Last week we made a bus trip from deep South Texas to Eastern Georgia for a wedding. We picked up family in Tyler and drove straight through to our destination with only a couple of rest stops and a fuel stop.
We were just 20 miles from our destination and passing through Sparta Georgia late on Thursday night when an old caddy with no license plates suddenly approached from a side street and sped up behind the bus and started flashing brights attempting to get us to stop. Of course we pressed forward and then the driver sped around us and started pumping his brakes and stopped in the right lane.
I pushed the throttle to the floor and went around the car on the left shoulder. The car then sped back to the rear and started the bright flashing again.
Seconds later he sped around us again and started the brake pumping routine again. I hit the left side of the road and made it around him once again.
He again sped around me (even with me attempting to block him) and proceeded ahead until he reached the bottom of a hill where he slowed and stayed in the right lane. As I approached to go around him on the left, he flipped a Starskey & Hutch sideways move to block passage.
I had to slow the bus and then went around on the far right, just missing the rear of his car. Had he slide the car evenly across the road I would have been forced to a stop or to ram his car.
My choice would have been to stop and take his life in protection of my family and passengers. The good lord was really watching out after us and the person that night because the fellow gave up and turned around and headed back to Sparta.
I was able to avoid killing this guy and also avoid ramming him. This was a very unnerving experience for the occupants of my bus that were awake at the time.
I felt much comfort knowing that I was armed and alert and already had thought through any such issues and survival actions while traveling via bus.
I highly recommend that all of you avoid Sparta Georgia at all costs. Additionally, I highly recommend that you keep a loaded firearm in an electronic safe within reach of your fingertips.
By the way, the person was alone, had no license plates on his car and looked to be a mid-twenties slender black male thug. I am sure glad that I did not have to kill this guy because it would have really put a damper on the wedding.
Have any of you ever experienced such and what did you do? Are you prepared?
Quote from: Greg Roberts on June 21, 2008, 04:20:22 PM
I am sure glad that I did not have to kill this guy because it would have really put a damper on the wedding.
Have any of you ever experienced such and what did you do? Are you prepared?
Quite a wake up call. You should always be prepared to do the work of the Lord. Glad you all are safe, that could have had a horrible ending for you.
Believe me. if you had been forced to harm (or kill) that dirtbag, I would only have felt badly for the trauma to you and your family. I have to wonder how many similar incidents we will hear about as the economy worsens.
I haven't owned a gun in over 30 years. Seems like now is the time to start re-thinking that.
I'm sure glad no one was injured. But that joker in the caddy will get his someday.
And yes, things will get worse. The poor economy is the cause in most cases. Some are just envious of what you have and want to take it from you.
Thanks for the warning Greg,
Paul
Is it just me, or is this story a little hard to take seriously?? I hate to doubt anybody, and I know about modern-day piracy on the high seas involving ships but, on the highway? This is the first I've heard of anything like this. Any of the "old stand-by regulars" care to comment here?
Dennis
Yeah a good yarn but I don;t buy it. Any self respecting Pirate would not have been doing that alone, as they would not have known how many were on board they would have to deal with.
where were you headed? I used to live 30 miles south of Sparta. I can attest that it is a rough town.
Marine Flare gun or rocket flares in the "Road" Safety kit.
( fits nicely out the toll window. )
Quote from: Hi yo silver on June 21, 2008, 06:47:21 PM
Is it just me, or is this story a little hard to take seriously?? I hate to doubt anybody, and I know about modern-day piracy on the high seas involving ships but, on the highway? This is the first I've heard of anything like this. Any of the "old stand-by regulars" care to comment here?
Dennis
>
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When I read this post all I could think about was what happened to me,
please read this and checkout the date= http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/5795.html
I too was ready to kill this guy.
Praise the Lord!
That was close call....it could have been worse.
No plate is a possible stolen car and didn't mind car damage from trying to stop you to rob or whatever.
BTW...Sparta. Ga is small village of about 1500. 84% black and 15% white.
http://www.spartageorgia.com/local/cityinfo.html
I would never try to go through a strange town and road after dark if possible.
This is the time to have a very strong bumper on front of bus to be ready in case of blocking.
It going to get worse as economy worsens.
Likewise what other posted have said.
Perhaps we need to thrive on changing our planning goal to take longer time getting to wherever and day time interstate traveling as much as possible.
Have all baggage doors lock as well.
I wonder if using a flash on camera to pretend taking photos of them would ward them off.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
Did you call 911 when this was going on? Whatever it is, it seems it could not hurt to have police in route .
About 9-1-1...I was thinking about calling 9-1-1 but what if area's phone number from another state? Link to answer:
Look for heading with "Locating callers automatically"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-1-1
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
I don't know whether or not the story is true, but for me the idea that every citizen should have "a loaded firearm.....within reach of your fingertips" is ten thousand times more frightening than the idea of coming across a rogue criminal who wishes me harm. Then claiming that killing said criminal is somehow doing the "work of the Lord" just takes it beyond bizarre.
I guess I'm just lucky that I live in a civilised country.
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on June 22, 2008, 01:53:54 AM
I don't know whether or not the story is true, but for me the idea that every citizen should have "a loaded firearm.....within reach of your fingertips" is ten thousand times more frightening than the idea of coming across a rogue criminal who wishes me harm. Then claiming that killing said criminal is somehow doing the "work of the Lord" just takes it beyond bizarre.
I guess I'm just lucky that I live in a civilised country.
Jeremy
I guess in a "civilized" country only the criminals have guns, but hey, whatever floats your boat. I prefer for the police to arrive to find me still alive, not to show up and try to figure out who to notify that they are beginning an investigation into my untimely death.
And yes, such things do happen... I know several friends who have had people jump into the back of their work van at a stop light and grab what they can.
And it has little to do with a "poor economy." There are very few people who commit criminal acts because of economic circumstance. They turn to crime because that is who they are. There is no difference between the guy who mugs people in an alley and the CEO of Enron except the clothes they are wearing and the attorney they can afford. They both think they are entitled to other peoples money and that the rules of society don't apply to them. It is all about a little thing called "character."
When it come to protecting my famile "Better To Be Judged By 12 Than Carried By 6". Jack
Quote from: ktmossman on June 22, 2008, 04:57:21 AM
I guess in a "civilized" country only the criminals have guns
No. In a civilised country the criminals DON'T have guns, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO GUNS! Not even our police carry guns, and it's their job to deal with criminals.
Oddly enough, we don't have high school massacres and the like either, but I'm sure that must be a coincidence.
Jeremy
Criminals don't have any concern for others and will do any things or ways to harm other person rights.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20041017/ai_n12762405/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
Quote from: Jeremy on June 22, 2008, 05:45:43 AM
Quote from: ktmossman on June 22, 2008, 04:57:21 AM
I guess in a "civilized" country only the criminals have guns
No. In a civilised country the criminals DON'T have guns, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO GUNS! Not even our police carry guns, and it's their job to deal with criminals.
Oddly enough, we don't have high school massacres and the like either, but I'm sure that must be a coincidence.
Jeremy
Hmm, Then England must not be civilized.
Maybe we should discuss the gangs in Birmingham, the nut cases in Dublane, any other gang related activity in any place in the U.S. or G.B. that you care to mention.
Murder statistics in Britain don't include manslaughter, unlike the U. S. where everything is fair game.
Here are a couple of interesting statistics...
In 1981 the U. S. murder rate was nine times higher than that of England.
In 1995 the murder rate difference was six times higher.
In 2002 it was less than 3.5 times higher.
I didn't bother looking to see if it converged even more in the last few years.
Taken from Britain's "Telegraph", 05-01-03:
According to a UN survey from last month, England and Wales now have the highest crime rate of the world's 20 leading nations. One can query the methodology of the survey while still recognising the peculiar genius by which British crime policy has wound up with every indicator going haywire - draconian gun control plus vastly increased gun violence plus stratospheric property crime.You must live in a very protected, safe setting. I feel sorry for you, when the worst happens, and it will, how will you defend yourself? Call the police? by the time they arrive, the crime will have been committed and the only ones left in the area will be the victims... Some of whom may not be able to speak because they could be critically dead.
Historically, a populace that allows itself to be disarmed has also lost it's will to survive. There was a time, not too long ago, when many, many, many thousands of surplus French Military rifles were being exported by France to dealers around the world, Many of the advertisements by the dealers stated something on the order of, " For Sale Cheap! French Army Rifles... only Dropped ONCE!"
OK, As much as I respect England, I just cannot abide someone who is so willing to give up their ability to defend themselves.
Off my soap box now,
Dallas
Jeremy, our country was not founded by the cream of society. People in other countrys that had soft cushy lives did not give them up and head for the new world. This is our heritage, good and bad.
It is rumored that during WWII the Japanese, would not invade the west coast of the US becuse Americans were so heavily armed. If this were different, we might not be communicating like this becuse I would be speaking Japanese and you would be speaking GERMAN. Any issues past that time become irrelevant.
We owe our independance to the French, who we love to bash. During the revolutionary war they not only saved us with large amounts of cash, but they sent soldiers to fight and die on our soil. They get a bad rap form us.
I grew up around guns, my dad was a safety instructor, and I'm a great shot. But I agree with Jeremy. I just don't think it makes sense in today's world for everyone to have guns. Kind of like I don't think it makes sense for radical islamic militants to have nukes.
I am amazed at the intensity of folks that feel they need to have deadly force in their homes. It may be now that since everyone who wants one has a gun, but it might be nice if noe had them.
Bring on the flames
I whole heartedly agree, I do not think everyone should have guns. In particular people with bad intentions, criminal records, violent tempers, drinking, drugging problems, no reguard for other peoples rights, just plain old bullies.
Until that day I'll keep one handy!!!
Quote from: Jeremy on June 22, 2008, 01:53:54 AM
I don't know whether or not the story is true, but for me the idea that every citizen should have "a loaded firearm.....within reach of your fingertips" is ten thousand times more frightening than the idea of coming across a rogue criminal who wishes me harm. Then claiming that killing said criminal is somehow doing the "work of the Lord" just takes it beyond bizarre.
I guess I'm just lucky that I live in a civilised country.
Jeremy
Quote from: http://uk.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUKPIC76241520080617LONDON (Reuters) - Two men were convicted on Tuesday of murdering an innocent schoolboy after they sprayed him with bullets from a submachine gun as he lay in his own bed, in a case of mistaken identity during a gang war.
Quote from: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4187915.eceGlasgow has been named Britain’s safest city in an international quality-of-life league table, despite being the murder capital of Europe.
Quote from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7446174.stmMs Dando, 37, was shot in the head on her doorstep in April 1999 in what the prosecution calls an "irrational" act.
Quote from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7466217.stmA 15-year-old who shot a man for "humiliating" him will be detained for at least six years, a court has ruled.
Quote from: http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Boy-16---arrested.4135695.jpA 16-YEAR-OLD boy was last night arrested on suspicion of murdering a convicted teenage drug dealer who was shot in the head.
And of course murder was happening long before guns were invented and still goes on today when a gun is not available. Knife crime is running rampant in the U.K.
Quote from: http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/06/22/scotland-is-one-of-world-s-worst-blackspots-for-knife-crime-78057-20616809/KNIFE thugs plaguing Scotland's streets are fuelling one of the highest murder rates in Europe.
Quote from: http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/letters/display.var.2350512.0.knife_crime_its_up_to_us.phpPolice minister Tony McNulty told Sky News: "There's nothing the Government can do to stop knife crime," adding, "it's in the hands of the public".
Quote from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2055866/Knife-crime-is-a-fact-of-life-for-teenagers.htmlKnife crime is a fact of life for teenagers
P.S. Jeremy, I do share your confusion over refering to it as "work of the Lord" though. I have killed many times in the service of my country and would kill again to protect my family or other helpless victim. I certainly don't consider it the "work of the Lord" but rather something to be repented of and something that I will never have to do again.
Jeremy,
Looks like your country is about 2 decades behind us. The main difference is that our country has not taken the weapons away from our law abiding citizens YET, (other than some large liberal metro areas) and I don't think it will ever happen, at least I pray not.
I feel sorry for your country in the future if things continue to go the way they seem to be going in that article that Sojourner posted. Looks like your law abiding citizens are going to be at the mercy of the criminals and they normally do not have much mercy.
As a retired law enforcement officer I firmly believe that the general (law abiding) population should be allowed to be armed. I can attest that growing up on the south side of Chicago I was the victim of more weapons offenses and the victim of more felony crimes as a civilian in 20 years than I was involved with in my 26 years of law enforcement in Wisconsin. The criminals will prey on the weak, the ones that are less likely to protect themselves, its their nature!
The facts prove that the concealed carry laws have lowered the person to person crime rate, (although the non personal property crimes do go up) That is a trade off I can accept, I would rather they steal my property than the life of one of my loved ones.
Jim
After reading the various post on the above subject I think that the ideas have gone in 2 different directions.
One for having a weapon and the other for not having a weapon. ???
Myself I always carried a loaded weapon when I am on a trip either in my GMC Buffalo or by my trusty Buick.
In this great state that I live in (Texas) we can carry a weapon in our vehicle's.
I hope that I never have a chance to use my weapon but if the need to use it happens I will be ready willing and able to do so.
Calling 911 isn't going to work when the person is trying to do you or your family harm.
Remember when seconds count the cop's are minutes away.
jlv ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW0-Cl100rc
;D ;D ;D
... What do you expect in a world that gave Yasser Arafat the Nobel Prize for PEACE.. ...
Its the Wild and Wooly West ALL OVER again, All OVER !
It will get Worse ya know...!
theres no ryme or reason,
Quote from: Sojourner on June 22, 2008, 06:03:58 AM
Criminals don't have any concern for others and will do any things or ways to harm other person rights.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20041017/ai_n12762405/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
I think this article debunks every statement that Jeremy makes, including school shootings and the only ones that do not have guns are the police. It is for certain that if the criminals want them they are redialy available.
Richard
Just a couple weeks ago I had an run in with a street thug. My wife and I were walking to our car from our Chiropractors' office on the sidewalk of an otherwise decent area. Two young men were walking the other way. As they got beside us one screamed something unintelligible right in my ear. I reacted and said just what I thought of them trying to scare me and my wife.
The other one, not the one that yelled, turned and started back toward us challenging me to do something about it. He had his arms locked at his side, fists clenched and face instantly flushed red, very bad body language. I was positioning myself between him and my wife and he kept coming as we were backing up. Funny thing though, when I unzipped my jacket and reached inside toward my shoulder he stopped in his tracks. End of confrontation.
You and your loved ones well being, your choice. Nice that we still have it, choice that is.
Jeremy, I would like to say first of all that a large portion of My family still lives in the UK. I listen all the time to the rhetoric about the gun culture in the USA. Funny enough a popular saying during WW2 was over sexed and over here. I would suggest that the per capita murder rate in the UK is far greater than the US. I intend to be armed to the death, as I have no intention of being set upon by some illiterate animal or have My family harmed period. As a retired member of the US armed forces I can assure that I have listened to the bleating of the anti gunners all of My life. I trust Myself but do not certainly plan waiting for a cop when I am in distress. Just My 2 cents worth, John
To make it simple, my thoughts are I'd rather have protection and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Greg ... Did he want to steal your bus or just get you to hit him for the insurance. Mind set...Buses are expensive...Rich people have good insurance. ...Cable
I just watched a show on reconstucting accidents and one of them involved an RV who claimed he stopped short because of a car pulling in front of him and hitting the brakes. the RV stopped and barely bumped the car but a lady behind him couldnt stop and the school bus behind her couldnt stop. the car in the middle was squashed bad and caught fire killing her and her son. as soon as the fire erupted the front car took off and disapeared. when they finally caught the guy they found he had been targeting RV's and high end coaches as they have the most insurance and or the most to lose and may just pay out cash to avoid the claims. this guy saw the fire and figured the police were going to come for sure so he didnt hang around. now he is hanging out at a prison for 20+ years for manslaughter. according to the stats it is very common in California although they say it is increasing in some other areas.
steve
It seems unlikely that some guy in a beater caddy with no plates was trying to run an insurance scam.
Gun control laws have NEVER prevented a criminal from acquiring a gun as, apparent by their occupation, they do not care about laws. The only thing gun control laws do is make sure there are easy victims for the predators to prey on. I am just waiting for of the victims of one of these school or workplace shootings to file a massive lawsuit against those who prevented them from adequately defending themselves.
I heard an interesting perspective the other day: When the nutcase that attacked the VT campus was standing in that room with a group of defenseless students lined up against the wall, working his way down the line shooting each of them in the head, if you had the opportunity to snap your fingers and instantly and magically place a gun in the hand of one of those students (who knew how to use it), would you?
Wow - lots of activitiy since my post this morning. I'm actually hugely impressed by the fact a number of people have obviously done quite a bit research and reading before replying; I suspect if I'd made my original 'uncivilised' implication on most US-based discussion boards I would be drowning in personal insults by now, or worse. Given the volume of replies and the obvious passion expressed I suspect there may be something rather Freudian about the attitude of middle-aged men to the loss of their guns!
Whilst I simply cannot buy the whole 'more guns make you safer' arguement I'm not about to go head-to-head with any of the assertions that have been made because I do recognise that I am in many ways unqualified to do so - there's the whole culture and background thing to start with, plus the fact that from what I've gathered in the past I'm a generation younger than the majority of the people on this board, which I'm sure make a big difference to attitudes on this kind of topic. Added to that is the fact that I've no experience of serving in the police or military, and have never known anyone who has been involved in any kind of violent crime. I guess my opinions are somewhat acedemic, and thus perhaps of little value to some of you.
Of all the comments made, I think it was Dallas' that struck me most as I realised I have no idea when it was that widespread gun ownership was outlawed in the UK. Whilst I obviously regard unarmed citizens as a good thing rather than a sign of weakness as Dallas believes, I'm sure it didn't seem so at the time to those British citizens who had their guns taken away; no doubt they all made the same anguished protestations that have been repeated today. I don't know how long ago that was, though, which doesn't reflect well on my knowledge of British history.
From an anthropological perspective the world undoubtably is slowly getting more civilised, even though there may be backward steps at times, such as the invention of chemical weapons or the election of George Bush. Looking back in time, the Incas and Aztecs thought they were civilised, but they also thought it was ok to make human sacrifices. The ancient Romans were convinced they were civilised, but thought nothing of throwing Christians to the lions. Britain obviously has a very long history, and in amongst inventing democracy, freeing the slaves and giving women the vote the Britiain decided to disarm it's citizenary. America obviously has a much shorter history and has done things in a different order - obviously same-sex mariages are seen as a much bigger priority than abolishing the death penalty or preventing kids from killing their classmates - but don't worry, you'll get there in time.
(Note: the previous sentence was written with tongue-in-cheek. Don't get upset).
Ok, being serious again, I do believe that in time laws will be passed to drastically reduce gun ownership in America, and I also believe that even the most fanatic NRA member knows deep down that it is the right thing to do. I understand that it's an immense cultural change and that millions of people will kick and scream that it's against the constitutional right to arm bears and all that, but it will happen at some point in the next few decades, simply because that is the way societies entropy and the world advances.
It is absolutely the case that criminals will always seek weapons with which to do criminal things - this of course happens in Britain just as much as anywhere else. The point of my original comment about being scared of every citizen having access to a gun is absolutely genuine though - personally I'd far rather take the risk of getting caught up with gangsters robbing a bank than know that all my mild-mannered neighbours have got guns in their houses, just waiting to be used in a rampage when said neighbours get fired from their jobs, or find their wives having affairs, or the gun is found by the neighbours' disturbed son and get taken to school to sort out his classmates, or to the local convienence store when he needs some drug money.
Bad things can will happen with guns bought for good reasons, and those people who bought the gun for good reasons can display scarey attitudes as well - such as flipping straight into a 'shoot first, ask questions later' mindset when a black guy in an old car tries to get him to stop his bus
Jeremy
Jeremy, I respectfully disagree with most of what you said, I didn't realize that a monarchy had invented democracy, it's quite possible but somewhat controvercial that a democracy could involve a king or a queen. I also wonder if the criminals lined up to turn in their weapons when the government ordered them to do so. Another valid point that was brought up was the degree of per capita crime in england, seems to be quite a bit of it for a country that has evolved to that point, I have many friends in england and they seem to feel that crime is very high and are feeling a level of frustration at the inability of the police to actively react to a crime in progress because they seem to be the only unarmed participants on the scene.
Strictly speaking I think the ancient Greeks are generally credited with having invented democracy, but Britain had the first properly constituted Parliament, the model of which is now used worldwide. The monarcy is head of state, which isn't a political post and therefore not in conflict. In reality of course the monarcy has no meaningful power at all and is just a device for extracting money from American and Japanese tourists.
I can't comment on the per capita crime figures you mention of course because I've no idea as to their source or voracity. Statistics can created to support any view you wish to create, but having having to resort to this approach is usually a sure sign of having already lost the arguement on principles. More importantly in this case, it also demonstrates that you've completely missed the point I was making.
What would actually be interesting is whether anyone can find any news stories, research studies or any other references suggesting that the British people want the right to bear arms, or that our police should do so. That should keep you Googling for a while
Jeremy
I am such a strong believer I don't where to start and when to stop. I'll jump into the ring. Most already know how I feel about this anyways.
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One of the best arguments for guns I've read. Makes a logical argument without the use of the 2nd amendment:
Why the gun is civilization.
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com/2007/03/why-gun-is-civilization.html
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Should Christians have guns?
http://www.geocities.com/mikearion/christiansandguns.html
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POLICE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTION OF INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS.
U.S. Supreme Court
Braswell V. Braswell, 410S.E.2D 897, 901 (NC 1991)
"Fundamental Principle of American Law that a Government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to ANY individual citizen, and therefore, there is no liability for the failure to furnish police protection to specific individuals".
Meaning - individuals have no right to police protection under the federal Constitution. The police exist ONLY to perform the general duties of (a) deterring crime and (b) investigating a crime AFTER one has been committed. Each individual is legally required to defend themselves and their families.
The reason for the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
Quotes from those who wrote the Constitution;
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind.
Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
Thomas Jefferson -1785
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"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun". Patrick Henry
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"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials". -
George Mason, June 16, 1788
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The Virginia Constitution - Article 1, Section 13
That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.....
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The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and
to individuals."
- President James Monroe, Nov. 16, 1818 message to the U.S. House and Senate. [Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, November 17th, 1818.]
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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his script; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." - JESUS - Luke 22;36
Source:
http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/editorials/discuss_mondays_editorials_31.html
I was wondering. Do you think that the presence of a monarchy, even the vestiges of one, implies the tendency of a population to be subjugated? Why would a modern country give honor in any way to the offspring of what amounts to a criminal dynasty? Shouldn't these parasites be forced to return their ill gotten wealth and told to go out and work? The concept of royalty and nobility is certainly merely the product of brutish force. Why would the people of England continue to treat Lizzy Windsor as if she were even a particularly decent person, forget about something special?
Wow, that kind of harsh, even in our country we have tourist attractions, we have the grand canyon, the statue of liberty, paris hilton, etc. I have no problem with the english having the queen. lol
Everyone has their own opinion on everything!
I am so happy to have choices living in the great USA.
When our founding fathers many years ago, drafted what they thought was a great way to govern. Taken of course from what was learned from the monarchy in England.
I have no problem with the brits living the way they do, that is their choice. And that choice has been around for a very long time.
No country has a perfect plan. But the way this country was formed was based on experience from other cultures. It's pretty good, but far from perfect. Man has limits on what he is able to accomplish on this earth. But when we leave here to go to a better place, it will then be perfect.
"That's all I have to say about that."
Smiles to my friends across the pond.
Paul
American Policeman...."Stop or I'll shoot!"
British Policeman........"Halt or I shall say Halt again!"
:D
"Bad things can will happen with guns bought for good reasons, . . . "
If that is your basis for taking guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, it is a very small step to:
- Knives can hurt people, so outlaw all knives.
- same for hammers, axes, chainsaws, ball bats, golf clubs, etc.
- what about cars & buses? Since they pose a threat if misused, they too must be outlawed.
Stop & think!
Punish the cause, NOT the symptom!
When they passed a concealed carry law in FL, the carjackings almost completely stopped when the thugs realized there was a good chance they would get shot for trying such & so they went back to stealing stuff when the owner wasn't around.
I don't carry for many reasons, but I do like knowing that I could if I wanted to.
If some idiot wants to start shooting, I believe the possibility of concealed weapons is a bigger deterrant that the cops showing up after a call is made.
Great post, Laryn. I couldn't agree more!
Dennis
Barn Owl, I'll buy you a drink, of your choice, on our first meeting.
Ed
I am constantly reminded by My large extended family that We americans are a brutish lot. I am sure that the Brits are also convinced that spoons make people fat and pencils are the reason that I can not spill-sppel -sppel-spell. One of My cousins also constantly bad mouths George Bush and in all fairness also had a big dislike of Tony Blair. I have decided that the one thing that makes people all over the world dislike americans so much is simply that they are jealous. Give Me liberty or give Me death. I regret that I have only one life to give for My country, I think that was what an american told a british officer when given the chance to sell out His country. I can not fathom that someone would would give up their right of self defence. Beat Your swords into plowshares if You like but do not cry when You have to get up early to plow someone elses fields at the tip of a sword.. Good night all, John Lacey
All I would like to say is you guys have WAY too much time on your hands to type post like these over and over.
Before you know it, you'll be writing poems too!
Give it a break and get this board BACK to buses instead of guns! If you own them, use them! If you don't, then worry about the consequences then!
Now did I ever tell the story about the guy in an Eagle that just HAD to get in front of me on the interstate? He tried and tried! He just couldn't muster enough steam!
B S
Hi Jeremy not sure what years you grew up in but i had a 12 gauge at 8years old, had to go to the post office to get a license, then the good folk decided to to make it harder & left it up to the local bobby to see if i was fit to own a gun, not good, after a fight i got mine,i know lots off friends that did not, used to have a gun under the seat in the car just in case, got fed up with the do gooders runing my life moved to USA got consealed permit & going to keep it, i look on bbc news daily & all i see is stabbings & shootings. still you have lots off good busses over there, ps i still have no time for the queen, Darren.
Something aprapo, hot off the press today:
Subject: FW: Shooting in Butte, Montana
This story has a great ending and should be aired on the national media,
but they will not.
Shooting in Butte, Montana
Shotgun Pre-teen vs. Illegal Alien Home Invaders:
Butte, Montana November 5, 2007
Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two-story home. It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine. Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12 gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun. Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals. When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.
It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45 caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest. Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news........an 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended her home, and herself......against two murderous, illegal immigrants......and she wins, she is still alive.
Now that is Gun Control !
Thought for the day:
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'
Detective Leo Escandon Jr.
GS-6, Directorate of Emergency Services,
Police Operations
Civil Liaison AWOL Apprehension Section
Ed
Fake story still circulating on Internet
By John Grant Emeigh of The Montana Standard - 12/13/2007
A dramatic story about a shooting that supposedly happened in Butte last year is nothing more than an urban myth.
The bogus story has been circulating for the past year on Internet blogs and Web sites concerning a girl shooting two men who broke into her Butte home in November 2006.
According to the fabricated story, an 11-year-old Butte girl shot two "illegal aliens" with a shotgun after they broke into her home. The shooting supposedly took place on Nov. 5, 2006, according to Internet posts.
When asked about the authenticity of the events described in this story, Butte-Silver Bow Sheriff John Walsh told The Montana Standard in an earlier interview that his office never investigated such an incident.
"This never happened," Walsh said.
The story claims the girl shot and killed the two intruders while she was home alone. The story doesn't provide a street address or attribute the information to any official sources.
Walsh brushed off the story of an urban myth.
"It's amazing how these things get around," he said.
Numerous people from all over the United States have contacted The Montana Standard in the past year via e-mail or phone to verify if the story was true. The story is often given the headline "Home Invasion Gone Wrong." A recent search for this story on the Internet search engine Google.com returned with more than 400 hits.
The story has been printed as fact on some anti-gun control and anti-immigration Web sites. The phony story identifies the 11-year-old girl as Patricia Harrington, who shoots and kills the two "illegal aliens" identified as Ralphel Resindez and Enrico Garza.
Reporter John Grant Emeigh may be reached at john.emeigh@lee.net.
Amen to the rights to bear arm! Wherever we are home or bus home....to deter enemy.
Otherwise we are like other countries that no have protection control of their own family.
About school children carrying gun to school should be the parent responsible for their children action. It not children faults when parent don't teach them about real danger and teach them not to watch TV story of fake shooting and blood scene to cause children to think unrealistic or wrong doing. Parents are to pay for their under age children crime, Period.
Otherwise, there would be no children causing major crime.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
Quote from: Lin on June 22, 2008, 06:23:32 PM
I was wondering. Do you think that the presence of a monarchy, even the vestiges of one, implies the tendency of a population to be subjugated? Why would a modern country give honor in any way to the offspring of what amounts to a criminal dynasty? Shouldn't these parasites be forced to return their ill gotten wealth and told to go out and work? The concept of royalty and nobility is certainly merely the product of brutish force. Why would the people of England continue to treat Lizzy Windsor as if she were even a particularly decent person, forget about something special?
I personally agree that the monarchy is a complete anachronism today, and probably has been for the last century or so. I'm still in a minority thinking that, and even I don't feel particularly subjugated by Lizzy Windsor because I cannot think of any effect she has over my life, except perhaps consuming a few of my tax dollars. I have no doubt that Britain will lose it's monarchy at some point, possibly within my own lifetime. Our Royal family are also head of state of Australia of course, as well as several other countries. Australia has for many years been having periodic national surveys to measure the public's attitude towards the Queen, and very recently the Aussie government 'unofficially' announced that they were going to start the process towards becoming a republic.
By the way, another prediction of mine is that the sport of professional boxing will be banned within the foreseeable future. No doubt that will provoke a reaction too.
Lots of well-argued replies overnight. Good stuff
Jeremy
So Jeremy, what "civilized" action would you recommend to Greg and his passengers if he had been unarmed and the guy in the caddy had been successful in stopping him?
I think I know what I would do. Even if I was unarmed, I would still have the moron out gunned. A 15 ton slow moving easily aimed projectile might be more effective that a 125 grain fast moving one that requires a certain amount of dexterity to administer properly in a high pressure situation. Probably less legal ramifications too. There, is that more civilized?
Don 4107
Now with a new use for a bus, cleaning up the gene pool. ::)
Fascinating topic, from a Canadian perspective. Growing up, I never gave guns much thought. Hunters had them, farmers had them. And law enforcement folks, of course, but even our border guards are only now starting to be trained and become armed (go figure). I had occasion to target shoot on vacation a time or two, but that was the extent of my exposure to firearms. Most urban Canadians from my generation would have a similar experience, I suspect.
Gun control has been a fact of life in Canada for as long as I remember. Recent attempts (by a previous government) to register all long guns have not gone well, but hand guns, automatic and assault-type weapons are restricted to the point of being nearly impossible for a private citizen to legally own. The exceptions are collectors and hobby shooters, who must comply with strict regulations in the storage and transport of their weapons. Concealed carry, outside of law enforcement, is never legal.
But times are changing and now we are seeing a scary increase in gun violence on the streets of our larger cities. Most of the time, ethnic or drug gangsters are shooting at each other (which would be ok with me if they weren't doing the shooting in busy streets and parking lots; innocent bystanders are getting hit, too). Where I once thought nothing of walking downtown streets at night, it doesn't seem too smart these days.
So we have a situation where law abiding citizens are unarmed and the bad guys have all the guns. Making it against the law to posses a hand gun does not seem to impress the criminals; they have not been registering them for some reason. (Could it be because either their guns are stolen or smuggled?)
Anyway, in my early years of trucking some 30 years ago, I spent some time running into the US. Many American truckers thought we Canucks were nuts running unarmed (not counting the tire bat, of course) and that seemed like a strange attitude to me. Not that we had a choice, of course. An armed alien is not generally something you should welcome into your country. (The exception would be an armed alien with a valid hunting license from at least one US state, but the weapon would have to be legal at home, too, and it might be hard to convince the border folks you're going hunting with your truck and a load of beef). A close encounter at 3 a.m. at a rest stop just north of Detroit convinced me these American truckers just might know what they're talking about.
More recently, my US visits have been as a tourist and I look forward to exploring every state when we can. The bus is a big part of that plan, of course, but safety is something that has to be planned for. We have a 110 lb mutt, part Shepard, part malamute, part wolf for all I know. That seems like a good start. (Just don't tell the bad guys he's part wussy, too, but he does know how to bark at strangers!) Bear spray is always close at hand, as we regularly camp in and around the Canadian Rockies. (Mace is a restricted weapon in Canada, so I assume only criminals have it).
Never cared to hunt, but I could take the safety course, get the provincial gun permit and hunting license, a state hunting permit for birds or something, and be nice and legal. Pardon the pun, is that overkill?
Sorry for the long post, but this is a topic I've given a lot of thought to. As I said, your thoughts and opinions have been fascinating -- and from my view, very much on topic.
BTW, I kinda like the Queen. Not too sure about the man in waiting, though. (Now that might be off topic.)
Don
I have no reason not to believe this story as told to us, and this is a bus related topic, bad things happen "around the world", not just here!
Jeremy, my acestors left civilized Europe 200 years ago, to pursue what they thought would be a better life! We are a young Democratic Republic! Our Founding Fathers, farmers, businessmen, clergy, were for their time ahead of many European cultures when it came to Social Justice, Freedom and the Rights of Men, with the history of the European environment in those days government didn't have a sterling record for the treatment of the common man!
Our 2nd Amendment is a hot topic in this country and will be for many years to come. I don't forsee anytime in the near future that it will change!
To use backhanded insults to make your points is unwarranted and sad! To say that your statement is academic is puzzeling to me, do you mean we wouldn't or couldn't understand your methodology in explaining yourself or your stance?
When I say insults, I'm referring to several of your comments: "Given the volume of replies and the obvious passion expressed I suspect there may be something rather Freudian about the attitude of middle-aged men to the loss of their guns!"
or this: "Ok, being serious again, I do believe that in time laws will be passed to drastically reduce gun ownership in America, and I also believe that even the most fanatic NRA member knows deep down that it is the right thing to do."
I won't even mention the Bush bashing because it seems to be the "in" thing to do these days, if you wish to drop to that level!
Jeremy your country and its government is your business not mine! There are many great things the English have given this world and I'm glad to have you as friends!
I guess what I'm trying to say is this! Europe made it's mistakes for 1400 years, let us make ours we have much to learn and are not perfect. Our laws are just that "Ours"!
Gun control is much more complex than many think. Those that wish to outlaw guns certainly have good intentions. Whenever there is a gun crime, the logic says, "if there were no guns, this wouldn't have happened." I was raised as a city boy. We didn't hunt and, sorry to annoy anyone, I do not respect it as a sport. I do not think that cultivating the pleasure of killing is a great thing, nor am I comfortable with the thought that it is okay to cause pain, suffering and death for one's own benefit. As you may guess then, I am a vegetarian. If there is an issue of survival, that may change the perspective. I am not against all gun control. I do not think that minors should have access to guns outside of adult supervision. I do not think felons should be allowed to have guns. I do not think that those with potentially dangerous mental disorders should be allowed to have guns. I do not believe that citizens generally need to carry assault weapons (but I can certainly understand the concept that they would be fun to try). I suppose that if there were no guns in the country, I would not be for introducing them. Needless to say, there are a lot of guns around. It is just naive to think that banning all gun ownership will seriously reduce crime since, as has been said many times, criminals by definition do not obey laws. If one wanted, they could track all of the gun control laws and see if they have made any noticeable change in crime statistics. I would guess that they have not. So for the time being, until people become more civilized (you may remember Gandhi's answer when he was asked what he thought about Western Civilization, "I think it would be a good idea.") reasonable gun ownership is only prudent and fair.
Thank you, Pat. What is with this condescending notion that gun control = more civilized or abolishing the death penalty = more civilized, etc.? The fact that we haven't decided yet to publicly roll over and become the willing victims of predators is somehow uncivilized?!?
As far as the "academic" remark goes... (Let me preface this by saying that my first career was as a teach and school principal in Pre-K-12 schooling.) We have a saying in this country regarding academia and it holds largely true (and to a greater degree the farther into "academia" one goes): "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." The reason that alot of things remain "academic" is because that, when applied in the real world, they fail miserably. Gun control laws are a great example. They sound really great in the halls of academic theory, but put into practice in the real world (where there are real predators who don't care what the law says), all they do is create easy victims.
I personally believe that our gun laws in the US are FAR too restrictive. If one carries the logic that the 2nd Amendment confirms my right to defend myself just a bit further, I should be able to have whatever weapon is necessary to do so. So if a criminal is able to acquire a fully automatic weapon, why should I be legally held to a position of disadvantage in defending myself? And our Founding Fathers view was ever more "extreme." Their view of a citizen's right to arms was rooted in their belief that, should the govt. become non-responsive to the people, the citizens should have the means to overthrow the govt. and start over.
And one other point that I can't let slide... The notion that our Founding Fathers built this form of govt. on "lessons learned from the monarchy" is only true to the extent that the viewed the monarchy and Parlimentary systems as an abhorrent example of what NOT to do. If there was any other govt. at the time which they used as a model, it would have been France. But even that theory does not hold much water because the FF were resoundingly opposed to democracy as a form of govt. In fact, calling someone a "democrat" at the time was a serious insult, often resulting in a dueling challenge.
I would challenge anyone to find and read original writings (both instructional such as "the Federalist Papers" or personal such as journals) by the Founding Fathers. I guarantee that it would be an eye-opening experience. There was indeed a common source document that they drew from to craft our Constitution (in fact, early drafts were footnoted with references to this document). During the Constitutional Convention, when they would reach an impasse in the debate over a given point, they would actually adjourn to study this document for insight. It was common for over a hundred years that, when a Congressman proposed a new law, they would be challenged on the floor to provide support for that law from this document. The same source was also documented as foundation for Supreme Court decisions for over 150 years of our history.
My background is in law enforcement, I spent 25 years working from the ground up, from a role on the road to the position of a supervisor in maximum security prisons, when I retired I had 115 officers, 14 front line supervisors and over 500 segregation prisoners under my oversight, my education includes a degree in criminal justice and a degree in business administration, during my career with the state, I also taught classes in criminal justice at 2 local community colleges, I was also an instructor for the Michigan Department of Corrections at the training academy in Lansing, I also attended and completed the FBI academy satallite institute in Lansing and recieved federal certification, I've lectured on the 'use of force' policy at several state univercities in their criminal justice programs here in Michigan, based on that I can attest to the idea that gun control and the idea that crime can be controled using legislative procedures just does not work. The criminal element doesn't abide by the legislative mandates that are passed down to us, in actual application the opposite generally holds true, one shining example of the failure of gun control is Washington DC itself, it strictly prohibits and controls the guns within it's jurisdiction, yet has one of the highest crime rates in the country. I'm not advocating a return to the wild west where everyone has a gun strapped to their side but somewhere in the middle there has to be the happy medium where the people can own and properly use and carry as provided for in our constitution, I don't see England as a shining example of a gun control success story or any other country either, the key to long term crime control is to educate people, provide opportunity to earn a living wage, and bring back the American Dream of being able to improve your standard of living thru legal means. The principles that this country was founded on and the ideas that were behind it still are firmly in place, just somewhat muddied by our social concepts and interactions with each other. Thats my soap box and only my opinion.
"The Wild West" -- another myth. The per capita crime rate, the per capita firearms incident rate, the per capita death by firearm rate (excluding military action and native American conflicts) were lower than "modern society" (as best the researchers can determine.) In fact, if you exclude two or three brief (less that 2 year) periods in a couple specific locals (Tombstone, etc.) the "Wild West" was a very safe place to live as far as crimes and firearms go.
Another thought on the subject... I have been a student of various martial arts for a good number of years. From everyone that I have talked to in that environment (and my own personal experience), the presence of a firearm actually prevents conflicts from escalating to the point of violent action.
If I am confronted by a predator and I tell him that, should he continue this course of action, I am going to turn him into a human pretzel with the accompanying pain/bodily injury, he may or may not believe that I possess the ability and the willingness to do so. He is far more likely to test the theory, especially if he has a weapon of his own, be that a firearm, knife, crowbar, etc.
However, if, upon initial confrontation, he is looking down the barrel of a large caliber firearm, he is immediately convinced that I possess the ability and willingness to do him great bodily harm and far more likely to decide that he is not interested in pursuing this course of activity.
Quote from: Hi yo silver on June 21, 2008, 06:47:21 PM
Is it just me, or is this story a little hard to take seriously?? I hate to doubt anybody, and I know about modern-day piracy on the high seas involving ships but, on the highway? This is the first I've heard of anything like this. Any of the "old stand-by regulars" care to comment here?
Dennis
Sparta, as it turns out, is a very small dark, and rough town that appears to not have police on patrol at night (not sure about the daytime). You can certainly stick your head in the sand and not believe this very real and scary event and you may be just fine because odds are in your favor. But I strongly discourage all of you to avoid going through Sparta Georgia in the late dark hours of the night. I strongly recommend that all of you think and then re-think your travel plans so that your passage through any of these more rural areas is during daylight hours or not at all. I will never drive through Sparta again regardless of the time of day because the best thing all of us can do is be smart and avoid these sorts of conflicts. This is a lesson I have learned and I simply wanted to pass it along to all of you for your benefit (at least to those of you who are wise and wiley enough to accept the reality).
Quote from: tekebird on June 21, 2008, 06:54:26 PM
Yeah a good yarn but I don;t buy it. Any self respecting Pirate would not have been doing that alone, as they would not have known how many were on board they would have to deal with.
Self respecting? Are you kidding me? Do you really actually mean to say that a person with extremely low character and poor judgement (maybe even under the influence of chemicals) that would make the decision to perform such an act would actually have good judgement enough to use the logic you suggest? It is not a yarn and I do not appreciate you so flippantly suggesting that it is. It was a very scary and bad situation that could not have turned out better for us. This event put a real quiet spot in my extended family's trip because this was their first time to venture east of Shreveport, LA. I have no reason to get cross with you but I am telling the absolute honest truth just as it happened and my intent is for you guys to learn from my experience and avoid getting yourself in that situation. Simply put, don't go there or any place like it during dark hours. Even if you think this is a yarn I would at least encourage you to listen and take heed.
Quote from: buddydawg on June 21, 2008, 07:24:39 PM
where were you headed? I used to live 30 miles south of Sparta. I can attest that it is a rough town.
My destination was Sandersville and the wedding was in the Deepstep methodist church on the 14th. I told family and friends in the area about the event and all of them said that Sparta is considered a rough little town. I took a southern route to Millegeville and then cut up to I20 to avoid Saprta on the way home Sunday. Sandersville and Milledgeville both seem like nice respectable towns as compared to Sparta.
Quote from: Ednj on June 21, 2008, 07:53:48 PM
Quote from: Hi yo silver on June 21, 2008, 06:47:21 PM
Is it just me, or is this story a little hard to take seriously?? I hate to doubt anybody, and I know about modern-day piracy on the high seas involving ships but, on the highway? This is the first I've heard of anything like this. Any of the "old stand-by regulars" care to comment here?
Dennis
>
>
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This guy clearly was not trying to help and was also clearly not trying to have a wreck. He pressed his brakes hard to make me brake but then hit the throttle to avoid me hitting the rear of his car. When he flipped the car sideways in the road in front of my intended path he was clearly not trying to assist me. I think he may have been trying to force me to take a side street to get past him and that would have been en even worse situation. No. He was not trying to help and there was nothing wrong with my bus.
When I read this post all I could think about was what happened to me,
please read this and checkout the date= http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/5795.html
I too was ready to kill this guy.
Quote from: DrDave-Reloaded on June 21, 2008, 07:45:20 PM
Marine Flare gun or rocket flares in the "Road" Safety kit.
( fits nicely out the toll window. )
The last thing I wanted to do was provoke the guy by appearing to fire at him. That is not to say that I would not fire first in the right situation but I simply do not fire anything unless the sights are on the torso in a situation like this. By the way, by law I did have a right to protect my family and his final act of sliding his car sideways in my path almost lead to the final confrontation. Had he not flipped sideways as far as he did to the left side of the 2 lane, I would have had to pull the brake and take the action. As it were, I still had an exit from the situation and my action and his decision to move on in the opposite direction led to an ending with the person still alive.
Quote from: Sojourner on June 21, 2008, 08:05:06 PM
Praise the Lord!
That was close call....it could have been worse.
No plate is a possible stolen car and didn't mind car damage from trying to stop you to rob or whatever.
BTW...Sparta. Ga is small village of about 1500. 84% black and 15% white.
http://www.spartageorgia.com/local/cityinfo.html
I would never try to go through a strange town and road after dark if possible.
This is the time to have a very strong bumper on front of bus to be ready in case of blocking.
It going to get worse as economy worsens.
Likewise what other posted have said.
Perhaps we need to thrive on changing our planning goal to take longer time getting to wherever and day time interstate traveling as much as possible.
Have all baggage doors lock as well.
I wonder if using a flash on camera to pretend taking photos of them would ward them off.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
Jerry, you are right on target and have clearly got the message. The one thing I would worry about is camera flashing. In my mind that could be interpreted as muzzle blast. Of course that could cause the subject to flee in fear but it could also cause him to return fire. I don't know what the right answer is at this point because the delima is knowing when to pull and fire a gun. It certainly makes no sense to only wait until you or a loved one has taken a round. For me in this situation it came down to physical locations and access to a clear shot from the guy to me. In other words, when he passed me each time at a good clip he was moving too fast and on the opposite side of the car from me to get a really good shot at me. When he went sideways in the road he would have had to open a window and point a gun back behind the plane of his back because he slide too for to the left. This was the critical moment for me because of the exposure from all of the windows in the front of the bus. If the guy had been further to the right side of the road we both would have had clear shots at each other. I have to give the credit for our safety to the good lord that night.
Quote from: Jeremy on June 22, 2008, 01:53:54 AM
I don't know whether or not the story is true, but for me the idea that every citizen should have "a loaded firearm.....within reach of your fingertips" is ten thousand times more frightening than the idea of coming across a rogue criminal who wishes me harm. Then claiming that killing said criminal is somehow doing the "work of the Lord" just takes it beyond bizarre.
I guess I'm just lucky that I live in a civilised country.
Jeremy
I have been to the UK. Owned a home in Clydebank for a few years (of course the Scots have a complete different view of Brits). I know what the crime is like in the UK. Give me the USA and the hard earned freedoms that we have any day over the UK. The UK has historically been our brothers and I hope that continues. Financially we have supported the UK to the tune of Billions of US dollars especially since WWII. Each country has it's unique laws but, having lived in both countries, I can clearly say that the USA is much safer in most scenarios. I expect you really have not been exposed to the US other than Hollywood movies that most foreigners seem to think exemplifies the USA and you just really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the USA.
Quote from: ktmossman on June 22, 2008, 04:57:21 AM
Quote from: Jeremy on June 22, 2008, 01:53:54 AM
I don't know whether or not the story is true, but for me the idea that every citizen should have "a loaded firearm.....within reach of your fingertips" is ten thousand times more frightening than the idea of coming across a rogue criminal who wishes me harm. Then claiming that killing said criminal is somehow doing the "work of the Lord" just takes it beyond bizarre.
I guess I'm just lucky that I live in a civilised country.
Jeremy
I guess in a "civilized" country only the criminals have guns, but hey, whatever floats your boat. I prefer for the police to arrive to find me still alive, not to show up and try to figure out who to notify that they are beginning an investigation into my untimely death.
And yes, such things do happen... I know several friends who have had people jump into the back of their work van at a stop light and grab what they can.
And it has little to do with a "poor economy." There are very few people who commit criminal acts because of economic circumstance. They turn to crime because that is who they are. There is no difference between the guy who mugs people in an alley and the CEO of Enron except the clothes they are wearing and the attorney they can afford. They both think they are entitled to other peoples money and that the rules of society don't apply to them. It is all about a little thing called "character."
I think you are right on the money. It could be that we will see more issues as the economy gets worse but your point about character is on the money in any case.
Quote from: JackConrad on June 22, 2008, 05:36:10 AM
When it come to protecting my famile "Better To Be Judged By 12 Than Carried By 6". Jack
Jack,
Exactly. Doing the right thing may get one judged by 12 but any outcome is more acceptable than the alternative. I will protect my family and I will value their lives as well as others.
Quote from: Blacksheep on June 22, 2008, 08:08:13 PM
All I would like to say is you guys have WAY too much time on your hands to type post like these over and over.
Before you know it, you'll be writing poems too!
Give it a break and get this board BACK to buses instead of guns! If you own them, use them! If you don't, then worry about the consequences then!
Now did I ever tell the story about the guy in an Eagle that just HAD to get in front of me on the interstate? He tried and tried! He just couldn't muster enough steam!
B S
Give it a rest already ace.
I'm not the only one who knows who you are trying to provoke with the poem & eagle remarks. & don't even try to call it 'in good fun' - not when you know how it is received on their end. . . .
I also travel well armed. In over 30 years of RV ing I have pulled my gun on one person. He left when he looked down the barrell of a 357. Would I have shot him, YES, would I have been sorry that he made me do it, YES.
One other time while delivering newspapers I had 3 punk kinds trying to scare me by running up on my van and doing other things, I was able to get ahold of 911 and kept the kooks in sight while directing the cops to them. Three teenage kids, drunk trying to have fun. When cops had them under arrest I talked to the cops as well as the kids and they said they were just having fun. I then informed them that I would have used my 4000 lbs van as a wepon and they would have been having fun in the hospital or moruge.
Travel safe and be armed. Use gun control, both hands.
Ed
MCI 7
Quote from: roadrunnertex on June 22, 2008, 08:34:41 AM
After reading the various post on the above subject I think that the ideas have gone in 2 different directions.
One for having a weapon and the other for not having a weapon. ???
Myself I always carried a loaded weapon when I am on a trip either in my GMC Buffalo or by my trusty Buick.
In this great state that I live in (Texas) we can carry a weapon in our vehicle's.
I hope that I never have a chance to use my weapon but if the need to use it happens I will be ready willing and able to do so.
Calling 911 isn't going to work when the person is trying to do you or your family harm.
Remember when seconds count the cop's are minutes away.
jlv ::)
You speak the truth. In a situation like that a minute may as well be a decade because the primary responsibility for your protection does rest with each individual and then we have the police to enforce the laws (murder being a real possibility). My family and I will be protected because I choose to take responsibility. Can you imagine people blaming and suing the police because a family member was murdered and the police was not there for prevention?
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on June 22, 2008, 08:59:15 AM
Quote from: Sojourner on June 22, 2008, 06:03:58 AM
Criminals don't have any concern for others and will do any things or ways to harm other person rights.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20041017/ai_n12762405/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
I think this article debunks every statement that Jeremy makes, including school shootings and the only ones that do not have guns are the police. It is for certain that if the criminals want them they are redialy available.
Richard
Good article and a real eye opener too!
Awesome post with great information!
Quote from: Barn Owl on June 22, 2008, 06:00:20 PM
I am such a strong believer I don't where to start and when to stop. I'll jump into the ring. Most already know how I feel about this anyways.
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One of the best arguments for guns I've read. Makes a logical argument without the use of the 2nd amendment:
Why the gun is civilization.
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com/2007/03/why-gun-is-civilization.html
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Should Christians have guns?
http://www.geocities.com/mikearion/christiansandguns.html
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POLICE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTION OF INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS.
U.S. Supreme Court
Braswell V. Braswell, 410S.E.2D 897, 901 (NC 1991)
"Fundamental Principle of American Law that a Government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to ANY individual citizen, and therefore, there is no liability for the failure to furnish police protection to specific individuals".
Meaning - individuals have no right to police protection under the federal Constitution. The police exist ONLY to perform the general duties of (a) deterring crime and (b) investigating a crime AFTER one has been committed. Each individual is legally required to defend themselves and their families.
The reason for the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
Quotes from those who wrote the Constitution;
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind.
Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
Thomas Jefferson -1785
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"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun". Patrick Henry
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"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials". -
George Mason, June 16, 1788
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The Virginia Constitution - Article 1, Section 13
That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.....
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The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and
to individuals."
- President James Monroe, Nov. 16, 1818 message to the U.S. House and Senate. [Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, November 17th, 1818.]
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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his script; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." - JESUS - Luke 22;36
Source:
http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/editorials/discuss_mondays_editorials_31.html
I really dont know so I could be Wrong,, BUT, There were NO Guns on any of the Flights on 9-11...
All the Hijackers had were Box cutters..
Like i said, I dont know if any flights had Air Marshells on them.. Would have mad a Diff in most cases.. ???
QuoteCan you imagine people blaming and suing the police because a family member was murdered and the police was not there for prevention?
Been done (not with those exact details)... IIRC, the police were observing a suspect from an undercover position when another violent crime (with unrelated individuals to their investigation) happened within their view. They chose NOT to intervene to stop the crime but instead remained hidden (so as not to blow their cover) and summoned other officers who arrived too late. When the criminal was caught and went to trial, the undercover officers were called to testify to what they had seen. The victim then sued the police for not acting to protect them from the attack. The Supreme Court ruled that the police do NOT have an legal obligation to prevent crime even if they know ahead of time that it is likely to occur, nor do they have any liability if they choose not to.
Gun control = the ability to hit your target with sufficient caliber to end the situation.
Quote from: ktmossman on June 23, 2008, 01:18:44 PM
Gun control = the ability to hit your target with sufficient caliber to end the situation.
For the best gun control= hold the gun with 2 hands. Jack
CONSTRUCTIVE CONTRIBUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as for what I would have done, I travel armed, I am not a small guy at 6'6" and 260# although I likey would not have stopped. I would have had someone on the phone. Slowing down would have been an option too......his ability to get in your bus is limited and your ability to push his car anywhere you want is unlimited, the possibility of severe damage to your bus would have been less as well as any injuries...even to the asshole who was f'ing with you
not knowing your final destination outside of 20 miles from Sparta, I would say that is not the route I would have taken. although likely shorter by mileage, it was late at night so sightseeing was not the purpose of that route, nor any side fieldtrips to see the biggest ball of twine or something. I would have planned on going all the way across on 20, able to travel at 65+ mph and have service more readily available if you had any mechanical issues.....something I would be more concerned with at night than during the day. Most of those small towns roll up the streets after dark, save people who are at bars.
Side note: When Charter bus companies drive through shi**y areas....all interior lights remain off, This is so those that are likely to stone the bus etc...can't determine if their "neighbors" ( politcally partially correct identifier of ethnic area dwellers) are on board.
Side note: When Charter bus companies drive through shitty areas....all interior lights remain off, This is so those that are likely to stone the bus etc...can't determine if their "neighbors" ( politcally partially correct identifier of ethnic area dwellers) are on board.
Wow Doug,
I think I would have said this.....When Charter bus companies drive through shi**y areas....all interior lights remain off.
You could have left off the last part and the point would have been better taken.
Paul
Ethnic dwellers refers to everyone because everyone is ethnic.
I'm lutheran lol.
Wow, I really have tried to avoid this thread as it has become a highly debated issue outside of the original post!
But in fact, just today we got a regular safety bulletin from our insurance company that we get 2,3, sometimes 4 times a month (either when ever some really big accident or incident hits them with a claim, or they just get enough worth while tips/tidbits to fill a bulletin to share!) And #1 item in this bulletin is a warning that bus theft and attempted hijackings are on the rise! And all operators should pay extra attention when in dark, and lightly traveled areas if they see any suspicious activity at all. They went on to say that while there have actually been a number of unoccupied buses stolen, to date there were no documented reports or claims for damages of a hijacking actually taking place. But that several operators had informed them of shady characters attempting to stop buses in odd and remote areas for unknown reasons. It went on to say the best solution was to call 911 and report the situation and keep driving to a more populated area if at all possible before stopping!
Now having read this bulletin, I felt it necessary to enlighten our members here. Now most of you who while not operating commercial buses, have some pretty nice looking buses and could very easily fall victim to the same culprits as any charter operator! Now flame me if you wish, but I've said what I thought should be said regardless of whether or not it's legal to pack, whether or not I should, or would if I could, etc! Now lets give Greg his thread back, and if ya wish to debate gun issues start a thread on it in the "off topic section"
This my opinion, and is only my opinion regardless of how popular or unpopular it makes me! ;D BK ;D
It seems to me there are a couple of lessons that we all could learn from Greg's experience and BK's comments:
- avoid the bad areas at any time of day but particularly so at night
- don't stop - I have no desire to kill anyone and I hope everyone else who posts here would echo that sentiment. However, these buses we drive are really hard to stop if we don't want to stop them. No rusted out caddy is going to keep me stationary. I don't have to hit him hard, I don't even have to hit him - in bull low he's gonna move.
- use the cell phone - call for help - and keep moving
- keep the lights out - that should be basic common sense - it really bugs me when mama has the lights on after dark anyway
Sounds pretty hairy, and I for one believe this, because when someone is high on crack, or heroin or some other narcotic -- logic pretty much tends to go out the window.
Believe me, my main business is driving a taxi in a city of about 40,000 with a serious drug problem for its size, this is something I know about. I've seen people do some pretty crazy things when they are high.
I'm glad you managed to avoid a confrontation with this dirt bag, but I would highly recommend anyone who wants to possibly avoid this situation from good Samaritans to install a CB radio and post a sign with the channel you choose to monitor on the rear or side, then if someone notices you have a problem, they can simply tell you over the CB instead of playing chicken with 12 to 20 tons of bus. Just make sure you don't use channel 9, in most states it is emergency only for calling police.
Especially as most people in cars and light trucks do not realize these vehicles are way too heavy to stop quickly and do not realize the danger they are putting all parties involved in by forcing a quick maneuver that may possibly roll your bus. This may also help in a real emergency of this type, because most state police monitor CB channel 9. CBs will work when cell phones do not.
Just my $ .02 worth!
Greg,
Great post. I, and I am sure many, have profited from yours and others opinion and experience on the original subject. There might be some of this that drifted a little off topic but I think busses is still embedded in there. I am glad it wasn't transferred to "off topic".
Thanks again,
John
I too believe the fellow was under the influence of something. What an insane decision he made to attempt to stop a 16 ton bus with an old caddy. I do have and use a CB and have actually had a trucker call me a couple of years back and told me that one of my ac covers was getting loose. Thanks for chiming in!
Quote from: WHT_WS_I_THNKNG on June 23, 2008, 11:58:47 PM
Sounds pretty hairy, and I for one believe this, because when someone is high on crack, or heroin or some other narcotic -- logic pretty much tends to go out the window.
Believe me, my main business is driving a taxi in a city of about 40,000 with a serious drug problem for its size, this is something I know about. I've seen people do some pretty crazy things when they are high.
I'm glad you managed to avoid a confrontation with this dirt bag, but I would highly recommend anyone who wants to possibly avoid this situation from good Samaritans to install a CB radio and post a sign with the channel you choose to monitor on the rear or side, then if someone notices you have a problem, they can simply tell you over the CB instead of playing chicken with 12 to 20 tons of bus. Just make sure you don't use channel 9, in most states it is emergency only for calling police.
Especially as most people in cars and light trucks do not realize these vehicles are way too heavy to stop quickly and do not realize the danger they are putting all parties involved in by forcing a quick maneuver that may possibly roll your bus. This may also help in a real emergency of this type, because most state police monitor CB channel 9. CBs will work when cell phones do not.
Just my $ .02 worth!
John,
Thanks for your words and I am glad that most are getting something good from this.
In summary:
1) Stay out of the little dark unpatrolled towns after hours!
2) Stop and spend the night in the populated areas and drive the risky legs of the trip during daylight hours if there is no path around these areas.
3) Avoid a dangerous confrontation.
4) Be prepared to protect your family for those situations that are not avoidable or are unforeseen.
5) Keep your weapon(s) of choice strategically located and in safe storage. For me it is one Glock with backup clips located in a push button S&W safe and within driver's reach.
6) Back up protection that is really hard to beat is a pump style scatter gun. Rack one in the chamber and they will generally run away.
7) Think really hard about the decision of ramming a vehicle at city street speeds. I couldn't have hit the guy if I tried because he is so much smaller and faster and was clearly avoiding contact. A low speed collission would likely not disable the other vehicle and would likely only put you in a position for escalating the confrontation (see three above).
8) The police were not available to help us. The police still have done nothing to help us or anyone that drives through there in the future. They simply told me what I already know: "That is known as a rough area and you should probably avoid Sparta"
9) Have a plan for your passengers. Where do they go when this or that happens and so forth. If you have a responsible and gun educated other person onboard then make him your back up (gun safe combos and locations etc).
10) Don't drive your big flashy bus through any questionable areas unless you are looking for trouble. Looking back, I can just imagine this fellow seeing all kinds of windfall from robbing, killing, stealing or whatever a dirtbag chooses to do. I have been in some really rough parts of the world but I was prepared for each area. It is what you don't at first expect that can reach out and get you. Be prepared to take care of your family!
Quote from: JohnEd on June 24, 2008, 10:36:41 PM
Greg,
Great post. I, and I am sure many, have profited from yours and others opinion and experience on the original subject. There might be some of this that drifted a little off topic but I think busses is still embedded in there. I am glad it wasn't transferred to "off topic".
Thanks again,
John
In 91, or thereabouts, there was an interesting art. in the SD Union about a RV camp robbery south of Tiejuana on that main highway to Ensanada. That stretch is, or was at the time, comparatively safe for Gringos. I camped along side that road a few times when off desert bike riding. Seems this guy stopped for the night and was dry camping with his family along the beach. In the light of the campfire at "0 dark thirty" he spied three men sneaking up on his camp and they had circled around his camper. When he spotted the machetes he went ballistic. He demanded that they stand clear of his vehicle and show themselves. They continued their advance and he then spied the third had circled behind him. He killed one with a single shot and mortally wounded another and winged the third that ran off into the brush and darkness. He loaded up his family and in-laws and beat feet for the border. They made it across "before the devil knew they were there". The first stop, this side of the border, was at police HQ where he filed an full incident report.
The Mex gummint lodged a formal complaint through their ambassador and demanded that the man be extradited to answer questions. Turns out the man was a cop from the SD area and said he wasn't going to go peacefully. The US ambassador said that the US was satisfied that the man had acted in self defense and in defense of his family and that all had been in mortal danger. NO extradition!!!
End of story about the three banditos that took knives to a gun fight. And an unusually happy ending.
HTH those that are opposed to guns at all costs. I think guns should be closely regulated and you should need to submitt to a background check and maybe attend a training session for safety and liability. but, I want them available for my, and others, protection.
John
In that story, things turned out well. Do not carry a firearm or ammo into Mexico! If you get caught, they will do you real dirty. Although the Mexican people are generally kind and hospitable, their government and police are run by thugs. You do not want them to take notice of you in any way, especially regarding breaking their laws. Being a law enforcement officer in the US will not help. It simply makes you better to exploit. Our agency advise us not to carry a badge or any official ID if traveling in Mexico. I have observed that warning when traveling to any third world country.
Yes, I am near the border too and you will get into extreme hot water if they find even one bullet and no gun. Just a bullet can get a US person a prison sentence in Mexico. Being so close in the McAllen area we do here of people making this mistake and it always costs them large sums of money and a lot of time to get out of hot water. No badges or official ID is the word here too.
Quote from: Lin on June 25, 2008, 10:19:28 AM
In that story, things turned out well. Do not carry a firearm or ammo into Mexico! If you get caught, they will do you real dirty. Although the Mexican people are generally kind and hospitable, their government and police are run by thugs. You do not want them to take notice of you in any way, especially regarding breaking their laws. Being a law enforcement officer in the US will not help. It simply makes you better to exploit. Our agency advise us not to carry a badge or any official ID if traveling in Mexico. I have observed that warning when traveling to any third world country.
Knives on your person are are also illegal in Mexico. Even a pen-knife on your keychain is too much if the police are looking for reasons to arrest you.
And to be fair, I'm sure if the incident had been reversed (Mexicans camping in US kill attackers in self-defense and flee back across the border), the US would be asking Mexico to send them back, with probably the same result.
It's a judgment call...even when you're in the right, you have to decide what the best course of action in the situation. Stay and deal with local law, or flee the scene of a crime (often a crime itself) to a more favorable jurisdiction. In that case, since the guy was already going to be in real trouble for having a gun, he probably made the best choice.
I do like going into Mexico but not really the border towns because they are too rough at least where I am. However, I do not care to take any of my personal vehicles to Mexico but rather prefer to fly and avoid the border areas. I have heard that the Baja area is really good though and probably would consider taking the Eagle to that area. And yes, knives are a bad thing too! - Greg
Quote from: Nusa on June 25, 2008, 01:05:15 PM
Knives on your person are are also illegal in Mexico. Even a pen-knife on your keychain is too much if the police are looking for reasons to arrest you.
And to be fair, I'm sure if the incident had been reversed (Mexicans camping in US kill attackers in self-defense and flee back across the border), the US would be asking Mexico to send them back, with probably the same result.
It's a judgment call...even when you're in the right, you have to decide what the best course of action in the situation. Stay and deal with local law, or flee the scene of a crime (often a crime itself) to a more favorable jurisdiction. In that case, since the guy was already going to be in real trouble for having a gun, he probably made the best choice.