Ok back in April we went over this in depth. I was told I needed to go with #6 Wire with different colors for different connections.
To make a short stay I have got 100 foot of the #6 wire but it is black, white and bare.
Can I get away with painting the sections that need to be different colors? I remember some thing about taping them with colored tape. I was wondering if I could paint them and then I would make sure the tape did not come off when pulling them.
If I can paint it i am not expecting the paint job to look nice just leave enough color to mark the wires. What kind of paint should I use that will not harm the cover of the wire. It this a bad idea? Should I just pull the wires and then use a meter to ID each of them and put the tape on them then?
And I think it was definite that they be in closed in conduit? Is that correct or can they be run with it?
I have used 6 gauge black wire for all the 6 gauge wiring in a bus. I apply colored electrical tape to 6" of each end or a wire. Red, green, and white tape are used. Jack
If I really wanted to ruin my day, I would run all wires in one color and then try to figure them out later :D Much better to tape as you go.
The best thing to do like Jack says is use colored electrical tape (phase tape) check this link for insight into this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_tape
HTH Jim
Oh come on, where's the adventurous spirit these days! Just use all black and to identify which one is which, spark 'em all to ground. The hot ones will identify themselves!!!
:)
Well thats another way to do it, lots more exciting. Is the proper procedure for doing that covered in the NEC ???
Quote from: Bob Gil on July 06, 2008, 01:02:08 PM
...
Can I get away with painting the sections that need to be different colors? I remember some thing about taping them with colored tape. I was wondering if I could paint them and then I would make sure the tape did not come off when pulling them.
If I can paint it i am not expecting the paint job to look nice just leave enough color to mark the wires. What kind of paint should I use that will not harm the cover of the wire. It this a bad idea? Should I just pull the wires and then use a meter to ID each of them and put the tape on them then?
NEC Article 210.5(c) says simply that "Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points. The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved
means."
Black itself is an appropriate color for one hot wire, so you will only need to tape the other one -- use red.
"Ungrounded conductor" means your two hot wires. The "Grounded Conductor," AKA the "neutral," must, according to article 200.7(a), have
(1) A conductor with continuous white or gray covering
(2) A conductor with three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation
or
(3) A marking of white or gray color at the termination
Use the white wire for the neutral.
Lastly, the "Grounding Conductor," aka the "ground," must, according to article 250.119, be either bare or have a continuous outer sheath that is green (paint doesn't qualify) or green with yellow stripe(s) if it is #6 or smaller. So you will have to strip all the black insulation off the #6 ground (or you said you have bare wire -- use that). For conductors larger than #6, you are permitted to identify the conductor, according to 250.119(a)2, by
a. Stripping the insulation or covering from the entire exposed length
b. Coloring the insulation or covering green at the termination
c. Marking the insulation or covering with green tape or green adhesive labels at the termination
Quote
And I think it was definite that they be in closed in conduit? Is that correct or can they be run with it?
Yes, they must be in conduit or raceway. All the conductors must run together.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: JackConrad on July 06, 2008, 02:55:54 PM
I have used 6 gauge black wire for all the 6 gauge wiring in a bus. I apply colored electrical tape to 6" of each end or a wire. Red, green, and white tape are used.
Jack, the NEC does not allow green tape to identify ground on #6. You either need to use bare wire, or wire that is insulated for its entire length with green (with or without one or more yellow stripe). If all you have is black #6, you need to strip it the whole length.
The rules change for wire larger than #6, where you are now permitted to tape at all accessible points.
Code section is 250.119.
FWIW.
-Sean
Quote from: Sean on July 06, 2008, 09:55:37 PM
Jack, the NEC does not allow green tape to identify ground on #6. You either need to use bare wire, or wire that is insulated for its entire length with green (with or without one or more yellow stripe). If all you have is black #6, you need to strip it the whole length.
The rules change for wire larger than #6, where you are now permitted to tape at all accessible points.
Code section is 250.119.
For the most part the NEC is based on common sense. But this point of it leaves me scratching my head wondering what their reasoning for allowing simple marking of ends on hot and neutral, but not ground (unless heavier than #6). Personally, if for whatever reason I was exposed to a midsection of a wiring run, I would much rather be certain of which ones were hot than which one was ground. Then to compound the oddity, to make it ok to just tag the ends on larger wiring (higher power circuits) but not ok on lower power circuits.
My bewilderment doesn't matter, it is still the code, but it is curious what their reasoning was with this part.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on July 07, 2008, 07:58:58 AM
Quote from: Sean on July 06, 2008, 09:55:37 PM
Jack, the NEC does not allow green tape to identify ground on #6. You either need to use bare wire, or wire that is insulated for its entire length with green (with or without one or more yellow stripe). If all you have is black #6, you need to strip it the whole length.
The rules change for wire larger than #6, where you are now permitted to tape at all accessible points.
Code section is 250.119.
For the most part the NEC is based on common sense. But this point of it leaves me scratching my head wondering what their reasoning for allowing simple marking of ends on hot and neutral, but not ground (unless heavier than #6). Personally, if for whatever reason I was exposed to a midsection of a wiring run, I would much rather be certain of which ones were hot than which one was ground. Then to compound the oddity, to make it ok to just tag the ends on larger wiring (higher power circuits) but not ok on lower power circuits.
My bewilderment doesn't matter, it is still the code, but it is curious what their reasoning was with this part.
The main reason is that wire over #6 is not commonly available in colors. Also, the code permits the ground wire to be one size less than the circuit conductors. Thus with #6 wires, you can use a #8 ground. The ground wire only carries current in a fault condition. I can't cite the section right now but I believe that is correct.
Len
Thanks Sean.
That was what I was thinking. I was just thinking if I could paint the wires I needed to be red I could just pull them all Thur a section of NM conduit and then cut it where I needed it cut and not have to try to pull it around the curves and corners. I don't think I have to have any 90 degree cornres in the middle of it.
Now I need to find some 1 inch conduit. Home depot only has up to 3/4.
Then how are you all conect the inlet to the conduit? The inlet plug I have has a cap on the back like you would have for the flexible wire. I have not figured out how to tie it to the conduit.
It's almost like every thing is a secret and the parts or not to be gotten by us normal guys. But if you want $1000.00 worth of one item things change real fast.
I'm reasonably certain that Home Depot carries at least PVC conduit in 1" and larger. I don't why PVC properly secured wouldn't work just fine.
Yes they handle the rigid stuff I was trying to get the NM flexiable stuffI think I could make it work with only fittings on the ends, and afix it to the bottom of the bus.
Still have not figured how to attach it to the inlet yet. It is just like this plug on the back.
Quote from: Bob Gil on July 07, 2008, 04:15:38 PM
... I was just thinking if I could paint the wires I needed to be red I could just pull them all Thur a section of NM conduit and then cut it where I needed it cut and not have to try to pull it around the curves and corners. I don't think I have to have any 90 degree cornres in the middle of it.
Bob, you won't need to pre-identify all the wires before the pull. Since you already have bare and white, you'll only have to distinguish between the two blacks. That's easy: after the wires are all pulled into place, pick one of the two black wires and connect it temporarily at one end to the white wire -- you can even just jam a bent paper clip into each end for this step. Then go to the other end and put your multimeter on the Ohms or continuity setting, and test each black wire against the white wire. One of them will show a short, and the other will show an open, and now you know which black wire is which. Put 6" or so of red tape on each end of the black wire that showed as "open."
Quote
Then how are you all conect the inlet to the conduit? The inlet plug I have has a cap on the back like you would have for the flexible wire. I have not figured out how to tie it to the conduit.
OK, this one I don't understand. The fitting you showed in the picture is for an in-line type of connector. For the coach inlet, you will need to use a "bulkhead" type connector, which has a flange and some mounting holes to mount it into whatever panel or sidewall you're planning to locate it. The back of this type of plug (technically known as a "motor base") is an open frame -- it should not have any type of plastic cover over it.
The motor base can be mounted in a junction box. However, if you plan to through-mount it in the side of the coach, you'll need to improvise something behind it as an enclosure. On our coach, we just had a roughly 6" by 6" by 6" box welded up and bolted onto the steel where the mounting hole is punched through. A KO was then punched into this box with a standard Greenlee KO punch to accept the conduit fitting. KO punches for that size are huge and pricey -- to just make one knock-out, you could rent it or even just ask an electrician with the right tools to do it for you.
If the connector you have does not have mounting flanges, you'll have to do something completely different. Namely, transition at a junction box from your #6 THHN wires to a short length or "pigtail" of 6/4 SO cord. The type of connector you have pictured is intended to be used on such cord. The stranding on the SO is much finer, making the whole assembly much more flexible.
HTH,
-Sean
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on July 07, 2008, 07:58:58 AM
For the most part the NEC is based on common sense. But this point of it leaves me scratching my head wondering what their reasoning for allowing simple marking of ends on hot and neutral, but not ground (unless heavier than #6). Personally, if for whatever reason I was exposed to a midsection of a wiring run, I would much rather be certain of which ones were hot than which one was ground. Then to compound the oddity, to make it ok to just tag the ends on larger wiring (higher power circuits) but not ok on lower power circuits.
My bewilderment doesn't matter, it is still the code, but it is curious what their reasoning was with this part.
The code treats all current-carrying conductors the same (more or less -- there are some special considerations for "grounded" conductors, which is what the code calls the neutral). Neutral is considered a current-carrying conductor for code purposes. The ground, however, is a safety item and is treated specially.
The intent of continuous special identification for the ground is simply to prevent mistakes. In many places, including this section, the code mandates that these safety considerations be implemented when materials to do so are commonly available. Properly identified ground wire is readily available in wire gauges up to #6.
As Len has pointed out, wire gauges above #6 are commonly only available with black insulation, and so the code makes an exemption above this size. Moreover, it is much less likely that untrained/unqualified individuals will be working on systems wired with wire gauges above #6, due not only to the currents generally involved, but also the special tools normally needed above this size.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
This is what I have I posted the other picture to show what the back was like as I did not have a picture of the back of this one.
Then I assume it is OK to run a short section of the SO wire from this connector to a junction box?
I was thinking that I could not use the SO.
How long of a pig tail is acceptable? would 12-24 inches be OK?
Quote from: Sean on July 07, 2008, 11:36:54 PM
The intent of continuous special identification for the ground is simply to prevent mistakes.
That's the thing that seems odd to me about this section. It just seems so much more important to me to know a hot wire and which phase it is at all points along its path than to know the ground wire at all points. A mistake with a hot wire is usually much worse than a mistake with a ground wire.
Oh well, like I said, it is the code and my puzzlement with this point makes no difference.
Quote from: Bob Gil on July 08, 2008, 12:34:12 AM
...
Then I assume it is OK to run a short section of the SO wire from this connector to a junction box?
The SO is only allowed if the connector hangs loose, as a "pendant." Now I see your connector does have a mounting flange, and I am assuming you intend to mount it somehow on the side of the coach or in a panel. In that case, you are correct: SO can not be used.
Understand that the connector you have there is really a marine item, and the rules are very different on boats (which are not covered under the NEC, but, rather, a whole separate litany of codes and guidelines such as those promulgated by the ABYC). So it likely has that shroud on the back for connection with marine cable.
For your application, you will want to mount it in an enclosed junction box of some sort. In which case, you can simply discard the plastic shroud. Tie your #6 THHN wires directly to the connector -- the connections are compression-fit with set screws.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on July 08, 2008, 07:43:49 AM
... A mistake with a hot wire is usually much worse than a mistake with a ground wire.
Actually, this is a common misconception.
The reality is that the ground system is there precisely to ensure that "mistakes" (or failures) in any of the other wires result in the fault current being carried safely away immediately.
"Mistakes" in hot wires, such as open circuits, are easy to detect, because the device or receptacle usually will not work. So the installer and/or end user will know something is wrong. By contrast, a mistake, such as an open, in the ground is completely undetectable in normal use, and only shows up when problems with the other wires arise, possibly with deadly consequence.
As such, the code considers the safety ground to be the single most important conductor. With it, shorts to frame and the like result in immediate grounding of the fault current and resulting circuit interruption (from fuse or breaker). Without it, fault current is likely to find its way to ground through the next human to touch the appliance.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on July 08, 2008, 07:43:49 AM
Quote from: Sean on July 07, 2008, 11:36:54 PM
The intent of continuous special identification for the ground is simply to prevent mistakes.
That's the thing that seems odd to me about this section. It just seems so much more important to me to know a hot wire and which phase it is at all points along its path than to know the ground wire at all points. A mistake with a hot wire is usually much worse than a mistake with a ground wire.
Oh well, like I said, it is the code and my puzzlement with this point makes no difference.
Mike,
The ground is actually called a "Safety" ground. It is there to CYA if something goes wrong in the other 3 wires. It is suppose to carry the current back to the main box and then to ground. That's why you do not want the ground or the neutral to be connected to the bus body in any way. If it was, then when you, as the conductor touched the body, you would be the best circuit completion to earth.. probably not a good thing.
Humans make a much better circuit than copper.
Dallas
Yes, I understand and agree with the importance of the safety ground. I agree that open grounds are stealthier than open hot wires. I even agree that it is the most important wire in the lot. But my curiousity is merely over why the NEC considers the identification of hot wires mid run to be less important than identification of the safety ground midrun. To me this would be analagous to only requiring flamabile liquid tanker trucks to have a small warning sign near the inlet/outlet pipes, but requiring water tanks to be labeled "water" all over the tank so that somebody needing water could easily find it. ;D
In my perfect world ;D , all wire runs would use the proper color wire for each conductor on the whole run. But I know that in real practice, especially on the heavy wires this isn't always possible. I'm just amazed that the NEC mandates continous identification of the safety ground but not the hot wires.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on July 08, 2008, 11:08:28 AM
... But my curiousity is merely over why the NEC considers the identification of hot wires mid run to be less important than identification of the safety ground midrun.
It doesn't -- the safety ground must be green, and all hot wires must be some other color. So you can easily tell which wires are "hot" -- all the ones that are not green or bare. The only issue is telling the hot wires apart from each other, which, from a code/safety standpoint, is irrelevant -- they are all considered to be equally dangerous.
Note that the "neutral" wire is considered hot for code and safety purposes. That's because it carries current. If one end of the neutral is grounded (as is required by code), and you cut the neutral someplace, you now have two ends, one of which is at ground potential, but the other of which is at the exact same potential as any other hot wire in the circuit. Also note that "neutral" is an oddity -- most power circuits don't have one. Household and small appliance power is the exception. FWIW, the code also requires the "neutral" be identified for the full length whenever possible, but it does allow for termination-only marking.
Quote
In my perfect world ;D , all wire runs would use the proper color wire for each conductor on the whole run.
That's the NFPA's "perfect world" too. But they do recognize that there are circumstances in the "real world" that makes this sort of perfection impractical. For example, often a circuit will be run for 240-volts, using two "hots" (usually red and black) and a safety ground. Some later time, when the circuit gets re-purposed for a 120-volt load, either the red or the black now needs to be re-tasked as "neutral." Without the code exemption, the electrician would have to rip out one or the other of those wires and replace it with a white one. In practice, anyone who has tried can tell you that, often, you can't simply remove and replace a single wire, and you end up having to yank the whole circuit and start over. So the code allows for this kind of re-purposing by using termination marking. Since the safety ground, however, is
mandatory in
all circuits, there is no need to allow for re-tasking of this wire.
And, as we have already discussed, in the real world wire is not available in all colors, especially above #6. But even in smaller gauges, wire is commonly available in black, red, blue, green, and white, whereas colors for three-phase, such as brown, orange, and yellow, while available, are much harder to come by.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Thanks Sean.
I guess I am back to the drawing board.
I will see if I can get a flange mount that will go to and box some where.
They sure do make it hard on a little man trying to get that kind of stuff. I have not found any thing other than the marine stuff that is like that. I guess I will keep looking and stop trying to buy any thing (like that $30.00 inlet) that I might not be able to use in the long run.
Quote from: Sean on July 08, 2008, 12:11:18 PM
For example, often a circuit will be run for 240-volts, using two "hots" (usually red and black) and a safety ground. Some later time, when the circuit gets re-purposed for a 120-volt load, either the red or the black now needs to be re-tasked as "neutral." Without the code exemption, the electrician would have to rip out one or the other of those wires and replace it with a white one. In practice, anyone who has tried can tell you that, often, you can't simply remove and replace a single wire, and you end up having to yank the whole circuit and start over. So the code allows for this kind of re-purposing by using termination marking. Since the safety ground, however, is mandatory in all circuits, there is no need to allow for re-tasking of this wire.
Thanks Sean. That makes sense and is what I was looking for, the common sense behind it.