Checked batterys I have 25.6 volts on start batteries. I used driver start button, starter clunked?? but did not turn, no noises, no spinning sounds. released button and tried again instant start. i checked voltage of start batteries befor alternator engaged. They showed 24.7 volts, Would a .9 volt drop be acceptable? Can not seem to locate this info on the internet. Jim
Jim,
I would say you have weak bats and a defective starter solenoid/armature. Time for the ole hydrometer. How old are each of those components? This is one of those rare cases where "size doesn't matter"...really! They are all basically the same and it in your technique of rebuilding and practice, practice, practice makes purrfecto. ;) ;D Take you armature into a shop and ask them to put it on a Growler for you....you can clean the thing yourself with sand paper(not emery).
That and : Col. Mustard in the den with the knife ;D
John
I'd also suspect a corroded connection somewhere! The coach we just bought does the same thing! I've been so busy fix'n more important stuff and making trips all over the country buying other stuff, haven't had time to fix it yet! Besides until it leaves a driver stranded somewhere with a load on it's no big deal right (just kid'n it really is on the TO DO LIST, just gotta find someone to do it! LOL!) ;D BK ;D
Thanks,, as usual the bus Gods are smileing on me> I am sitting in a Executive Class A Motorhome Resort and Spa ;D and not on the side of the road somewhere, the rent is paid for a month. So I have plenty of time to muddle through this.
The starter/selonoid was rebuilt 60K miles and 10 years ago, so are suspect. The start batteries are a few months old, I dont trust these batteries, I have taken them back twice since new and they pass a load test but they do not hold a charge like the old ones did. These are 2 group 31 like the old ones, but seem weak. I will pull them one more time and have them tested. Also it seems after this much time it would pay to have the starter PM'd
I finnaly thought to check the house batteries, Voltage was low, I added water and am chargeing now. I am not sure on the sequence I will follow but hope to do one thing at a time to isolate problem.
Maybe Chaz and I could have a two for one sale??
Thanks again Jim
QuoteTime for the ole hydrometer.
If you don't have one of these you need one ASAP. They are not all that expensive. It will tell you more about your batteries than anything. If you can, get a refractometer, it is the ultimate cool tool for testing batteries and antifreeze.
Discussed here one time:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=6895.0
I think your batteries are fine. You need to clean every connection you have from the batteries to the starter, then locate every ground you have and clean them all (Not just tighten but take them apart and clean to bare metal). This needs to be done no matter what component you have that might be bad. That will eliminate the possibility of a very common gremlin if you do. Not to mention that it is also part of a good preventive maintenance plan.
I have a hydrometer. But the start batteries are maintanence free sealed type!!!!
Quote from: jjrbus on August 07, 2008, 10:28:51 AM
Checked batterys I have 25.6 volts on start batteries. I used driver start button, starter clunked?? but did not turn, no noises, no spinning sounds. released button and tried again instant start. i checked voltage of start batteries befor alternator engaged. They showed 24.7 volts, Would a .9 volt drop be acceptable? Can not seem to locate this info on the internet. Jim
Jim....Yes, it
always drop about 1 volt once after been charge with a charger, to remove "float" voltage via load (on & off) and then read lower then first read....the voltage report is normal and very good.
Now here the important part:
1) What was the voltage while it went "clunk" at the
starter + post? _______ If it near battery voltage....brushes hanging up or worn. If none....solenoid contact is worn.
2) What was the voltage while it cranking with no fuel at the
starter + post? _______ Should be at least 18 volts
3) After done both above test, recheck
battery + voltage_______ It should be at least 24 voltage if the battery was fully charge before the test.
Post the resuilts if you will...Thank you.
I wish I was there to help.
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
PS...we will talk about why your battery is weaker than other Gr31 after this reports.
Jim, still sounds like you have a starter issue, but maintenance free batteries can be a huge headache. Your voltage readings are WNL.
FWIW, if using maintenance free batteries in place of 'real' batteries, problems with charge profile can cause problems for the maintenance free batteries.
If you're charging maintenance-free batteries and lead acid batteries from the same alternator/regulator, the maintenance free batteries may be overcharged and possibly damaged.
Others may disagree. No problem. Not really. ;)
My experience with batteries is that I've had to replace about 2 to 1 maintenance free to lead acid for failures. Most failures are related to either the higher self-discharge rate of maintenance free when not used, or improper servicing when initially serviced new.
High quality AGM batteries are good items, but they have an approved charging profile, that if violated, will screw up the batteries pronto.
Maintenance free batteries soak up the electrolyte and the battery will look dry...if one gets the caps off. These batteries should never have water added to them.
JR
Jim,
I would first check clean all connections, sitting in all this Florida humidity can easily cause corrosion on a conection(s). Besides,this is the cheapest repair LOL. The first attempt to start causes enough heat in the poor connection(s) to improve the connection(s), the second attempt gets enough power through the poor connection(s) to operate the starter.
Another component I just thought of is the pressure switch on the secondary fuel filter. This switch completes the ground from the starter relay or solenoid (I don't remember which). Anyway, when this switch failed on our bus we had similar symptoms. To rule out this switch as the problem, simply put a jumper between the 2 terminals on the switch. Jack
I had something similar happen...... it turned out to be a loose battery cable. I called myself cinching those puppies down real tight the first time, but somehow one came loose.
Tightened it back up and problem vanished.
All are good trouble shooting and repair suggestions. One point I'd like to make is that I would not be without my heavy duty 300 amp commercial charger/booster. Hook it directly to the starter if you have, it get you back on the road (assuming you have ac power available).
What i do is a once a yr go over , beginning at the batteries i clean every conection shiney from the batt to the termination, i learnes this early on, the ground conection on the rear bulkhead was just a little dirty and all i got was a click, after the cleaning she took right off. Thats always my first thing to do. i also do a hydrameter check and a load check. these pretty much tell the story. Takes a long time to fully charge these batteries as they are so big.
Frank Allen
And one other thng that I don't see mentioned is that some coaches will do this, even if the whole starter system is in good shape. There is a sentence in our 4106 operator's manual that describes this. I did not find it in the service manual.
It says something like "If you press the starter button and the engine does not crank, simply release the button and press it again". I was very puzzled by this, and after we had some starter problems, I learned that the starter drive will occaisionally butt up against a flywheel tooth without engaging it.
If the starter has been assembled and adjusted correctly, the failure to engage will also prevent the main power contacts in the solenoid from powering up the starter motor. This prevents the destruction of the starter drive gear and the flywheel ring gear. The key adjustment is the starter drive gear to end bell clearance, around 1/8", if IIRC.
Since the solenoid pull-in current is passed though the starter motor, the motor turns a bit with each attempt to pull the drive into engagement. So, releasing the button and pressing it again causes the drive to line up the teeth. When the drive engages, the main contacts make, and the motor turns over.
While this setup may apply to our 12 volt coach, I don't really know if it applies to yours, but i can't think of a good reason it shouldn't. And I'm not trying to discourage you from maintaining your coach. But, I think that you could spend quite a bit of time chasing a non-problem, if you didn't really have anything wrong.
I hope you find this useful.
Tom Caffrey
I have been puttering with this and found a corroded terminal on the fule pressure swith. I managed to destroy it while trying to fix it. So am now sidelined waiting for a new switch.
In the meantime as I pulled terminals to clean, i figured as long as I have it apart I might as well take the batteries back to be load tested for the third time. Of course one battery showed recharge and retest. I refused the recharge as this battery showed full voltage this morning. I'm not 100% sure I did the right thing, but I have been unhappy with these batteries since new.
Will putter with it again soon, I may jury rig the switch and see if I still have a starting problem.
Thanks for all the help Jim
Quote from: jjrbus on August 14, 2008, 05:04:45 PM
I have been puttering with this and found a corroded terminal on the fule pressure swith. I managed to destroy it while trying to fix it. So am now sidelined waiting for a new switch.
In the meantime as I pulled terminals to clean, i figured as long as I have it apart I might as well take the batteries back to be load tested for the third time. Of course one battery showed recharge and retest. I refused the recharge as this battery showed full voltage this morning. I'm not 100% sure I did the right thing, but I have been unhappy with these batteries since new.
Will putter with it again soon, I may jury rig the switch and see if I still have a starting problem.
Thanks for all the help Jim
The fuel pressure switch shouldn't sideline you at all. Just connect the two leads together. It's function AFAIK is only to prevent the starter from engaging when the engine is running. Just be careful until you can get it replaced.
Do you know how to read the mfg. date code on the batteries. Before I did, I purchased some sealed batteries from a major retailer. I had nothing but problems with them and after 2 years went to a battery specilizity store. I found out they were 4 years old when I purchased them. A thru L is the month code and 08,07, 99 & etc are the year of mfg. many times a round white sticker on the side. I am not talking about the date code they punch out when the battery is put in service for warranty purposes.
I also agree the refracometer is a great tool for battery state of charge. will not work on the sealed batteries.
I reciently replaced field coils on a starter that would not start when the engine was hot. When cold it started every time. That cured my problem. Previously I replaced all cables, cleaned all contact points, and used star washers. The field coil in my system was the absolute last thing left for me to try. Everything else was new.
Quote from: jjrbus on August 14, 2008, 05:04:45 PM
Will putter with it again soon, I may jury rig the switch and see if I still have a starting problem.
Thanks for all the help Jim
Jim,
If your fuel switch is wired like our MC-8, all the switch does is complete the circuit to ground until you have fuel pressure. Simply grounding the wire coming from the starter relay. Connecting the 2 wires that were on the switch will work, as long as the wire going to the frame has a good ground connection. If the bus starts normally, you found your problem. Jack
8 and 5 must be different there is only one wire on it! I doubt that this was the problem. It was corroded and I decided to clean it, shuda left it alone. On the birght side a new one is onl $31 and a week away. Jim
Jim,
It is probably grounded through the switch. Check the wiring schematic. With the wire disconnected, try the starter-should get absolutely nothing (no click, nada). Then connect the wire to a good ground, try the starter-engine should spin over. If not you have another problem. Jack
Thank you very much for all your tolerence, input and suggestions. It appears on the surface to be a battery. These batteries (2 group 31"s) were originally purchased new 11/07 taken back twice for load tests and one was replace 04/08, I took them yesterday for the third load test, the newer battery showed recharge and retest which I refused, they replaced it under warrenty.
I reinstalled the batteries today touched the button and it fired right up like it normally does!! Hopefully this is the end of it.
Many thanks Jim
Replaced batterie and busfires right up!!!! problem solved!! Try it next day and if fizzles, selonoid just whirrrrs! Push button again, it starts. No sense trying to go any farther everything is warm. Get out the analog tester today, hook up, push button and it fires instantly, go figure??
I really hate intermittent problems.
Sounds like a loose wire or a bad ground someplace.
I dunno.
FWIW,
Paul
Quote from: Dreamscape on August 17, 2008, 02:34:02 PM
Sounds like a loose wire or a bad ground someplace.
Paul
or a corroded contact in a relay/switch,solenoid. Jack.
PS: any difference when using front or rear start switch?
No difference in front and rear switch. Does seem like dirty, corroded, loose contact somewhere. I do not belive that Jerrys diagnostics will work well with intermitent problem? Plus can only do one connection at a time as once heated it is no longer a bad connection?
I am thinking (oh oh) of takeing starter in for PM. That would leave only relay or bad connection/wire to trace down.
Jim
Quote from: jjrbus on August 17, 2008, 03:51:09 PM
No difference in front and rear switch. Jim
That pretty well narrows it down to the starter relay, starter solenoid, fuel pressure switch, and the wires/connectors between these. Bring you wiring schematic with you tomorrow when ya'll come up for supper. Jack
I am @$# u me ing that becuse the starter is attempting to start, ie the bendix is wrinnnninnnnn spinning. That the fuel pressure switch is good ???
I agree with Jack, if both starter switches give the same results that eliminates them and the wiring to the starter relay.
I still suspect the relay since it seems to give the most trouble. Next time you try to start it and it fails try jumping around the start relay. Of course this may prove nothing but the relay can be checked with a voltmeter after disconnecting the relay from the starter solenoid. With the voltmeter connected to the solenoid wire connection on the start relay have someone hit a start switch a number of times since it is intermittent.
If the voltage is full and constant each time this probably narrows it down to the wiring to the solenoid, the solenoid or the starter.
I woudn't remove the starter until you have isolated the problem definitely to it. It is a heavy, messy job and you will hate yourself if it is ok.
I got an idea. Attach a push button switch between a B+ source and the "S" terminal on the engine starter solenoid. Use enough wire to locate the switch in a convenient place to access.
Turn on the ignition, go the the switch and start the bus. If it continues to start with the "remote" starter button, the problem is in the chassis wiring or slave solenoid (not the starter solenoid), if it 'fizzles' after a couple of starts, the problem is either the starter battery leads, dedicated starter ground, or the starter solenoid, or starter motor.
You could rule out all of the secondary wiring and relays this way.
Auto stores may still sell remote starter buttons. They were common some years ago for turning engines over. Had a push button and two alligator clips with about 4' of wires.
The "S" terminal on the starter solenoid is the small terminal.
JR
Spinning Jim....Did you keep the fuel injector in "off" mode while crank testing? If not, you will not get the information you needed because if it starts before the testing result can be attained. This has been mention in the following link: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=9118.0
Cranking without starting will give you all the electrical starting and battery wiring under the worst strain load to show where the problem is. Then follow the process of elimination steps.
However, now that you mention the "solenoid (you may mean the starter) just whirrrrs!"...sound like starter spinning but bendix's clutch is bad. That can be an intermitting problem....sometime it spin engine over and other times it doesn't. That diagnostic step "D" of this post: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=9118.0
Try this several cold push button starting with fuel injector in "off" mode and until you hear it whirrs or not cranking the engine.
About bendix drive's clutch. It has a one-way direction clutch so after the engine is started...it keep the starter from over spinning to avoid damaging to starter motor and help disengage freely from flywheel ring gear. They do wear out....or hang-up via clutch disc plate's compound (manual transmission) inside the bendix's clutch to dry its lubricant. If anyone has this problem...dip bendix drive in brake fluid to lube and avoid hang-up. Been there and done that on a fleet of mobile home trailer haulers and eliminate redundancy R&R job.
BTW...not all bad bendix drive will show bad while it removed from engine via hand rotating its bendix's gear to see if it will rotate freely or stiff either way without armature turning.
Hope you find your lovely intermitting problem before it gets you in the greater spinning mode. LOL (I wouldn't like it either)
Jim!!!...call me eight six three six three three eight nine seven nine...please...anytime.
If you will, we can walk and I can hear whatever the whrrrii sound and report whatever the culprit later.
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
PS...I am sorry Jim for you going through this a runaround problem.
Quote from: jjrbus on August 17, 2008, 04:34:21 PM
I am @$# u me ing that because the starter is attempting to start, ie the bendix is wrinnnninnnnn spinning. That the fuel pressure switch is good ???
If the starter is spinning at a "normal" rpm, sounds like the starter. However, I would would thoroughly check everything else before trying to remove the big heavy starter. I am not sure whether reduced power due to a poor connection/contact would allow starter to spin, but not provide enough power to engage bendix. Using a heavy jumper to bypass starter relay is easier and quicker than removing starter. I usually try to "rule out" the easy simple things first, then move on to the more difficult such as removing the starter. Jack
All solenoid/starter combination is lever/linkage design. The only way the starter to energize is by solenoid's contacts. Also solenoid pulls the lever to slide the bendix drive into ring gear. You will never have close circuit until the bendix drive is fully engaged. In other words, no starter will spin or cranking until first bendix drive is engaged before the solenoid's contact is closed to energize starter motor.
Read the "Electric starter"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_self_starter
Read the paragraph "A freewheel assembly......" under "Uses" subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freewheel
Attachment of the cross-section of a Delco solenoid/lever with motor.
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
PS...Hopefully the storm will be a mild one. I will be praying for things to be safe and secured for everyone through this storm.
On following your suggestions and muddleing with this as best I can, I could not find a problem. I pulled the starter and took it to the local shop for further testing.
They hooked up power to the starter and on the first test it made a "clunk" sound and did notheing! This is the second time I have found "the" problem.
A complete rebuild is $260, I told them to go ahead and do It, I can pick it up tomorrow, if the shop is still there after Fay goes through ;D Will keep you posted. Jim
Sounds like a solenoid failure. GM style solenoids get old and that's how they act. Often hitting the button repeatedly will result in starting.
There a big plated washer on the end of the solenoid plunger that closes the battery main to the starter motor when it pulls all the way in. If the washer/contactor is burnt, it'll pull in but the motor may not turn, or the starter may not turn at starting speed.
On the brighter side, if you keep "finding" the "problem", you're gonna get it fixed sooner or later...if it takes every dollar you got! ;)
Good luck, JR
Quote from: jjrbus on August 17, 2008, 04:34:21 PM
I am @$# u me ing that becuse the starter is attempting to start, ie the bendix is wrinnnninnnnn spinning. That the fuel pressure switch is good ???
Mean bad bendix drive.
Quote from: jjrbus on August 18, 2008, 12:02:47 PM
They hooked up power to the starter and on the first test it made a "clunk" sound and did notheing! This is the second time I have found "the" problem.
Mean solenoid's relay contact is worn out to a point partial or no contact.
Usually if one thing is worn out mean the rest of the starter/solenoid needs to be completely rebuild.
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
This is off topic, but, ...
ROAD SIDE FIX...
Turn the washer in the solenoid around... it will give you a clean slate to start from.
Dallas
I have indeed had the situation on my 4104 where low voltage would allow the starter to spin but not fast enough to engage the Bendix.
I just had my starter gone through, bad solenoid, $119 total price. Could have happened because of low voltage, as my batts were in sad shape. Got the starter repaired, new batts and she fired right up! That is the second time I have done this in 5 years. Them suckers are HEAVY! I need to invest in a battery minder, or whatever you call it. ;D
Hope yours is fixed and ready to make that diesel rumble.
Paul
Jim,
It isn't clear, was the solenoid still on the starter when it was tested? If so the problem still could be the solenoid.
Paul,
I solved the heavy battery problem by going to two Group 31s to replace the monster 8Ds. I only used two but three will easily fit into the one 8D space. I live in a mild climate so I only need two. Cold climates probably call for three or four G31s. This also gave me space for more house batteries, a very nice setup.
Yes solenoid was still on starter. They will probobly reverse copper washer and charge me $260!!! This is Floida ya know.
Well, at least you will have an overhauled starter (Maybe?) that you won't have to worry about for a while!!
Quote from: gus on August 18, 2008, 07:23:48 PM
Jim,
It isn't clear, was the solenoid still on the starter when it was tested? If so the problem still could be the solenoid.
Paul,
I solved the heavy battery problem by going to two Group 31s to replace the monster 8Ds. I only used two but three will easily fit into the one 8D space. I live in a mild climate so I only need two. Cold climates probably call for three or four G31s. This also gave me space for more house batteries, a very nice setup.
Gus,
That is exactly what I did several years ago, replace two dead and tired 8D's with two group 31's. Much easier to handle too!
Paul