1985 Prevost Liberty Coach
Buy it now: US $59,000.00
8V 92 Turbo Detroit Diesel with 450HP. It has an Allison 740 5speed automatic transmission, it also has 3 A/C Units that can be run off the Generator or 110 Elec.It is loaded with every option.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=120289758407
wow!!!! sounds to good to be true, i would definately be carefull,
Laryn,
Better tread lightly. He says it has a 740 5 speed Allison, the 740 is a 4 speed. Looks like a yellow "dealers type" tag on the keys in the dash photo, AND he only has a 50% positive feedback. I think this one would definitely require an in person inspection and test drive prior to bidding. Jack
Hey Laryn,
I'll loan it to ya, but I gotta get it outta the washer and dry it out first. (I hate it when I forget to empty my pocket change before doing laundry! LOL!) ;D BK ;D
OK BK, "You da man!" I need the same as cash no payment till 2020 plan. Not to pressure, but you need to hurry. And since you are being the pal, can you drive it home for me? I'll even let my two Jacks give you a kiss on the mouth. :-*
If I were really buying this coach I wouldn't pay until physical inspection. I read all of his feedback and I am not sure how it is 50%. I wouldn't expect a dealer to know too much about something like a bus so I would try to use that to my advantage. I used to work for a chemical company that sold to auto dealers and I learned that they all are out for #1. As always, it's the buyer's responsibility to do the homework. Looks like it might be a professional conversion to me. Probably a widow sale and she got taken to the cleaners.
15 feedbacks and 50% positive rating.
I would not even bother emailing the guy with feedback like that
Quote from: tekebird on August 02, 2008, 06:30:37 AM
15 feedbacks and 50% positive rating.
I would not even bother emailing the guy with feedback like that
Doug,
Since eBay has changed it's rating method it's become more difficult to assess a sellers ratings based on the number beside the name.
The feedback is now calculated on a 12 month period and doesn't reflect the total number.
This seller has one neutral and one positive in the last 12 months, which to eBay means a 50% rating.
However, I do agree that this one I would want to look at in person and take along Bryce or RJ or Sammy to look it over. The cost of their services and air fare would pay for itself in peace of mind.
Dallas
It's about 60 miles from me, but I'm going to be gone for awhile. If it still available and or sale in 3 weeks, I'd be happy to go check it out for anyone who might be interested. I can probably find out maintenance history information on it, too, as there are not many places where this kind of coach will be serviced in this area.
Too bad this wasn't available when I first started looking. I might be driving it instead.
In one place the info says 40' in another it says 43' I wonder which one is true, aslo does it look to be widened and or raised?
The picture from the inside looks like it is a a lot wider.
Also he mentions that it has 3 ac, are they mounted below in the baggage bay since they are not on the top.
Phil
If everything was good, would that be a good deal, or a great deal?
I have a neighbor who put an unneeded car up for sale. He didn't need the money and just wanted it gone so he big time low balled it. Everyone that looked at it kept asking him what was wrong with it and no matter how much he assured them, no one would buy it. After about a week of this he bought and installed some cheep floor mats and raised the price substantially. He sold it in one day. When I bought my bus I felt that at the time the owner underpriced it. But, I to at times had it in the back of my mind that maybe there was something wrong, and he didn't want to have too bad a conscience. But the truth was he wanted it gone. My point is that sometimes there are good deals to be had. It has been my experience that dealers like to turn things over quick as possible and they are not going to spend a lot of time going over something with a fine tooth comb. They just want to make a few bills and move on. If that bus is a professional conversion and that is truly all the miles on it I would think it is a super deal. If you find the sister to it a month from now and its $20k less then it would only be an OK deal. Therefore, deals are relative. It needs to be looked over, but it very well could be a great find. I challenge someone to show me a Prevost that on-line looks that nice, and for that price, regardless of who is selling it.
As for the discrepancies in the length, we know the seller is not a bus guy so who cares. Use their lack of knowledge of these machines to your favor. On my fathers bus he has low profile A/Cs and they are hard to see unless you sand back far enough. One would find out quick enough during an inspection. I wouldn't have a problem taking a negative on my eBay rating if I showed up and it was misrepresented. EBay ratings don't mean what they used to because of some sellers manipulation, and intimidation, to some buyers. Anyone that eBays now knows what I mean. In fact, the seller would realize quickly that he now has a big problem on his hands, a pissed off buyer that is within arms reach....FWIW
So I went back and looked at the ebay photos. It is a Liberty Coach, so it probably has had an easy life.
BK, my jacks are eagerly awaiting your arrival to give you your free kisses, don't disappoint them. Nothing more sad than two depressed dogs. :'(
I hear ya Laryn, problem is I sorta got that $ tied up at the moment. Also if I went ad picked it up right now, I'd have to go ahead and store it for ya 'til the end of the hurricane season, just incase we needed a bunk house/lounge/mess hall ! LOL! ;D BK ;D
Quote from: Chariotdriver on August 02, 2008, 03:51:15 PM
In one place the info says 40' in another it says 43' I wonder which one is true, aslo does it look to be widened and or raised?
The picture from the inside looks like it is a a lot wider.
Also he mentions that it has 3 ac, are they mounted below in the baggage bay since they are not on the top.
Phil
"It is what it is" ,... but what is it? Do you think that it is a 40 footer by looking at the sides?
Does it look like the ceiling is raised? Does it look like it is 102" wide?
I'm not familiar with them enough to tell by looking at pics to determine the dimensions.
i don't mean to be a spoil sport, but $59k doesn't sound like that great a deal in today's market, if you are looking to unload an unneeded bus and make use of the cash.
No slides, diesel at 6mpg and costs soon to be $8-10/gal in a few years. There are a lot of buses and used RV's on the market right now.
i offered a guy $70k a few years ago for his bus and he got mad at me. he still has the bus. and it sits either rusting or helping him with his hobby of keeping it painted. Bet he wishes he'd swallowed his pride in his work effort and sold it.
my point is that the market conditions might be right for this person and you the buyer. get it inspected? heck yes. But don't think $59k is too good to be true. the ebay rating says be careful, not the price.
my 2 cents, which won't buy that bus, and like BK, my change was in the washer and the maid took it :(.
His description says it all.....ESTATE SALE....He paid around .10 cents on the dollar of what it's really worth. The current bid of 40k he's more than doubled his money. I got my current coach at an estate auction. Easily worth in the 30k range for 3,500 and they auctioned the 15k diesel generator separately.....I had to bid on that too...got it for 250.00 more......
Quote from: Damn Yankee on August 03, 2008, 05:51:52 AM
His description says it all.....ESTATE SALE....He paid around .10 cents on the dollar of what it's really worth. The current bid of 40k he's more than doubled his money. I got my current coach at an estate auction. Easily worth in the 30k range for 3,500 and they auctioned the 15k diesel generator separately.....I had to bid on that too...got it for 250.00 more......
So at 40 K that's probably double what he paid (20k) and 20k is 10% or ".10 cents on the dollar" of 200K
So it is worth 200K!!
I'm headed to MN !!! ;D
I think it's all a sign of the times. A year or so ago this would have brought 100k+, in my opinion, but things just aren't selling. Too many people in Southern states are giving up on the snowbird lifestyle and selling off the gas guzzlers. The more RVs that are available cheap, the more tempted people are to buy those instead of bus conversions, thus the lower the prices of conversions.
I was at Panterra the other day, been there several times and never saw anything but highend conversions in their sales center. Last week there were more S+S there than buses. THe owner said he just can't sell conversions right now. He had a Liberty coach, a 2002 XL2 with marble everywhere, with 2 slides and low miles, sold it for under 300k - a huge difference than a year ago when he sold it to the seller for almost 500k, he does commission sales.
I think that 59k is a fair price for this bus, but the interior is very dated looking (strip mirrors and white leatherette) I would value my investment in the shell, basement goodies, the cruisairs and floor covering. The rest, to bring current would be what I'd subtract from that value and then figure out what it's worth, to me at least.
IMHO
Todd
p.s. nice looking coach though
Not to tick the Prevost guys off but depending where that bus came from it can be a rust bucket and yes Prevost from that era do rust
No you're right, good point.
I've found the rust usually the worst above the rear wheels, which is hard to see, but easy to feel in the floor, at least on seated coaches.
I'm not sure when they switched to stainless only in the frame, anyone know? I know that the entertainer shells kept using steel in the late 90's, even when the seated and rv shells switched to stainless. I'm not familiar enough with these to tell if it was built on an RV shell or entertainer shell??? The dash doesn't look like from an RV shell, leading me to think it was an entertainer shell - pretty common in conversions, saves many thousands on the cost.
So we need a Prevost expert to pipe up here!
Todd
12355478 is the Vin and it is a 1985
Can you tell if it is stainless with this
Information?
I need to know as I'm headed there to
Takes peak at it.
My cell is two two 8-342-0687 if your a Prevost
Expert, or just have good info as what
I should be looking at closely
Thanks
Phil
Phil,
Send us a report on what you find. The only thing I know about Prevost is that they bring more money than the other makes with all things being equal. No offence to everyone else, and don't even bother to try and convince me otherwise, because I have been watching this for too long. There is a reason I drive a GM...LOL
Good luck,
Laryn
Hi Phil,
I doubt that is the VIN, looks like some random numbers they typed in. It should be 17 digits and have a few letters in it too.
If you search the forum I think there are a few references to checklists for inspecting a bus, they're a great start.
I'd recommend at a minimum:
Show up earlier than scheduled, see if he's already running the bus to get it warmed up (bad sign). You'll want to know if you have to ether it, or jump it to get it started. You'll also want to see how long it takes to air up from flat.
Before driving it (you must drive it at least 20-30 minutes), but before that, let it air up, pump the brakes several times and see how fast the air reduces and how long it takes to build back up. Checkout all your lights.
Check every single gauge, make sure they're working and showing good readings.
When driving, make sure you find someplace hilly to drive up and get a feel for the shifting both on level and up hill.
While driving, check your mirrors for excess smoke and color. Remember, it's a V92 engine, it WILL smoke under load.
Check out every function of every device/appliance in the coach. Better to know of problems while negotiating, than later. Try out all the 12v and inverter-devices from battery power only. Then try everything on Generator power, if shore power is available then try that too. Try killing the generator and see if the inverter picks up the 12v devices without fail.
Check those floor tiles out, with the age of the coach, there's quite possibly some grout damage, no big deal, but check to see if tiles are cracked - ask if there are spares with the bus.
Check underneath for rust, take your flashlight and a magnet - to check what's steel and what's stainless.
Last but not least, keep in mind that it's a Prevost. Whatever needs replaced, plan on 4 times what you think it should cost. At least then you'll be half right! :-) Seriously, Prevost buses are like Rolls Royce's when you need to buy parts for them.
Oh, one more thing, ask if there are manuals for the bus and more importantly for the conversion. A good set of conversion wiring diagrams of the conversion is priceless.
Good luck, I have a customer interested in it, but he can't reach the guy.
Todd
Todd you said you have a customer interested in the bus but you can't reach the seller? The auction has a "buy it now"! I'm sure you would get his attention with that! LOL
Ace
I will report back asap
Phil
P.s
Todd would you do some refurb work
On it ?
Is that what you do?
It would appear to me to be well worth the price if there are no problems. It is possible. I had a friend that was a used car dealer. He sold cars based only on what he bought them for or had to put into them. He really never wanted to know more about the vehicle than what jumped out at him. He theory being that he was not responsible for what he did not know. He looked at any repair he would need to do before sale as a loss. Of course, he was basically honest.
I guess I am going to stick with what I already have and don't need. You can go to an appliance store and buy a refrigerator for $300. or $5000. The former will keep your food cold, the latter will also keep your food cold.
Buy it Now, I couldn't let my guy spend all his money there though :-)
With the age, price, stated mileage and such, she is definitely in need of an in-person inspection. You just never know.
Kinda curious though, the guy says he can't communicate via email, one of the numbers he gives goes straight to voicemail, which is full and he doesn't answer the other phone. Oh well, guess he doesn't need to sell it that bad.
Phil, yes I do refurbs, would be glad to help out.
Thanks
Todd
Quotei don't mean to be a spoil sport, but $59k doesn't sound like that great a deal in today's market, if you are looking to unload an unneeded bus and make use of the cash.
That is the lowest BIN I have seen on one of that caliber. It's like the stock market, you never know when it will, or if it has, hit bottom. If you had to buy right now, today from what is out there, I believe this would be it. Six months from now we will have different circumstances by which to judge from that would apply to pricing at that time. My guess would be as good as anyone's as to what that might be. If I waited twenty more years when I become an empty nester, I could have probably got a better deal. I have often stated that owning a bus conversion is a lifestyle choice, and I choose to be on the train now. But, how often has anyone here seen a non-home job, not a hound, professionally built coach that's not 35 yrs old sell for under $90k. It's not often, even if you have. The home jobs are a dime a dozen, not the real deals. There are still people out there buying and taking advantage of the good prices. Even at $5 a gallon, the fuel cost percentage wise, is still no where near the biggest expense for the average owner. This market hasn't stopped me from using my bus nor from looking. There has been active bidding activity on that bus from day one, so I do expect that it will sell. I feel that I have just a good a shot a being right as the next guy, we will know in four days, maybe less. Anyways, this is fun to watch.
QuoteKinda curious though, the guy says he can't communicate via email, one of the numbers he gives goes straight to voicemail, which is full and he doesn't answer the other phone. Oh well, guess he doesn't need to sell it that bad.
It's entirely possible he is overwhelmed and just not able to respond to it all. If there is too much activity, and he thinks it is underpriced, then it could very well disappear from the auction. The bus my father bought had a lot of interest, but no one showed up to kick the tires. The dealer wanted it gone, along with all of the phone calls, so my father drove it home.
If I were a first time buyer I would look at Bluebirds I have owned 2 and they were great buses but don't buy a FC model( foward engine) but the LTC and the Express have baggage bays same runnning gear and engines as other buses and can be bought for a fraction of what other late model buses sell for plus they are nice looking and parts are cheap
As an older Prevost owner, let me throw in my 2 cents worth. If it runs out good (and it probably does) the main drawback to it is the Liberty conversion. Whoever buys it will probably be looking at almost another $60G's just updating the interior. This is the voice of experience. ;D I believed when I did (and still am doing) the interior in ours, the final product would be worth the actual cost. With the deflated value of RV's in general today, we can only say that it's worth it to us in making it more comfortable and adding to pride of ownership. In conclusion, I believe it's a good starter coach for someone looking to stay away from major mechanical work (if it checks out okay), but plans on making the interior more livable. Not sure it's really a steal though, in todays market. IMHO
Good luck to whoever ends up with it, ;D
OK, what about this one?
BIN $85k
Comments please.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=200243801809
YOU ARE BIDDING ON A ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS 40 FT PREVOST BUS. THIS BUS IS A 2 OWNER WITH 49K ORIGINAL MILES. WELL MAINTAINED IT HAS 8 NEW TIRES ON IT 8 NEW HOUSE BATTERIES, NEW UPGRADED MASERATOR PUMP SYSTEM FOR THE WASTE,ALUMINUM WRAP AWNINGS ALL AROUND, ALCOA RIMS, TAG AXLE THAT LIFTS FOR SHARP TURNING,2 SPEED JAKE BRAKE, 3 CRUISE AIRS, 3 PROPANE HEATERS, AND ALSO 3 ELECTRIC HEATERS WHICH ALL HAVE JUST BEEN SERVICED IN CLUDING ALL THE APPLIANCES SUCH AS DISH WASHER, ICE MAKER, WASHER AND DRYER, STACKABLE MORE USABLE, CENTRAL VAC , SAFE, FLAT TOP BURNERS,SATALLITE SYSTEM, POWER SEATS, AIR DOOR LOCK AND STEP COVER. EXCEPT FOR THE DATENESS OF THE INTERIOR AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE PICTURES THIS IS A VERY NICE 87 BUS FOR THE DOLLAR. I AM SURE YOU WOULD NOT BE DISAPPOINTED IN ANY WAY. GETS 7.1 M.P.G. ON THE ROAD TOWING A SMALL 4WD SUV. IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL ME ON MY CELL AT 863-287-7642. PLEASE ONLY SERIOUS BUYERS BID THIS IS NO GAME. THANKS AND GOOD LUCK BIDDING.. GOD BLESS BOB POWERED BY A 8V-92 WITH 5 SPEED ALLISON AUTOMATIC.AGAIN I WOULD DRIVE THIS COACH ANYWHERE
Quote from: PP on August 03, 2008, 08:03:19 PM
As an older Prevost owner, let me throw in my 2 cents worth. If it runs out good (and it probably does) the main drawback to it is the Liberty conversion.
Will -Might I ask why a Liberty conversion is a drawback? Is it the quality of their workmanship or just the somewhat dated look to the interior?
Please clarify.
;)
If I was going to choose between the two, just on the interiors, I would pick the first one for $59K. I think it would be much easier to update for less money.
Interior design and remodeling is what I do, so what I look for in a project would be a clean slate if possible. I think adding some furniture with some color and pattern would make a huge difference in the first bus. The ceiling is the only really costly problem I can see. It could be capped over with upholstery. Some hardware on the cabinets. If the cabinets are tired, they could be reskined, they appear to be laminate.
The second bus appears cramped and cluttered in the pictures. Oak is out in our area of the country. All the red would need to go. Window treatments appear to be mauve. They would need to go.
The guy selling that $59K bus is also selling a car hauler. It appears he may have a towing business. I'll bet he came into that bus through the towing business.
Don and Cary
GMC4107
Neoplan AN340
It's a moot point now, someone hit the Buy it Now at $59k last night or this morning.
I think the car hauler is for the transport
Of their Inv , auctions etc due to the fact
That they are a pre owned car lot
Nice cars and trucks too
Phil
Liberty coaches are very highly regarded by most Prevost owners. But, they are not engineered for serviceability. Appearance is there #1 priority. Liberty is still in business and is generally helpful to owners. Liberty coaches have demanded the higher prices.
Royale coach is no longer in business. Their coach systems are much more simple and serviceable. Royale is noted for their wood (usually cherry) cabinetry.
Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
If the second coach listed here is located in Florida then that's the same one I have been trying to sell for my friend Bob. He has this bus locally for sale and has had many tire kickers but no takers and honestly can't see why! This bus is everything and more than what pictures show it is. I first saw it in Arcadia and was very impressed with EVERYTHING I saw with it! For the year, it is one of, if not the straightest coaches I have seen! Very clean and well maintained to boot! Of course not every bus that is already converted will fit everyone's needs and will almost have to be personalized once purchased but if I were looking to get into a Prevost, which I'm not, I would not hesitate o n the second one now that the first one is gone!
Also, if anyone needs me to go look at particular items or take other pics of this coach, feel free to just ask. It's not that far away!
Ace
Quote from: Dallas
Doug,
Since eBay has changed it's rating method it's become more difficult to assess a sellers ratings based on the number beside the name.
The feedback is now calculated on a 12 month period and doesn't reflect the total number.
This seller has one neutral and one positive in the last 12 months, which to eBay means a 50% rating.
However, I do agree that this one I would want to look at in person and take along Bryce or RJ or Sammy to look it over. The cost of their services and air fare would pay for itself in peace of mind.
Dallas
Dallas while I appreciate the compliment, I'd say that you'd certainly be a better candidate for a coversion inspection! I may know drive train, chassis, & brakes, and some electrical. But you are by far more experienced in any part of a conversion than I am. FWIW ;D BK ;D
That was me that hit the buy it now button
Decided not to get it after all and there was another couple
There that traded in a 66vette toward it with some cash.
Surprisingly we ALL got along together.
In min MN airport waiting to go to ATL then New Orleans tonight
Phil
Phil,
How about a first hand report? What it decent? Look as good as the photos? Not of your taste? Would like to hear all about it. Good and Bad.
I'm sorry that I did not bring it laptop
Which would make it easier on the typing
Since I'm doing this on my cell phone..
With thumbs!!!
Please forgive,.. More later
Phil
Quote from: RJ on August 03, 2008, 08:34:41 PM
Might I ask why a Liberty conversion is a drawback? Is it the quality of their workmanship or just the somewhat dated look to the interior?
Please clarify.
;)
RJ, I'm not in a position to remark on their quality. Laminates speak for themselves. I'm a solid wood type of guy. I just haven't seen a Liberty conversion yet that didn't come off as either too flashy with no substance, or too much like an entertainer. I'm border line with Marathon conversions, but I like their original materials-something to work with.
My wife and I both prefer the $85K Prevost, only because there's something to start with. She likes the paintjob better too ;D
Those are my opinions, and like a-*s, we all have one.
Someone got a fine bus either way.
To keep things in perspective though, there was a $26k difference. The difference alone could have bought two of my buses, possibly three.
Ok,
Made it back to MS and got a little rest and a real keyboard to type on.
As everyone knows it was impossible to reash the seller by using the phones or any other means Sunday as his phone is turned off on that day. (found out later) So I decide to buy a 1 way ticket to go and check it out and when I land in Minneapolis I talk to my wife on the phone and she says that she did talk to the seller (returned my call) and that there is someone already there to take a look at bus in the morning and they have first choice. She also mentioned that they were looking at trading in a 66 Corvette toward the bus.
I find the dealership and 12:30 AM and take a peak at the bus through locked fenced in area.
I check into the only hotel in town and lay there thinking what I could do to get first shot at it and decided to do a Buy IT Now on ebay to give me the first rights to purchase. I also call the guy at 6 am as my wife said that is when he turns on the phone and mention to him that I had bought it on Ebay early that morning and would meet him there when he opened at 8:00am.
I also knew that he liked Muscle cars from googling his number listed in the auction and found some hits on craiglist so I knew that he was possibly leaning toward trading with the other guy on the vette.
So I made a proposal on the phone before we all met up to take a look at it.
I proposed that he put off any agreements with the other buyer and that he could use the ebay contract to do this. I then said that if I bought it he could take some of the money and buy the car from the other guy direct without out any trades and possibly make a few thousand more if he could. I wanted to make sure that he did not just sell me down the river as I could not go through the expense of holding him to the ebay contract is he sold it to the other guy.
He pauses and said to let him talk to his partner about the idea.
I get there first and get the chance to crank it cold before the others get there and it did crank easy and there was a little tiny bit of white smoke exiting the exhaust.
From what I could tell the underneath looked ok as far as I could see since I did not see any metal "rot" just surface rust. The entire underside had been sprayed with urethane foam and most was not viewable. But what I could see was ok.
The inside was a little worse than the pics made it out to be, aren't they all?
While I did not get the chance to check out every feature of the bus this is the things that I know were needing attention to:
1. Generator was blowing a steady stream of oily blowby out the bottom of the bus along with a 6 " diameter of oil sitting at the bottom of the generator. Can of starting fluid in the bay next to the generator. (they tried to get rid of it) Owner whispered to employee to turn off gen and when I heard this I asked to hear it crank again, now it was hot, and it would not crank. The owner said that the fuel level was keeping it off.
I think that it needed to be replaced, the other buyers agreed.
The bus air, while it seemed to be sucking in real well did not seem to be blowing out too much and it was not really very cool, could have been freon.
A few little dings here and there as it looked ok although you could see where the painting was not top notch if you really examined it.
The tires had some cracking etc and may have needed to be replaced.
I had made a offer of 46,500.00 cash (wire) and a ladies Rolex knowing that the others had been bumped by him to the car AND 5,000.00 cash. I thought that he would prefer my 46,500.00 to the vette and 5,000.00 cash.
He signaled to me, as the other buyers were present that he would take 50,000.00 I motioned that I would pass on it.
He asked the others if they wanted to do the deal with the car and the 5,000.00 and they agreed.
I mentioned that I would do the 50,000.00 without the Rolex and he said that he was working a deal with the others now at this time.
Pretty straight forward deal.
I got on the computer and got some airfare home, missed my initial flight, spent the next 5 hours on standby, spent the night in Minneapolis and then caught a flight to Atlanta at 7 am then waited in that airport till 5pm when I flew to Gulfport MS.
I'm beating myself up pretty bad about not going ahead and getting it and I made the mistake of letting my wife know that I think I made a mistake not getting it and now she was on me a little too.
But she sais that we should try the Eagle for a time to see if we even like traveling like this.
I have a headache now, please excuse me.
Phil
Phil Things happen for a reason! If your really looking for a great bus at a great price get with Bob on the second coach listed here! Its far better than the first one and needs nothing to tra vel or live in!
Ace