too much Coke is bad for you.  Eating too many cheeseburgers from McDonalds is bad for you.  Where do you draw the line between corporate malfeasance and personal responsibility?

Don't get me started on the stupid lawsuits against gun manufacturers...

If Joe got shot, wouldn't it be the free market at work?  It's only government interference that makes it illegal.  It would just show that he was stupid to raise the price too much and had to pay the stupidity tax. 

KT, check your facts closer, your not even in the same ballpark on the profit, or post the stats to back it, also post the source.

Guys Wal-Mart makes as much profit as some of the oil cos and never is anything ever said and they have less than 5% of the investment and EPA rulings have no affect on them

Quote from: cody on September 17, 2008, 09:04:03 AM
KT, check your facts closer, your not even in the same ballpark on the profit, or post the stats to back it, also post the source.

Cody, would you care to support your statement with stats & including your source?

Quote from: luvrbus on September 17, 2008, 09:11:40 AM
Guys Wal-Mart makes as much profit as some of the oil cos and never is anything ever said and they have less than 5% of the investment and EPA rulings have no affect on them

Let's not leave out microsoft. With the way they marketed their 'product', it is easy to associate them with the deciet of big tobacco . . . .

Does anyone know if tangueray and diesel mix?  I think that We would better off talking about the effect of tangueray and camel --------on the average bus nut.  How about a discussion on the wisdom of printing "warning may cause death----" on a ruger 44 magnum.  John

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/02/high_oil.html                                                                                                      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/business/01cnd-exxon.html?em&ex=1202101200&en=575e77c5fd8688b0&ei=5087%0A            http://finance.aol.com/financials/exxon-mobil-corporation/xom/nys/key-ratios                here are some, the last one includes profit margins, both gross and net, I guess 31% is average, right?

Here is a list of profit margins sorted by industry. (downloaded from Yahoo)
You can see where Oil Industry ranks as far as profit margin.

Exxon was somewhere around 10%


Industry                                          Market Cap   Net Profit Margin (mrq)

REIT - Healthcare Facilities                28.51B                45.3
Silver                                          4.32B                27.7
Long Distance Carriers                23.37B                26.5
REIT - Industrial                             46.84B                25.1
Application Software               474.86B                23
Information & Delivery Services   15.01B                22.6
Industrial Metals & Minerals               405.83B                20.4
Cigarettes                            246.33B                20.2
Copper                                          54.61B                19.6
Internet Information Providers   193.71B                19.3
REIT - Retail                             110.41B                18.3
Drug Manufacturers - Major               1041.56B                18.3
Agricultural Chemicals                202.02B                17.3
Shipping                                           42.49B                17
REIT - Office                               19.60B                17
Networking & Communication Devices    157.38B                16.7
Healthcare Information Services       8.39B                16.3
Steel & Iron                              335.23B                16.2
Publishing - Periodicals                   13.54B                16.2
Foreign Regional Banks                 3560.52B   15.4
Beverages - Wineries & Distillers      63.19B                15.2
Technical & System Software      42.23B                14.2
Oil & Gas Equipment & Services      273.75B   13.6
Railroads                                             314.95B   13.5
Oil & Gas Drilling & Exploration       422.06B   12.9
Gas Utilities                                 107.30B   12.9
Beverages - Brewers                  105.97B   12.9
Medical Appliances & Equipment      157.02B   12.7
Semiconductor Equipment & Materials          58.75B   12.6
Insurance Brokers                                  32.49B   12.5
Entertainment - Diversified                    148.14B   12.3
Computer Peripherals                     26.67B   12.3
Regional - Northeast Banks                     71.27B   11.9
Telecom Services - Foreign                   484.01B   11.8

Exxxon/mobile's gross profit margin was 31%, operations profit was 16% and net profits margin was 11%, one interesting note is that exxon's gross earnings for last year was listed at 1.5trillion, the GDP of Canada was 1.43 trillion.

I really don't see where any of this discussion will actually change anything or help anyone, some here feel that the oil companies profits are justified, others dont.  Some don't mind paying whatever it says on the pump, others don't lol.  The main thing is that in november the new president will save us all and life will be good. lol

Right on Cody I have some ocean front property here AZ I am going to sell after Nov.

Cool, how much? can I use a bridge as a down payment? lol

Quote from: cody on September 17, 2008, 10:20:23 AM
The main thing is that in november the new president will save us all and life will be good. lol

Yup, and no matter who wins, there will only be one thing left to say ..........

Quote from: cody on September 17, 2008, 10:20:23 AM
I really don't see where any of this discussion will actually change anything or help anyone, some here feel that the oil companies profits are justified, others dont.  Some don't mind paying whatever it says on the pump, others don't lol.  The main thing is that in november the new president will save us all and life will be good. lol

These discussions are fun.  ;D
It allows us to get to know each other better & have a better understanding of how others think (or in some cases, don't  ;) )

Also is the enlightening insight into the reasoning process of others. Some use logic, others use emotion, still others simply rely on what they read somewhere without trying to comprehend the context.  :o


Yes, these conversations are fun!  8)

Quote from: cody on September 17, 2008, 09:43:34 AM
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/02/high_oil.html                                                                                                      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/business/01cnd-exxon.html?em&ex=1202101200&en=575e77c5fd8688b0&ei=5087%0A            http://finance.aol.com/financials/exxon-mobil-corporation/xom/nys/key-ratios                here are some, the last one includes profit margins, both gross and net, I guess 31% is average, right?

Thanks for the source.
Gross profit means little to the health of the company when taken by itself. It only counts the costs directly related to the product. If the overhead is 0, then gross = net. The more overhead cost you have, the smaller your net profit will be. The bean counters can skew the numbers, but there are some standards they have to comply with thanks to Enron.

Many a company has gone out of business with a positive gross profit due to the negative net profit caused by high overhead (think liability).

I agree completely, it's sad when people don't comprehend numbers or facts, or just rely on what some call facts, but it is enjoyable to discuss a subject.  One thing that happened up here that is kind of an eye opener is that a citgo station was closed by executive order of the states attorney generals office, says pending an administrative hearing, I haven't actually went to see it but apparently it has the notice on the door and yellow tape on the pumps, what I heard is that it jumped to 5.16 over night, from 3.59, looks like they arn't cutting hugo any slack lol. Apparently that happened this morning.

The listed gross profit margin was 31.65%,  operations margin was 16.08% and net profit was 11.32%. the net profit number is actually the most important, that tells what is going on after everything has been paid, by contrast, microsoft had a net profit margin of 9.2% and walmart had 6.1%.  Last year exxon/mobile had earnings of 1.5 trillion, that figured out to more than that of 120 countries.

RickB,

So very sad that you thought you needed to make an apology. :(  Might say more about me than you possibly. ::)  A line from a movie "Mister, if you don't think you are being rude, you must be from New York city". ;D ;D ;D ;)  Yeah, it might have come across a little strong but I for one will gladly tolerate your style and emotion to hear your candid opinion and reasoning.  No poopy on that score.  :P I thank you for those. 8)  Of course, I am biased....I agree with what you said in spirit if not more.  You are a larger man that most to take the action you did to even avoid the possibility being taken as using personal attack in your opinion.  I didn't see it that way if allowance is made for the "flatness" of this medium and all of our modest abilities with the mother tongue.  Mine is surely more modest than others.  Personally, not being able to use profanity has halved my vocabulary and ruin't my "stile".

The Fed can't do a single thing right and should but out.  Hmmmm. Private industry is superior..... Hmmmmmm.   Now about Fannie and Freddie and the hundreds of billions they have absorbed.  AIG Corp for $85 billion in today's paper.  EXXON got a tax break in the billions a couple years ago so I guess we can be thankful that that "gift" has served to hold down fuel costs, especially considering that EXXON needed that break because they were posting record profits at the time and have continued to do so every quarter since.

Been gone a while.  Computer is all checked out and I am not spreadind and virus or spyware stuff.  I especially enjoy all the different opinions on seeming .......

Does anybody know what diesel is selling for in Venezuela?  It was 11 or 17 cents per gallon I read.

Thanks,

John

Cody, don't know where you got your figures, but here are the Net Profit Margin for Microsoft for the last five quarters:

Net Profit Margin    27.1%    30.4%    28.8%    31.2%    22.7%

Here is the link:http://www.hoovers.com/microsoft/--ID__14120,period__Q--/free-co-fin-income.xhtml (http://www.hoovers.com/microsoft/--ID__14120,period__Q--/free-co-fin-income.xhtml)

Looks pretty healthy to me.  I think the federal government should investigate them for "excess" and "gross" profits (tongue-in-cheek).

Looks like about 2.5 to 3 times the Net Profit Margin Exxon makes.

It's called the free enterprise system.

I do appreciate the civil way everyone had handled this somewhat controversial thread.  There are always many opinions on how a subject should be handled, thats why we discuss them, we have the ability to relive history or to create history based on how we interact with others and how we vote.  There is no right way, however, there are many wrong ways to deal with what could be corporate greed or could also be shrewd profit adjustments, depending on your viewpoint or perception, I'm not in favor of shooting Joe for charging 10 bucks a gallon, it's more fun to wound him, nurse him back to health, then wound him again.lol  I stand by my beliefs that it's wrong to profiteer in the wake of a disaster, others see it as free enterprise, the market and history will eventually determine what it is.

Amen ! Cody

We do a better job of debating the issues here then our fearless leaders in Washington.

That is FACT.

The numbers for microsoft came from their own stock prospectus, the same for walmart.  I'm not sure hoovers numbers might not be skewed somewhat seeing as they have a financial interest in promoting and distributing microsofts stocks, hovers database lists microsoft and hundreds of other companies as clients for promotional services. If I were trying to sell a companies product or stock, I'd want to display them in the most positive light too.  Hovers is owned by D&B

A couple of points..... I think the level of civility here is mostly because we already know and respect each from our common interest in buses and also because daddy will ground us if we get out of hand ;D.

As to the financials, it is the job of the accountant to convince the share holders that they are making money and to convince the IRS that they are losing money, using the same numbers.  I don't know how they do that.

Cody, you brought up "Net Profit Margin".  I said I don't know where you got your figures.  I gave you the actual published figures and pointed out that Microsoft makes 2.5 to 3 times Net Profit Margin that Exxon does.  If you calculate the percentage income tax paid it is quite revealing who is paying the higher dollar amount.  

Exxon paid 42.3% tax on their income.

Microsoft paid 25.7% on their income.

How much is enough?

When you compute profit margin percentages you also need to remember the scale of corporate earnings, microsoft had gross earnings of 60.4 billion dollars, exxon had gross earnings of 1.5 trillion dollars. exxons taxable amount of 42.3% was before adjustments of 40billion dollars of tax abatements, thanks to the enron fiasco, comparing billions in earnings to trillions in earnings is somewhat unfair.

Guys, the numbers listed by Hoover's and DB may come from the company, but they are SEC-filed earnings and "forward-looking" statements and may be the single most regulated piece of paper a corporation ever produces, thanks to Enron.  The CEO, CFO, etc. of the company have to sign those statements as legal documents, subject to prison time if they are incorrect.  (Legislation, I believe, supported vigorously by McCain.  Damn, his corporate masters must have been pissed about that!)

Believe me, that legislation is my job security...  My whole job is to make sure that when the exes of my company signs those statements, there is NO margin of error (or as we call it -- a "zero-defect" game).  And you would be amazed at the absurd things we have to validate because if Joe Smith has the wrong level of access on the wrong computer, he might be able to make a change that, somewhere down the chain, might shift one number on that paper just the slightest bit.  

And not only do WE have to verify everything, we then pay hundreds of $$ per hour for an outside firm to come in and verify it all again.  And, heaven forbid they find a mistake, however insignificant.....

Now, if you want irony, there is another compliance spec. that we will soon have to meet.  But this one is industry-based, not a govt. regulation.  You either comply or no-one is allowed to process credit card transactions or data with you (which would bankrupt almost any company that has any contact with credit cards or credit data).  Guess which one is a more effective regulation with less loopholes?

PERIOD ENDING    30-Jun-08    31-Mar-08 31-  Dec-07         30-Sep-07
Total Revenue     138,072,000   116,854,000   116,642,000   102,337,000   
Cost of Revenue   87,099,000    70,206,000      69,391,000   60,206,000   

Gross Profit          50,973,000   46,648,000      47,251,000   42,131,000   

Operating Expenses
Research Develop 
Selling General     25,345,000   22,940,000     23,963,000   21,855,000   
Non Recurring -   -   -   -   
Others                   3,090,000   3,104,000       3,155,000   3,159,000   
 
Total Operating Expenses -   -   -   -   


Operating Income  22,538,000   20,604,000       20,133,000   17,117,000   

   
Earnings ex Int Ta 22,313,000   20,322,000       19,128,000   17,555,000   
Interest Expense        107,000   130,000                128,000   73,000   
Income Before Tax 22,206,000   20,192,000        19,000,000   17,482,000   
Income Tax Exp     10,526,000   9,302,000          8,062,000   7,350,000   
Minority Interest         (225,000) (282,000)           (283,000) (284,000)
 
Net Income Con Ops 11,680,000   10,890,000       11,660,000   9,410,000   

Non-recurring Events
Discontinued Operations -   -   -   -   
Extraordinary Items -   -   -   -   
Effect Of Accounting Changes -   -   -   -   
Other Items -   -   -   -   


Net Income             11,680,000   10,890,000            11,660,000   9,410,000   
Preferred Stock And Other Adjustments -   -   -   -   

Net Income Applica $11,680,000   $10,890,000         $11,660,000   $9,410,000   

you lost me here niles, this balance sheet is who's?

I'm gonna step out on a ledge and be honest here. An hour before I responded harshly and personally to KT I was informed that my aunt had died after a 5 year fight with lung cancer. She was not herself a smoker but everyone in her home was you will have to argue with her doctor as to whether or not that caused her cancer, he seems convinced it was. In 1998 I stopped to help a drunk driver and was hit by another drunk driver as I was administering first aid. My insurance company said that I had left my car and that made me a pedestrian. Neither of the other drivers were insured. 80k in hospital bills, long term health complications and a year and a half with a colsotomy bag later I got up and started a family.  My wife and I bought a modest home in 2002 and we were moving along pretty smoothly, then Countrywide sold our loan to another bank who in turn sold it to another bank and our house payment went from $1800 to $3200 in six months. Every attempt to reach someone, anyone to help us understand what was happening was met with a quote we would hear ad nauseum for the next six months. "Sorry that's not my department". So when It became obvious that we could not continue to make our payments we fpund a buyer for our home that would have paid off our loan and left us with the loss of any equity we had accrued. We were just happy to walk away. Then to our surprise Countrywide came back and said that because were in dispute of our bill and had refused to make a payment for 60 days that they would only accept the appraised value of the house as payment. We told them that when we had last had an appraisal that the market was considerably more positive and that we were willing to a new appraisal based on the current value. They refused. Long story short, they sold our house six months later for 60k less than we had offered them. Well, the good news is a year later wefinally have a "department". We received a letter last week from the president of Countrywide that we belonged to a select group of individuals who had recently had our personal info SS#'s dob etc. sold by an employee to an undisclosed third party.

All that said, maybe that clarifies why some here among us have little belief in the ability of large groups of individuals to "do the right thing". The danger is the ability of large groups to turn individuals into objects. If I become an object to Countrywide or Exxon they are capable of forgetting the fact that I have a heart and a family.
Although it doesn't condone my earlier post maybe it arrives with a bit more perspective.
I apologize that this post has had far more to do with bus owners then the buses we work on incessantly.
There  may be no common ground here between the free enterprisers and the people asking for restraint or in the lack of restraint, oversight.I just think it would be nice to start my constitutional right to pursue freedom in the same zip code with those who have more power or money than me.

Quote from: cody
I do appreciate the civil way everyone had handled this somewhat controversial thread.  There are always many opinions on how a subject should be handled, thats why we discuss them, we have the ability to relive history or to create history based on how we interact with others and how we vote.  There is no right way, however, there are many wrong ways to deal with what could be corporate greed or could also be shrewd profit adjustments, depending on your viewpoint or perception, I'm not in favor of shooting Joe for charging 10 bucks a gallon, it's more fun to wound him, nurse him back to health, then wound him again.lol  I stand by my beliefs that it's wrong to profiteer in the wake of a disaster, others see it as free enterprise, the market and history will eventually determine what it is.

Well I for 1 stayed out of it 'cause ya'll got way over my head! And I don't trust our ladder! LOL! ;D  BK  ;D

Quote from: buddydawg
We do a better job of debating the issues here then our fearless leaders in Washington.

That is FACT.

Yes it is a fact! But then again we ain't fighting for VOTES or BIG BIZ's back pocket $ either!   BK

And what flavor tangueray? Will it clash with my fresh Peach flavored "Phillies"? ;D  BK  ;D

Exxon's - "income statement" not "balance sheet"

showing >>>NO<<< gross earnings of $1.5 trillion

By the way I'm unofficially keeping track of where everyone stands on the issues - so far it's:

McCain/Palin      - 0 votes

Obama/Biden     - 0 votes

Tanqueray/Tonic - 103 votes

From Exxon's official 2007 Annual Report

http://ir.exxonmobil.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=115024&p=irol-reportsAnnual

Possibly sheds some light on some of the controversies.  32% was their "Return on Average Capital Employed".

You know that by the time we get this all figured out, the price of fuel will be back down and we'll be watching the next hurricane develope lol and Joe will be standing by his pump getting ready to adjust the price again. lol

                                     







                                                              >:(

cody if you wont'shoot joe again Move over so I can get a bead on him. Now we can all finish our tangeray,BK got an extra cigar I guess i'm all out.In joes case stupidity can be painful(van 2008) .Aye Oh by the way I'm from NEW YORK And I ain"t rude LOL I pride myself on bein deliberate ,If Joe had a gas staion in bklyn and uped the price for fuel during a strm situation I would first set his turbin ablaze then confiscate his cabby license LOL

       just my 5 dollars worth of fuel

                   VAN

I'd be happy to shoot joe if I was sure he was the target, sometimes it's best to draw a bead on the one thats pulling the strings and not the puppet. lol I'm from michigan and here we figure gun control is using both hands lol.

 Cody,two hands on the gun just goes with out saying but sounds like now you're shooting in all directions ,carefull you don't shoot your self in the foot.LOL

        Lovin LIfe
          VAN

And the Lone Ranger looked over at his trusted friend Tonto and the three shells he had left from the buffalo wallow, surrounded by indians and said, 'looks like this is the end, we're in trouble now', Tonto looked back and said 'who's we, paleface' lol.  Sometimes when your surrounded, you have to shoot in all directions lol.  Hopefully I can keep my feet out of the line of fire.

Perhaps, Cody m'friend, not having grown up in Detroit (the home of the Lone Ranger series) you don't really know the whole story. Tonto actually shot and killed the Lone Ranger (Clayton Moore actually survived the series but Brace Beemer (the original Lone Ranger didn't)..when Tonto found out that Keemo Sabbe meant SOB!

Now, normally I'm pretty much of a joker when I post on the Board but today I heard from a friend who is an Executive of Shell Oil Company in Des Plains, IL and was advised that there WILL  be a shortage of gasoline in the Southeast this fall and winter. I did NOT get any information about Diesel...should I get that I will pass it on.

Most of you who know me should feel confident that I don't start rumors or add to Urban Legends. I only offer what I've stated as food for thought.

NCbob

Wasn't it Chesty Puller who said that being surrounded makes the shooting easier?

So, a little math on Exxon:  

Their SEC filing at the end of 2007 states that there are 8 trillion shares of common stock (plus a million or so)...has been for the last three years.  If they returned $35.6 Billion to their investors, that "excessive" profit was less than $3 per share.  Now, according to their current stock reporting, 52% of their stock is held by institutional and mutual funds.  That's grandma's pension fund and Uncle Joe's retirement.  All of the insiders (officers of the company), and all of the individual major holders COMBINED hold less than 1% of the stock.  The largest individual holder holds less that 1 million shares.  

So, when we talk about taxing that "excessive" profit, for the most part, we are talking about that $3/share for the 100 shares of Exxon my grandma has in her pension fund.  And that is on top of whatever income tax she would normally pay on that as well.  Since when is my grandma boosting her pension fund by $300 "excessive"???

KT, not sure if you've noticed or not, but I picked up my toys and went home, I found out that I could not compete with your superior knowledge or your ability to make up facts as you go.

Quote from: NCbob on September 18, 2008, 01:37:03 PM

Now, normally I'm pretty much of a joker when I post on the Board but today I heard from a friend who is an Executive of Shell Oil Company in Des Plains, IL and was advised that there WILL  be a shortage of gasoline in the Southeast this fall and winter. I did NOT get any information about Diesel...should I get that I will pass it on.

Most of you who know me should feel confident that I don't start rumors or add to Urban Legends. I only offer what I've stated as food for thought.

NCbob

It is interesting that here in Chattanooga, the price of gasoline and diesel are almost equal for the first time in 2 years or more.  This happened when gasoline spiked due to Ike.  Prior to that diesel was a 60¢ to 80¢ per gallon higher.  What will be interesting is what happens to the gas/diesel price ratio after the Texas gulf coast refineries are back up and running.

Quote from: ktmossman on September 18, 2008, 01:46:57 PM
Wasn't it Chesty Puller who said that being surrounded makes the shooting easier?

So, a little math on Exxon:  

Their SEC filing at the end of 2007 states that there are 8 trillion shares of common stock (plus a million or so)...has been for the last three years.  If they returned $35.6 Billion to their investors, that "excessive" profit was less than $3 per share.  Now, according to their current stock reporting, 52% of their stock is held by institutional and mutual funds.  That's grandma's pension fund and Uncle Joe's retirement.  All of the insiders (officers of the company), and all of the individual major holders COMBINED hold less than 1% of the stock.  The largest individual holder holds less that 1 million shares.  

So, when we talk about taxing that "excessive" profit, for the most part, we are talking about that $3/share for the 100 shares of Exxon my grandma has in her pension fund.  And that is on top of whatever income tax she would normally pay on that as well.  Since when is my grandma boosting her pension fund by $300 "excessive"???

Oops...got my math backwards.  That's only 5 cents per share...WOW...excessive.

cody...now that's no fun...you are starting to sound like Obama ("they're making it up as they go", which is odd considering that he is the one trying to invent "experience" that makes him qualified).  It's just all that pesky data lying around that proves otherwise.  But, as I have said before, no point in letting facts get in the way of a good theory...

well we just had a dorect hurricane hit here in Texas, I now have a much higher opinion of the folks in texas, ( as for gas prices they let em know right away not to try it here, the fines are severe for any gouging and ive seen none, so john ed i guess this is a violation of free enterprise huh???? i also had bus nuts offering assistance that i dont even really know. i am very appreciative
Frank Allen

Just got back from the Eastern Shore of Virginia.  Topped off the tank with diesel in Appomatox, VA.  $4.09.9 per gal.  Saw it cheaper two places, but had nearly a full tank.  The lowest was $3.72.9 per gal.  No shortages of diesel as far as I could tell, but spot shortages of gasoline (as in "no gas") at several stations.  Had a smooth trip, typical glitches; battery charter, flourescent lights.  8v71 purred like a kitten.  Marilyn and I spent two weeks at Cherrystone Camp Ground.  Beautiful sunsets every evening, pictures later.  I recommend it!  Light traffic on four lane divided highway if you travel US 460 from the Roanoke area. We had planned to go to D.C. after that, but we were ready to come home.  Seems that it took the first week to START to unwind.

Dennis