BCM Community

Hi, am new to the board and having engine(6V92T)problems with my first bus.I have a slight amount of water dribbling from the right side air box tube,motor is very hard to start . When finally started it seems to run fine,have had a multitude of problems bringing bus home.First the fuel pump,replaced with new,had virtualy no turbo boost,found problem to be disinagrated turbo output hose,replaced it and restored the boost up to around 18-19 pounds ,motor was running kinda hat at around 200 degrees,found radiator to have holes in it ,replacied it tryed to start motor it seemed like it would want to lock at certain points .Finnally got motor running ,water initially blew wa small amount of water out  of exhaust  conections leading to the turbo then motor ran fine seemed to have full power , let it idle for about 1 half hour  temp started to clime back to 200 degrees,shut motor down and tryed to re start which it did revved up engine momentarily at which point it when it returned to idle it stalled .any insight would be apreciated ,thanks

With your temp getting that hot with no load you almost have to have a crack in one of the heads.  You should also have more turbo boust, should be up to 24 to 26 lbs.
Jack

Welcome to the board!

Your 6/92T need to be repair for water in cylinder before you have other things fix.

Quote from: van on July 31, 2008, 09:47:27 AM
Hi, am new to the board and having engine(6V92T)problems with my first bus.I have a slight amount of water dribbling from the right side air box tube,motor is very hard to start . When finally started it seems to run fine,have had a multitude of problems bringing bus home.First the fuel pump,replaced with new,had virtualy no turbo boost,found problem to be disinagrated turbo output hose,replaced it and restored the boost up to around 18-19 pounds ,motor was running kinda hat at around 200 degrees,found radiator to have holes in it ,replacied it tryed to start motor it seemed like it would want to lock at certain points .Finnally got motor running ,water initially blew wa small amount of water out  of exhaust  conections leading to the turbo then motor ran fine seemed to have full power , let it idle for about 1 half hour  temp started to clime back to 200 degrees,shut motor down and tryed to re start which it did revved up engine momentarily at which point it when it returned to idle it stalled .any insight would be apreciated ,thanks

You said "tryed to start motor it seemed like it would want to lock at certain points"....meaning a possible water hydraulic-ing...trying to do more damage if you keep starting it after setting a while.

Your profile is Boulder, Nevada.....Does any one here from MAK board know any good 2 stroke mechanic near? Hope there help near by!

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry

CW, I should be home by Sunday and will give you a call to see if I can help someway

You guy's are truly the best Cheryl and I are truly very grateful for the assistance every one in the busing comunity is providing.This eagle was supose to be a dream come true for us,instead has become a night mare as well as a stumbling block for myself with no end in sight.We are still hopeful that things will get resolved some how and that this will only make us more appreciative of the opportunity to get into busing and be traveling together meeting decent folks such as yourselves thank you all from the bottom of our hearts. hopfully one day we will look back on these days and have a good laugh around the camp fire .luvrbus we are looking foward to meeting you when you get home wish you a safe trip home.

Welcome CW!

Hope you are able to get all the issues resolved so you can enjoy your Eagle!

Clifford (luvrbus) is a wealth of knowledge, he has helped me more than you know.

Good Luck and Happy Trails,

Paul

From what you describe, could be time to look for another engine.   Yours has major issues.
The notching over and then starting, and blowing water out of the exhaust manifold....that's bad news.   Sounds like water on top of one or more pistons.  Might have pounded out a rod (s) bearings, cracked heads, etc.  The etc list is endless.
A good used takeout MUI would be much less expensive than trying to rebuild yours... :-\
A good RH 6V92TA MUI could be bought for $3K...labor to install wouldn't be a show stopper.
Labor to rebuild yours will likely be a show stopper. 
Most shops don't want to deal with two strokes anyway, but those that will get proximal to $12K-$15K to rebuild a 6V92.
Be careful with allowing high priced mechanics to diagnose your problem. 
Don't intend to sound negative, but your engine has taken a hit.  Even if you replaced an offending head, aftercooler, gaskets or whatever, the bottem end is likely damaged. 
Jerry Campbell, in North Carolina (engine may be in Florida?) had a good 6V92TA MUI for sale back in spring....Jack?   
Get a good dependable engine in your bus and the project will look a little brighter.
Be sure that no other 'gremlin$' are lurking. 
How far have you driven the bus? Does the transmission, clutch (if manual), or anything else jump out at you?   Has the bus been checked by an Eagle dude for rust? 
Not sure what you have exactly, but be sure that the finished project merits the expenditure of replacing an engine. 
Even if Jerry's motor has been sold, you shouldn't have any problems finding a good used 6V92.  You can probably find an engine that you can 'drive' home for cheap these days. 
Get some good DD diesel advice when buying a takeout.   
Do you have the skills (or maybe better, a family member that's a mechanic? Or anyone that really like to get dirty!) to pull the heads and pan? 
By just pulling the rocker covers, inspection covers and pan, you often can see water trickling out of the affected cylinder ports.  Helps to know where to look when tearing down an engine. 
If you could do this sort of work, you could inframe your engine....could.  Still be a lot work. 
Welcome to bus'n!   Hope the journey becomes a lot smoother!   These sorts of issues build 'busnut' character.  You'll know more, and be better prepared for future setbacks...of which we'll hope are few! 
Are any pix of your project posted on the board?
JR

Welcome Van,

I think a lot of us get surprises we didn't expect when we got our buses; some surprises are more costly than others are though, so you are in good company. I don't know much about Eagles other than I like the looks. But what about a repower to a four stroke if you have to swap a motor anyways? Every time I spend a dollar on my bus my wife says, "When you bought it, I thought you said it didn't need anything else". I now try to explain that I meant it already had jakes, spring brakes, power steering etc. I soon found out that even when you start out with a decent machine the opportunities to spend money on it are endless. However, it was a hobby/life style choice, and so far it has been enjoyable. I think once you get your power unit working right you will be grinning ear to ear.

Good luck,

Laryn

Van
You live close to B&B in Vegas might be good to go over an talk with them.  There is lots of know how there and they have worked on lots of Eagles.  Takes a while to get over the hard spots but they last a long time after that.
Jack

ok now that I've recovered from having a near stroke ,and my wife and mom having an emotional break down,we've heard the worst that could possibly be wrong with our power plant could there some how be a best case scenareo or am I just plain S.O.L. See we are not as fortunate to have deep pockets as other folks might be at this time, I'm sorry for sounding so frustrated ,

thanx

Sadly, depending on the number of mechanics in your 'circle', SOL?   
However, if you know anyone that could assist you with diagnosing the engine, you may be able to salvage the thing. 
Try to repair it in a workmanlike manner.  The engine could be crapped together and run well, but it'll take a dump when you least need such events.  Get it fixed right, and you'll never have to deal with it again....probably.  You just about cannot wear a bus conversion engine out.
First, before removing anything, figure out where (what cylinders) the water is leaking into and what cylinders are affected,  pull the heads, have a quality machine shop check and replace what may be damaged or cracked.  Or get some rebuilt heads, or head, as the situation warrants. 
Drain the oil.  If water comes out...bummer.  Again, drain the water and oil, pull the pan, and remove a couple caps and see what may be pounded or galled.   Check the rod bearings that are on the cylinders with water incursion.  The rods could be bent. Water will bend a rod right now.  Be sure someone that is familiar with torquing mains and rod bolts are assisting you with this process...if the project gets this far.. 
If you find damaged rod or main bearings, time to quit and look for a used engine.
Read the manual before you start working on the engine.
With the heads off, check the cylinders for scuffing, rust, wear, cracks...you name it. 
If the cylinders are in good condition, the rod bearings are not damaged, you don't find water in the oil, then you may salvage the engine.   
You've likely got a head that is leaking water.  Cracked, injector tube, whatever. 
Keep in mind that you can find good engines for $3K...or even less if motivated to look around.  They are literally everywhere.  A 6V92TA MUI can sit for several years and not be harmed.  As long as the intake isn't open to atmo, and essentially it's still installed in something.   Used bus engines are probably best.   Fire apparatus and marine applications are higher HP engines, which may be impossible to cool in a bus.   Truck 6V92 engines are not common anymore...probably DOA when it was parked.   
Your engine has major issues.  Unless you wish to tackle some of this work utilizing friends and family with mechanical skills, it's going to get expensive.   
Your failure sounds related to overheat problem.  The damage may have occured prior to when you bought the bus.   The fact that the engine can get to 200* idling is a sign of cooling system issues yet to be resolved.  Probably no more than aireation of the coolant due to cracks or leaks in the head (s).   "No more" being a relative term. 
Heads aren't especially expensive, and you can have the heads checked for leaks and cracks..once removed. 
Parts aren't particularly expensive, and they're readily available. 
Labor is expensive.   You gotta find a way to offset the labor. 
Buy a DD V92 repair manual and have a go at the engine.   Eplace...$20 bucks on CD.
The engine should be disassembled and serviced ASAP.  If water is circulating thru the engine, it is now sitting there rusting.   
It the liners are damaged, it's time to regroup.  Without highly skilled help, the liners are not a backyard job...however, with skilled help, these could be replaced in your backyard. 
I'm familiar with MCIs not Eagles, but, as I recall, the top-end of the engine is accessable thru the floor?   Is your bus converted?  Is the floor hatches still accessable? Hope so.
If you decide to remove the heads, be sure and mark everything so that the components can be returned to their original location.  Take dig pix for ref.   Don't disassemble any assemblies that don't require disassembly...such as rocker shafts, gov...
Get ready for some exercise!  And get ready to get down and dirty!  ;)
Other busnuts may have better ideas...??  But it's time to get started..before the engine rusts and locks up on you. 
JR 

 

My 89 is DDEC 2. It would be nice to have MUI but more work than its worth.

 Cheryl and every one here thinks the world of every one who has helped out , we thank you all .this reminds me of the time I sat on a motor cycle for the very first time ,burnt my leg on the exhaust pipes really bad but some how still developed a love for harleys and have been riding them ever since .I have always had a thing for bus's  rode on them all through out my child hood growing up back in brooklyn NY even lived right next to one of the largest nyc bus terminals in BKLYN ,now I have one that is my own the journey begins once more ,but the best thing of all is that I have people to share it with,The bug has bitten I'M HOOKED

Sorry about the ordeal but if you do need to replace engine, there is chances for transit buses with a decent 6/92T motor. Many small charter bus company find a salvage bus and take out what they needs to get their own one running back on the road. Many 8/71 and 6/92 will go more miles then we could ever put in. Have a two cycle mechanic with you while searching the bus. Have it running for you before you pay.

You could talk to a charter bus or city bus shop to give a location for one.

Hang in there and keep posting the up date.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry

PS...who know what you might find out there for a $500 that is running

I removed the air box cover plates was able to look into all the cylinders   by jogging the engine around and peering thru the holes in the sleeves .From what i could see the cylinder walls looked clean and what I could see of the rings did not look too bad either ,checked for water in the oil pan,found none. with the air box plates still removed refilled coolant system with water and saw water trickling into the first cylinder only on the r/h side and the first and second cylinders on the l/h side,redrained the coolant system ,once emptyed spun engine over again to make shure no water was left in the cylinders.while turning the engine over (with the fuel shut off arm wired in the off position)did not notice any unusual noises or grinding, replaced pan and air box covers and did not refill coolant system.I would imagine that if I were to try and restart the engine it would probably fire right up again(which I won't).The same thing occured after putting in the new radiator last monday filled the system with water and the engine seemed to hydroloc it'self ,drained the water from the system tried to start engine a couple of more times and the thing fired up and ran like nothing was ever wrong and was able to move it back to it's parking spot , I did however refill the system with water again before I moved it .does this sound like it could be either worn injector tubes or mushed o-rings on the cyl sleeves?

My SWAG....could you tell whether the water was coming in from the airbox?  Or was it coming from  inside the cylinders above the pistons?
If the water is running into (and around) the cylinders from the airbox, you may have an aftercooler that is leaking. 
If the water's coming from above the piston, that would indicate heads have problems. 
You may luck out here yet....if you resolve the water leaks and get the engine running again,  may want to consider keeping the coach close to home for a while. 
Or, pull the pan and check the affected rod bearings.   With all the clatter of a diesel, some unusual noise could get by. 
I'm hesitant to tell you to pull anything, at least until you determine where the water is coming from. 
The aftercooler could put water on both LH and RH sides. Whatever it is, you got a good leak going.
Take another look and see if the water is running out of the airbox.   If so, pull the turbo and blower for access to the after cooler.   If water is running in through or around from the airbox, again, the aftercooler might be the cause. 
If the water's trickling down inside the cylinder walls and running out the outside ports, the heads are likely at fault.   That would indicate a major mojo overheat.  And likely other damage related to the overheat.   
Failed liner "O" rings could dump water into the pan.  Since you found no water in the pan...??
Later style "O" rings are pretty resilent. 
Not sure how much access you have to the ports on your Eagle, but use mirrors or whatever to get a good look into and across the ports.  See if you can determine the pathway the water is taking as it runs out. 
I went back and read some of your data and see that you have an '89 Eagle.   That's probably a DDEC II engine.   I suggested looking for an MUI (Mechanical Unit Injection)...don't do that.   Not good advice on my part.  You'll need a DDEC II replacement engine.   
The only way to use an MUI (reasonable way) would be to use the complete powerplant and transmission from a similar coach.   6V92TA/HT740.  Then you'd have to install an air shifter and throttle.  Too much work.  Your DDEC is desirable when it's working correctly. 
You don't want get into trying to make your ATEC transmission work with an MUI. 
Sorry for the confusion.
But, sadly, DDEC II RH takeouts are not as common as MUIs.   And they are a little more expensive when you find one.  They were manufactured from late '88 till about '93.  Most of the GLI MC12s on the market had 6V92TA DDEC IIs and probably some IIIs.  Some of those coaches also had S50s...just a few...   
The DDEC engine is good for you.  The top-end is much easier to disassemble and reassemble. No racks...no gov, very cool.
Post what you find on the source of the water.   
My next recommendation is to move along with this diagnostic phase as quickly as possible. The engine has water inside that's rusting rings and such as we discuss this issue.  The quicker the engine is returned to functionality, the better.
Good luck Van, JR


 

Van,

Everything I have read here seems like golden advice.  One thing stands out as missing and that is the "order".  It seems that all agree that if you have had hydraulic lock you may have terminal lower end damage that cannot be dealt with except thru a NON costeffective overhaul.  No water in the oil was a good deal for you. Draining the oil seemed the absolute first step to inspecting the lower end.  Had you found water in the oil I think the advice is to replace that motor.  You didn't so I think that the next step is to drop the pan and check the bearings.  If you don't have a galled or "hammered" bearing I think that only then should you proceed.  I personally would not restrict my inspection to "only the rods on pistons that showed water leakage".  Replacing bearings seems to be a periodic maint item with the DD so doing it any time should not be a concern so much as a good idea.  Of course, if they are in good shape I think you can simply grease them and re torque but you need a board expert to tell you that is OK.  Only then would I pull the heads.  You said that the cylinders looked good so if all goes well to that point you might have a salvageable/repairable motor...and praise be!  I would only install reman heads with matched injectors and new everything.  You get a stripped head and start transferring stuff across you may be transferring the problem to the new head.  I am confident that if I had some rented muscle and "DA BOOK" I could pull this off with no more than 15 or 20 calls to Don Fairchild or other expert.  Most important asset was Da Book.

I think you should have had your coolant checked for carbon monoxide when she heated up at idle.  Most say that a DD won't even come up to operating temp at idle....just slobber...oil that is.  I would wait till I had a motor running and knew I had cooling issues before I launched into the cooling system as you had real good reasons for even a primo cooling system to heat up.  Don Fairchild seems to be the gold standard for DD advice and rebuilding.  I would get my heads (and as much advice as you can carry) from him and after I got that bad girl running I would visit him for an inspection and such.  You don't know what you don't know and for an expert to say "you have no more issues" you are way ahead of you drawing that same conclusion.

Get some idea of what the repair will cost in TOTAL as soon as you can.  Checking the bottom end will cost little and if you can get away with heads you will know what you need and shop prices.  If it is scorched you will still know what you need.

I hope this discussion is helpful in some way.  I am sorry for your trouble.  If I were close I would help in any way I could.  Please let us know how the bottom end looks.  You will get more and better advice as the project progresses.


John

Hi ,back again .I should have been a little more clear about what engine is in the bus,the bus is a 89 serial #1EUBN6A16KB070287, according to craig hanloh @eagle it came equipt with a 6v92t mechanical engine which it does have(has throttle cable)and is silver in color will try to retrieve the engine numbers off the data sticker on the engine later . once again my sincere thanks to all who have responded to my postings it is a reliefe to have some info as to the possible causes in the absence of the manualsof which I plan to have real soon .at best from what I could observe thru the inspection plates yesterday the water was leaking into the cylinders above the pistons and dripping out thru the holes not alot on the rh side and maybe just a little more on the lh side when i topped of the coolant system with water.was able to remotely jog engine around to look into each cylinder port with the covers off ,after which I did drain the watter from the coolant system via the lower radiator hose and with the fuel still shut off and plates still open spun the ie over to expell y more water that I thought would be left in the engine which I think I achieved ( no more water tickling out thru the cyls)water did not appear to be leaking from around the out side of the cyl sleeves just from the inside at the top some where ,also after draining all the water out and buttoning the plates back up ,then pulled down the oil pan and found no trace of water there , I don't know why But had a sigh of relief at that moment Felt good for what it was worth(six pac of beer would have been nice too ha ha)it was like having one of those marlboro moments.I would like to give a brief history of the bus while I have had possesion of it .Picked up the bus initially from Carmi Ill,(southern Illinois)did the walk around insp as usual,did do a lot of research on eagle busses how ever regarding the skeletal structure and the chasis assblys ,maint and inspection .found the structure of the thing to be in pretty darn good shape considering the rust problems that seem to plague eagles more than others ,only a few non suport rails under one of the bagaggcompartments on the right side of the coach checked out all fluids every thing normal and lo major leaks after the road test.drove home with my new pride and joy,did seem to be missing the torque I was anticipated climing up the grades on the freeways about 3.5 psi on the dial for boost was what was registerd on the clock(that issue was taken care of after I got Home)turned out turbo out let coupler hose was disinegrated,fixed .lmost 20 psi now (incredible torgue now whoo hoo)headed home on I40 lost a fuel pump,3 days and 1 new pump later on the road again ,getting off at king man az and making the grade out of laughlin nv.bus had just barely enough power to get out of its own way temp rose toabout 200 degrees  and finally made it home at about 30 mph virtually no power Collapsed fuel supply line in engine comp fixed that problem .drove bus one more time to do the dept of DMV thimg,stopped a B B coach toshow gary and get some pointers on the mechanicals(is that a word). thats when we noticed the blown radiator while topping of the water in the coolant system( start pos on the  switch wasnt working) Well whatta ya know niagra falls ,the fuel pump was the first repair expense,ok not the most expensive thing I have ever bought 260.00 to be exact not to mention the service truck to help pressure prime the engine after I installed the new pump(thank god took enery tool I thought I would need to work on this thing with me)seems the norm for a neew recore is arount $1000-1400 gary on the other hand had afew model 10 radiators in good condition and god bless 'em offer me one for dirt cheap ,which was my first project now I love rollin up my sleaves and getting dirty always have always will,gives me purpose got the darn thing in(heavy S>O>B)lined up new shroad fan still have to make the extended  mounting bracket but the job went well and as expected.This is where my story begins filling the coolant system for the first time after new rad install is when i noticed the trickle of water out of the right side air box vent line (left side line must be clogged ,cause there was eventualy more water on that side) and the engine was hard to turn over ,eventually did get it fired up after draining the water out of the system,I know that git er fixed ,have to try to raise the extra moolhaa for parts (heads gaskets etc) but boy the first ime ya come across a situation like this it comes on real fast like t boning a car on your harley after tey just blew a red light,and yes i've had 4 wrecks in my life time just like that ( never do get usto it),but it happens to the best of us.not till I read the post AS USUAL did I realize that I was NOT ALONE and there where others too having a bus moment(non marlboro of course) such as my self and I need to collect my composure the knolege and resources needed to pull this off.and get the critter running right,my plan from the git go was to find a good platform from which to build on first make it dependable ,then use the darn thing whilst converting it and making it livable .Seems like either money ,time or resource availability become the little gemlins that will twist your cookies enough to make ya crack,but realizing this early on .can save ya alot of heart ache and only helps ya become more in tune and roficiant in trouble shooting any thing  thanks guys for the ear the thoughts advice and kind gestures ,somthing which will always be passed down to others I might encounter down the road  , will keep every one posted of any future updates(or mishaps ha ha)that come up.My ultimate goal now is to be able to have more than enough power so I can put up a sign that reads PASSENGERS ARE REQUESTED TO REFRAIN FROM SCREAMING Above the drivers seat or some thing like DO NOT OPEN WINDOWS AT SPEEDS IN EXCESS OF 100 MPH . Just my thoughts ,ha ha ha ,bye.

very thankfun
van

P.S. do they make wheelie bars for bus's

Van,

You say you only saw 200 degrees.  Your problems don't appear to have been in the motor when you first bought her.  I suspect that your temp gauge is reading low as 200 shouldn't have trashed both your heads....215 or 220 should...according to what i read.  That "heat gun" is turning out to be an indispensable tool for evaluating the accuracy of gauges and trouble shooting cooling problems and HF has them for cheap.

Good luck and thanks for keeping us informed,

John

hi john ,thanks ,well as things progress slowly with the engine repair it gives me ample time to get after the other things that I know will become issues down the road such as electrical terminal panels.I do seem to remember there were gauges that would read temps and voltages partially,intermitantly or not at all at any givin time probably due to the corrosion on the terminal stud posts ,as i've read on some of the elec problems posted(no brake lights,etc)these problems seem to deal with rusted over conections ,now seems to be the time to deal with it before It becomes an issue .have already dealt with the alt ,batt ,starter cables which was a mess.my temp gauge sending unit was spray painted over which is now cleaned up but the sensor right next to it has me baffled in that it only has one wire attached to it and 3or 4 dangling next to it not conected is this the shut down ???

just made a phone call to bb coach gary says he has a 6v92t silver he'd let me have for $500.00, he's notshure right now if it was a mech or elec he also assumes that it ran,came with a bus he purchased a while back ,my question is if it was an elec model can it be used for a mechanical set up provided it runs and how to find if it will run properly? hey cliff are ya home yet give me a call buddy if ya can

Hang in there, looks to me like you have gotten some good advise.  I don't think I have seen many things that the guys and gals here can't help with. 

Just be careful with the looooong paragraphs.....   ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: buddydawg on August 06, 2008, 08:59:57 AM
Hang in there, looks to me like you have gotten some good advise.  I don't think I have seen many things that the guys and gals here can't help with. 

Just be careful with the looooong paragraphs.....   ;D ;D ;D

Ya tell me about it! LOL! Next thing ya know someone will use your identity to send a nasty msg to someone giving you corrective critasism, and then a big ol' nasty can of worms opens up! Until it is discovered what happened! Need I go farther? I don't think so! I think the parties involed know who they are, and would be well advised not to keep it up. Or things could start to get ugly!  ;D  BK  ;D

hey,ya know it's kinda hard typin this stuff from inside the engine compartment where i've been livin for the past week,momma said don't come outta there till it's fixed (thought I hit the enter button) gotta go she's busted me again not workin.Ha Ha

Van,

I can't help with the purpose of the wires next to the sender.  Someone here will reply to that, I'm sure.  Needs an answer though, you are right.  Did you get a copy of the DD engine manual on order.  I would suggest the more expensive paper version but I am old school.

I noticed something about your engine that I wanted to comment on.  Your exhaust plumbing has no dark sections around the joints.  I see lots of DD's with this condition.  I have no other explanation than it is oil in the exhaust that would indicate a worn engine.  That would indicate an "end of life" condition to me.  Yours isn't there yet from appearances.

I think I would pass on a $500 engine the condition of which is unknown. 

Did you get the bearings off yet?  Inquiring minds and all that. ;D

Good Luck,

John

I would not pass on the engine for 500.00 the turbo is worth that much and if it is not froze better yet

i haven't gone near the bearings yet think I will wait to view the manuals so I know what i am getting into,am headed over to bb coach to inspect garys engine,
thanks
van

The gizmo with the red top and two terminals looks like an alarmastat sender.  It could (was?) be attached to a shutdown device. 
Probable that someone disconnected the unit after it shut them down. 
May be one on both heads. 
Check the switch for continuity...of none, connect the two wires that attach to the switch together, turn on the ignition master and see what happens.  You should get an overheat alarm, light, or the fuel supply sol will shut off.  Or maybe all of the above?
Your engine has suffered an insult greater than 200* I'd bet.
Take the old $500 buck engine.  At the least,  you have cores, and you can 'practice' on the core. 
The short answer to your question about using a DDEC engine in place of an MUI.  The answer is no.  Too many parts missing on a DDEC engine.  Some parts could be used, but not the complete engine.
Still, the scrap value is close to what you're paying for the unit. 
When you buy your next bus, look for such wiring disconnects.  These are often a sign....a bad sign! 
Be really careful when handling a complete engine...they are about 2500 lbs, top heavy, and should be bolted to a pallet or something maintain a position. 
BTW, you'll have to drop your starter to get the pan off the engine.   Make sure that the battery ground is disconnected before disconnecting the starter wiring.
The starter is heavy too...be don't get mashed hands or body parts. 
JR
 

I don't how involved it is but the PO of my fathers bus had a DDEC rebuilt into a MUI. Anyone know more about what it takes? Cost?

Bad O rings on the cylinders will leak water into the oil pan.  Either a cracked cylinder head, leaking injector tubes, or just plainly a blown head gasket.  Whichever way, the heads have to come off.  Good Luck, TomC

its obvious then  the mission @ hand still waiting to get hands on the dd service/parts manual to familurize my self with the removal/install procedures.I haven't found a place close by to do the work yet.
  My present location is in the back of the best western hotel,which the maneger has been very tolerant .Last thing I want to do is wear out my welcome by pulling the bus apart there .Sucks living in a condo complex .

Since DDEC engines don't have govs, racks, and moveable injectors, and no place to mount a gov, those components will have to be supplied from a donor. 
The short block assy could be used.  Since Van's heads are very likely gone, he'll need to find essentially an MUI donor. 
It can be done, but it's going to require a good bit of DD knowledge to complete the exchange. 
DDEC engines are pretty rare and are usually more expensive than an MUI.   
There were a good many 6/71T DDEC engines floating about which are much easier to convert to MUI than 6V92TAs.  That don't help you much.
Van, a good 6V92TA takeout would sure make your project easier.  Keep posting and asking and you'll find an engine that will allow reparations in two days...your engine can be swapped out rather quickly.
Consider the history of your engine too...you may get the heads off, and buy a couple of complete reman'd heads and get them installed.   You'll spend half of what a good takeout 6V92TA is worth once everthing's done.  And you still could well have other bottom end problems. 
The only way to know, is to disassemble the bottom end and look.
Another word of caution, if you go the takeout route, get a DD knowledgeable mechanic to look at the engine.  Buy a running engine.  Not one that has been sitting out and unused for years.   Right now, in this market, you can probably find an MCI with a 6V92TA that you can drive the donor engine to the work-site.  Scrap the rest of the MCI once the powertrain is stripped.   
Installing heads on an engine and setting up the racks, etc, isn't a 'newbie' project really.   If you're an auto mechanic or some such, maybe, but this ain't gonna be a beginner project.  Changing the heads out will require a considerable bit of specialized equipment too. Sadly. 
Replacing the complete engine is easier than what you are about to get involved in. 
Dallas, were are you?  Anywhere near Van's Eagle?   ::)
Still need to tow the bus to a location where repairs can be made.  Sounds like you don't have a place to work? 
It's gonna get nasty where you work on the engine.  Antifreeze, engine oil, PS fluid....yuck.. :-\ 
The engine and cradle can be removed with a pallet jack (s?)...and some creativity.  You'll want a hard surface to work on.
Or, pay someone to swap out the engine.     
Maybe a busnut has some space nearby? 
Post what you're doing...I wish you well with whatever pathway to repair you choose!

JR

 

Quote from: NJT5047 on August 07, 2008, 10:20:45 AM

Installing heads on an engine and setting up the racks, etc, isn't a 'newbie' project really.   If you're an auto mechanic or some such, maybe, but this ain't gonna be a beginner project.  Changing the heads out will require a considerable bit of specialized equipment too. Sadly. 

I have to agree with JR on this one. I spent quite a long time and quite a few dollars acquiring the needed tools for running the rack. These are very specialized

Quote
Replacing the complete engine is easier than what you are about to get involved in.

Mucher Easiererer! 

Quote
Dallas, were are you?  Anywhere near Van's Eagle?   ::)

We are still in BFE, Ohio. We'll be here until next Wednesday or so. We haven't decided what direction to go, but I did email Van a while back when this first started and offer my services.

Quote
Still need to tow the bus to a location where repairs can be made.  Sounds like you don't have a place to work? 
It's gonna get nasty where you work on the engine.  Antifreeze, engine oil, PS fluid....yuck.. :-\ 
The engine and cradle can be removed with a pallet jack (s?)...and some creativity.  You'll want a hard surface to work on.
Or, pay someone to swap out the engine.     
Maybe a busnut has some space nearby? 
Post what you're doing...I wish you well with whatever pathway to repair you choose!

JR 

Listen to JR, he and most everyone else is giving you good advice Van.

Dallas

The problem is that with Van's help I just bought the 6V92TA ddec II engine. I will help van all I can to get him back on the road. I will be in Las Vegas the 16-19 of this month and will meet Van and see what we can do for him.

On yea,Tom C, the liner "o"rings on a 92 are above the ports and will leak out the air box drains and into the cylinders.

Above the ports wet liner below the ports dry like a 71

To change from a DDEc to an MUI you change the injector's, the camshafts and the blower

Hope this helps.

Don

Don, glad you are helping this guy if he can get here you are welcome to use my shop where are you going to be in Vegas I need you to look at my 8v92 I think S&S installed the wrong injectors I am blowing black smoke like crazy now and my fuel milage has gone to hell

Clifford,

I am not bringing the bus, We are staying at the belagio for three nights. When you say it is blowing black smoke, is it all the time under throttle, like a freight train or just on throttle up and then it clears after you are at cruse rpm. what does it do in the hills. Do you know what they set the injectors at. Do you know what your boost pressure is. I can meet you in LV. on the 19th of Aug.if that will help. I will pick up the engine from Gary on that day.

Call me 1 888 473 3626

Don

Quote from: luvrbus on August 07, 2008, 12:46:28 PM
Don, glad you are helping this guy if he can get here you are welcome to use my shop where are you going to be in Vegas I need you to look at my 8v92 I think S&S installed the wrong injectors I am blowing black smoke like crazy now and my fuel milage has gone to hell

Hey Clifford,
Ya already asked "Da man" for help on this, and I can think of nobody more qualified on it! But just curious is it MUI or DDEC? If it's DDEC I'd suspect the turbo boost sensor! I had one go bad on the "Hot Rod" (the old SETRA I had that had the 550 HP 8V92 DDEC in it), and it did just as you described! A new boost sensor and I was back to passing everything except a fuel stop! LOL!  ;D  BK  ;D

Quote from: Don Fairchild on August 07, 2008, 12:20:58 PM
The problem is that with Van's help I just bought the 6V92TA ddec II engine. I will help van all I can to get him back on the road. I will be in Las Vegas the 16-19 of this month and will meet Van and see what we can do for him.

On yea,Tom C, the liner "o"rings on a 92 are above the ports and will leak out the air box drains and into the cylinders.

Above the ports wet liner below the ports dry like a 71

To change from a DDEc to an MUI you change the injector's, the camshafts and the blower

Hope this helps.

Don

VAN,
You have got the right guy helping you now! I'm gonna tell ya for where you are and everything considered, you can't beat Don "Da man" Fairchild! Even if he does hang out with Dale! LOL!

Sorry Dale I couldn't resist that one, especially since ya ain't been active lately! (try'n to provoke ya into posting again!)

Quote from: Don Fairchild on August 07, 2008, 12:20:58 PM
The problem is that with Van's help I just bought the 6V92TA ddec II engine. I will help van all I can to get him back on the road. I will be in Las Vegas the 16-19 of this month and will meet Van and see what we can do for him.

Don

Don and Van, if the DDEC engine is coming from a complete bus or truck, and the DDEC II is intact, what about using the DDEC II components on the engine and wiring in the throttle pot?   Other than an ignition switch, cruise, and high idle, the engine would be a bolt-in.   The existing engine control leads could be used to power up the ECM for quick install and move.   
Cruise, high idle, and CEL,  could wait, or be wired up if (as) time permits. 
The only wires that would be totally necessary would be the TPS.   The ECM could be overwritten by any DD dealer to lose the auto trans, if the engine came from an auto trans.  If a manual...??
Drop a VSS into the transmission and wire it in...viola... ::) 
Converting to DDEC from MUI is easier than going from DDEC to MUI.
If the DDEC II components are missing....well, please delete this post!
Stripping out a complete DDEC harness from a donor is a PITA.  Using Van's existing engine control wiring is doable on a DDEC II. 
FWIW, my thought of the hour!~   JR


 

Thanks fellas,lokkin foward to meeting with Don andand will soak up any recomendations he is willin to give me .I think now is a good time to relocate ,have done so twice in the past 6 years to accomidate my motor cycle shop and other hobbies.It will always be the same story ,Honey we need more room or hey the the folks next door are complaining about the noise again.
 
  I need more room again,10 15 acres sounds about right .need to the build a building big enough for all the toys this time as well as the ones still to come( hey cliff how big was the one you put up).room for the fab and machine shop,as well as a functional paint booth,NICE!

Well great now my computor(pc)has crashed,don't know if I a can save it.I do have another comp that I can use till I replace my desk top. contact info is in my profile if you need an imediate response,will try to check postings every day by early am,

thanx

van

CW, I have a 60x40 18ft tall for sale not far from you in Nev I sent you a email

 Grettings ,well finally got the dd manual couple of days ago and have been studying it for hours .Todays the day to go out and start pulling the plumbing and exhaust along with that damn transit bumper to gain access to the cyl heads.Don will be in town on tues to help assess the damage and hopefully  take the heads back with him.My goal right now is to have every thing ready by tues so we can see if there is any damage to the cyls,piston, rods and heads etc.Having the manual really helped take the edge off the situation,as well as having some one more technically proficient than I am right now .

   The goal is to restore the engine to it's previous glory,alot has been acomplished in the short time since my problem occured.New radiator,a thorough flushing of the cooling system,new fuel pump,restored and cleaned batt cables along with not just replacing the 2 batts that I had in the rig but 3 brand spanky new start batteries.Original batteries were tested and showed one shorted and one good whichI will use for the onan generator that came with the bus.I even attacked all the terminal connections in the rear electrical panel cleaning the ones I could get loose and replacing the ones that went snap when I tryed to get them off.lotta work but worth it in the long run.

  It will be a long road traveled to bring this beast back to where it should be.feeling alot better lately about doing this work now compared to the state of mind I was in a couple of weeks ago.what started out as passion to get an eagle of my own to convert and turn into a work of art turned into a frantic serch for help and direction.finding this board and the advice of those in the know has helped me more than all you could realize.The comon misconception of buying and converting a bus is that there will be some things thart are gonna need to be replaced,but that you are gonna be able to jump right in and start transforming the interior right away.In my case knowing about the chasis was a plus but not having the engine inspected thoroghly was a big kick to the nuts(can I say that,oh well it's the truth).well if asked by some one else considering to buy a bus(shell or already converted)how to go about it ,my advise is Buyer beware.I know that there were a lot of posts laying out proper proceedures and advice in this area but some times emotions can take the place of knowlege.Its not to often you get to feel like a kid again whith a new toy to play with,get it home and realize that it don't work (dirty *^%@!@  #$%%% !##$$% )BUMMER!

  New toys are cool,very invigarating,almost euphoric,thats the way it should be its good for the soul(blessings from up above)but as always in everything seek wise counsel before comitting to any thing.Not having the resources to takle any job just makes the goal harder to achieve.folks considering embarking on this journey for the first time should gather the resources needed to make it a pleasent trip .ask a lot of questions go out and meet the folks in the know and finally take someone expierianced to help look over your new purchase NUFF SAID,I thank you.

Quote from: van
  It will be a long road traveled to bring this beast back to where it should be.feeling alot better lately about doing this work now compared to the state of mind I was in a couple of weeks ago.what started out as passion to get an eagle of my own to convert and turn into a work of art turned into a frantic serch for help and direction.finding this board and the advice of those in the know has helped me more than all you could realize.The comon misconception of buying and converting a bus is that there will be some things thart are gonna need to be replaced,but that you are gonna be able to jump right in and start transforming the interior right away.In my case knowing about the chasis was a plus but not having the engine inspected thoroghly was a big kick to the nuts(can I say that,oh well it's the truth).well if asked by some one else considering to buy a bus(shell or already converted)how to go about it ,my advise is Buyer beware.I know that there were a lot of posts laying out proper proceedures and advice in this area but some times emotions can take the place of knowlege.Its not to often you get to feel like a kid again whith a new toy to play with,get it home and realize that it don't work (dirty *^%@!@  #$%%% !##$$% )BUMMER!

  New toys are cool,very invigarating,almost euphoric,thats the way it should be its good for the soul(blessings from up above)but as always in everything seek wise counsel before comitting to any thing.Not having the resources to takle any job just makes the goal harder to achieve.folks considering embarking on this journey for the first time should gather the resources needed to make it a pleasent trip .ask a lot of questions go out and meet the folks in the know and finally take someone expierianced to help look over your new purchase NUFF SAID,I thank you.

VAN,
As been said before WELCOME to our MADNESS! We all been there and done that! It's the crazy thing about being a busnut! The only real common denominator is we are all really nuts! We can't help it, but we love buses, and yes we are "nuts" for doing it! But someday, some how it all comes together and seems worth while! That's when we give off that "fake" vibe that it's not a big deal to be a busnut! Which in turn lures in more unsuspecting busnuts!
;D  BK  ;D

   Took the heads off last sunday turns out they are both cracked exactly at the cyls I previously described where the water was trickling into.Now I know the state that the engine was in when I finally picked up the bus and got it home(LV)from carmi Ill.sequence of events goes like this1)fuel pumpgoes out in Amarillo(replaced),no boost all the way homedue to a bad turbo output coupler hose (3psi),installed new which raised boost to 21 psi.Had replaced a collapsed fuel supply hose to the primary filter which I am sure contributed the the fuel pump failure in tx(took pump apart to find out what happened sheered gear drive shaft).Bus is now runnin greatand ventured out to get her registered stopped a B&Bfirst to let Gary see it and discovered the massive hole in the radiator,now here comes the meat and potatoes of the problemwhile the engine was at around 190 degrees we topped off the rad with water and when I pulled out left a big cloud of white steam which I'm shure put the first cracks in the heads

  after getting the bus home had to move the bus again had it running and did the same dumb mistake all over again by putting the water hose into the resevoir once more to keep it filled .now I never had a starting problem before we noticed the rad problem(turn key and boom running engine )never even heard the starter spin just turned the key and the motor jumped to life .Well ok we replaced the rad with one I purchased from gary which tested out very nicely. installed it figuring that all previous issues are taken care of, but now the engine is taking a lot of effort to get started . turns out after opening the air box covers revealed water trickling into 3 cyls (1 on the rs and 2 on the Ls of engine .Now that the heads are off the answer is obvious to me seeing the crack running from valve seat to valve seat on the affected cylinders.

  Having the heads off makes inspection of the cylinder sleeves much easier,they look pretty damn nice .Can still see the marks from the honing they recieved some 38,000mi ago(previous owner indicated engine rebuild 37,000mi ago at time of trade).Although the rebuild is undocumented the signs are obvious that there was some form of rebuild was performed.Don Fairchild will be here this afternoon and I expect That he will probably confirm my suspictions .In any event the goal is to replace the heads to get the bus mobile once more and then get it to a location where the power pack can be removed ,dissassembled ,inspected thoroughly,and rebuilt from the ground up .I know it is cheaper to just go buy a running pull out to to install as suggested by my esteemed fellow bus nuts ,but in my opinion that puts me in the same situation as when I first aquired the bus not knowing what I got .It is still an option to get a pull out to rebuild,but if the lower end of the engine I have now is servicable the answer is obvious regardless of the expense.Converting the bus is totally pointless to me if the heart of the beast cannot power the bus to get outof it's own way(MIGHT AS WELL FILL IT WITH POTTING SOIL AND TURN IT INTO A BIG PLANTER).

  This issue will get resolved one way or the other even if I have to power it with rubber bands(a whole bunch hee hee)it's only a simple machine.Hopefully we caught the problems in time to save it .Having don come out to lend a hand will assist me in making an educated dicision instead of making a BIG mistake .I would also like to invite any one who might be in the LV area today to come out and take a look to see what we're upto and meet Don Fairchild,and voice any suggestions or questions they might have Hell we can even turn this into some sort of bbq event HA HA,and get to meet some more fellow bus nuts(we might even get to learn somthing new.


  THANKS ALL

     VAN



  P.S. I will post any updates as they occur.

[quote author]
(MIGHT AS WELL FILL IT WITH POTTING SOIL AND TURN IT INTO A BIG PLANTER).
    THANKS ALL

     VAN



  P.S. I will post any updates as they occur.
[/quote]

Easy there VAN, if my mom see's that she want to do it to one of ours!
By the way we do appreciate the updates! Seems many times after all the posts ideas and solutions, we never hear the results! Shoot most times we never hear back from the poster at all! So mark my words WE DO APPRECIATE FOLLOW UP REPORTS!  There ya have it my totally honest opinion! And if ya take it and add $2.00 it might buy a cup of coffee!

 Hey it's the least I could do since I dragged every one into this mess .The most important as well as expensive lesson learned here for me could well have been avoided simply had I not been so overly wound up about jumping on to the first rig I spotted with out doing the proper amount of research needed to make sure I got the best bang for the buck.This I accept full responsability for .This board provided ample advice and warning as to buying a suitable shell for conversion in the posts that were already posted here.although this has cost me considerable exspense ,hardship and mental anguish and being a newbie in the wonderful world of converted buses I feel an obligation to share this experience now with any new prospective BN's Do not buy with emotion ,but buy armed with confidence gained thru the knowledge and experience that can be obtained by fully reserching the threads posted on this as well as other boards available to you .Most folks here have paided the price to get into busing, some have been down this road I have traveled before me and had I heeded the warnings it might have saved me alot of grief(lesson well learned)and exspense.The end result remains the same ,how you choose to get there is up to you ! There I did my moral Obligation in passing on advice to those comin in behind me,NUFF SAID.


   Still a Newbie but learning.

            VAN

Now Van not to pour salt in the wound but, when you were in Carmi you were less than 3 hrs from me! Or an hr and a half from Carl "FRITZ" Raines a good friend of mine and old time bus company owner. Or 45 mins from Harry Piper another old time bus hand who has tons of used buses and parts, not to mention much knowledge about them.  FWIW!  It's always a good thing to ask around and see if anyone knows someone in an area, before buying to. ;D  BK  ;D

I agree ,this is what I am saying ,there are so many folks available to help out that can save you the exspense of tryin to go it alone.And here it comes"If only I had done my home work " I could have saved myself this grief and probably would have ended up with the right bus,and would be involved in transforming the interior. Instead here I am tryin to make up for it.In any event it all works out for the good in my case ,This has only mad me smarter and my resolve much stronger to get to where I should have been in the begining


   Van

Van, the engine could have been in good shape when you bought the bus and just had a bad radiator don't really know how to tell you this but reading your post most of the blame for the problems fall on you for getting the engine so hot and being that hot Fairchild is going to tell you to pull the liiners and replace the o rings not worth the gamble   have a great day and good luck

How about this,2 up dates in one day.Well met with Don Fairchild today had a very nice visit with him ,we looked over the engine he purchased from B&B.Well here comes the bad news first,we tracked grease all over the carpet in the town house after we were done inspecting the bus engine.Now the great news ,got the grease out of the carpet before momma got home.It's amazin how many uses GOJO natural orange has and what it can clean.Oh I forgot all about the engine which was the point of the update,it's just inncredible how pleased and satisfied you can be over simple things (if ya stop to smell the oranges,HEE HEE).Oh nuts I'm sorry keep forgeting about the engine , cyl block looked good only a little oxidation on a few cylinders which will easily clean up .Don Inspected  the cylinders and pistons and determined the course of action to be "put the new set of heads on it and drive it as is for a while, engine hadn't been overheated long enough ,the oil/water passage o-rings were still in decent shape.Heads are cracked indeed but this was probably caused by the cold water added to an already hot engine over at B&B and then again when we got back home.Thermostats turned out to be 190s which explains why it ran at about 190 comin from Carmi Ill .I will replace them with 170s .I'll pick up the replacement heads when don is done settin them up and get them back on(cuts and bruises should be healed up by then).I have had enough exitment for one day and am planning to pop open this bottle of DOM sittin in the cabinet ,or maybe I'll start with the case of hiney first (too many decisions) .Probably should find a good pull out MUI just to keep as a spare  down in one of the bays huh(you never know)


     almost back in the wind

               Van


P.S. Prayer Works  T.Y.J

EDITED UPDATE

Hi Van....glad you have Don Fairchild to be a great assistant....like having answer to your prayer. And also like what Busted Knuckle posted to help you and anyone to take it "one thing at time".

BK is always trying helping the bus nut to be at home in everything that transpired. That worth more than a cup of coffee, LOL. Many of us have never met BK & his family. I know there many others too trying their best to solve the problems and that is great.

We the bus nut on board can only help from our knowledge via keyboard...it not like being there to hear...to see...to smell...to use our hands to observe what is the problem. So it helps with picture but that is only one of many variables...better than nothing if the subject needs to be seen.

This is an added Caution (you may already known this rule of thumb) to anyone that having a steaming radiator that need water or coolant....either have engine run in idle mode before adding fluid to radiator...or...if the engine is already shut off and let it cool for at least an hour and then start & run engine before adding fluid.

BTW...no new or used buses purchase is ready to take on a journey without some problem...worst if purchaser is not familiarizes about bus's mechanical & electrical in general.

I try to carry at least 5 gallon of water container with sprout or funnel, 60 pounds of tools of your choices with bus manual, 2 gallons of motor oil, trans oil, 50 ft of 12 gage THHN wire with a roll of electrical tape, large sheet of card board/folded thin to stored for emergencies to crawling under, few short pieces of 2x4s, 8s, 4x4s, at least 15 ton bottle jack...a bottle of orange hand cleaner with rags and road service insurance when ever traveling with the bus. I know I bound to miss something else.

Keep us posted. We (at least I do) always learning some new things and how we can make be more servant to the needs.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry