I want'em all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D (I'm not greedy, I share. ::) ;D ;D)
Well, I figure, "tis' the season", and I seem to be having a mill that wants to get a little hotter than I would like - all of a sudden - so..................what do ya know??? Tricks, tips, etc.....
Dallas has recommended fabric softener (surfactant) in the coolant to help clean out the radiator but I was wondering about what else would help keep our beloved beasts cool. Things like "scoops" over the radiator opening or an aluminum angle iron on the leading edge of the radiator opening or a taller "flap" underneath or better fan or an extra six pack in the fridge for when I have to stop and let her cool down or......................... whatever.
It seems like it might be a good topic to have around as a reference. So whatdaya know??
Chaz
remove your radiator and have it cleaned. would suggect doing the same to the heater and defroster core at the same time since you will have the system drained.
a splash gaurd as delivered from the factory behind the rear axle.
Tstat that is operating properly.
other than that....Tired Mills produce more heat to do the same work
When it starts to get hot gear down to keep RPM's up
Be certain if you have a hydraulic fan drive that it is working right
a scoop on a gm does very little due to the size of the radiator
Chaz,
I agree with Doug on this.
Did this problem just occur? Or has it been going on since you've owned the bus?
Shorcuts might work for a while, but that only hides the cause.
What temp. have you been running?
I know nothing about GM's, only trying to give you some ideas. ;)
Good Luck,
Paul
Chaz:
Received your reply about wintering, could not answer it. E mail me at edvan@q.net
ED
Agreed that doing it right is best, but it "J-U-S-T" gets hot (if you will) after a half hour or better. And it just started that. I can slow down for awhile and it cools off again.
I'm trying Dallas' trick for right now (smells so goooooood!) but I was figuring on playing with getting it more air or whatever, anyway. I know that come middle of summer people start looking at different ways to try and keep the mills a little cooler. (misters, whatever)
I think I am going to give the idea of an angle iron on the leading edge of the radiator opening a shot and then tape ribbons on the side and cruise down the highway. See what kind of air flow i have.
I'm just looking for little added extras that can help me and anyone else looking to gain a little extra cooling.
Tryin to "keep it kool",
Chaz
chaz,
DON"T put the angle at the front of the Radiator. That will do two things, cause a bit of low preasure wher you don;t want it, and disturb the airflow, possibly enough to disturb the amount that the fan can suck.
Since it just started doing it first thing I would check is the fan drive.
Is it mechanical or hydraulic. the Hydraulic will look sort of like a torque converter on a car.
there is a very good chance that the fan is not sucking like it used to.
Second I would pull the tstat out and check it's operation, or at least get an IR thermometer and check on both sides of the Tstat which will give you a good guestimate of what is going on inside.
Third, have you added any coolant lately or any other chemicals to the coolant?
And how hot is it getting? Someone posted recently that the thermostats do not fully open until the temperature gets up to 195 degrees.
Richard
I can slow down for awhile and it cools off again? :'(
Say how fast are you going when it starts to get Hot? ???
If your GM Buffalo has the V730 transmission installed was it factory or or did it have the old 4 speed Spicer from the factory?
Does the transmission have the extra oil to air heat exchanger with the regular coolant to oil heat exchanger?
If your fluid drive fan is not turning fast enough when the engine temp get's up in the high temperature range you will have a overheat condition.
You should remove the radiator and remove the top and bottom tanks and have the radiator rodded and cleaned.
I own a P8M4905A with the V730 transmission transplant and if you push it real hard on a hot day 70-75 mph it WILL get a case of the hot's.
Speeds around 60 mph it is a lot cooler running normal temp.180 to190.
Now I have heard of folk's going to a 8/V92 water pump on the engine and the extra air to oil cooler and checking to make sure the radiator fan is working normal and the radiator core is clean and in good condition this solved the over heat problems in their GMC Buffalo.
Just be careful overheating your engine to much can do a costly amout of dammage like cracked heads and other problems.
Good luck and keep us posted.
jlv :P
I think before I went to the trouble and expense of removing and rodding out the radiator, heater core, removing and rebuilding the fan drive, I would make certain the temperature gauge is actually correct.
As a "just fer instance", as I'm driving down the road for hours and hours and hours on end, through hills and valley's, inclines and declines, my temperature gauge will sit happily on 180°.
All of a sudden, I look down and my temp has started to climb. Worried, I pull off at the first wide spot I can find, and by this time the temp is up to 210°. I grab my trusty Harbor Freight issue Infrared Laser Non Contact Temperature Gun and check all over the engine. The highest temp I can find on the block or water manifold is 163°.
What is the problem? Turns out that the ground strap from the engine to the body has gone south, causing the gauge to read incorrectly. Also the dash ground is corroded so badly, it's a wonder the gauges work at all.
Bottom Line: Check your grounds
Good Luck,
Dallas
The last time I had that problem it was silica drop out. The silica from the coolant had collected in the bottom of the radiator blocking flow. Pulled the radiator, cleaned it out, problem solved. Good luck....Cable
About possible incorrect temperature gauge reading....Dallas's post explain it well.
If the gauge is reading correctly....then read on.
About fabric softener in engine's coolant.....it is surfactant however it contain ingredient that it was process at below engine's coolant operating temperature. In other words, it can break down to unwanted substance to add to weaken cooling system flow and possible coating onto heated surface and radiator's tubing to reduce the heat & cooling transfer.
History:
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Fabric-Softener.html
Many versions of what & how it made:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabric_softener
I could be total wrong because I am not a chemist, but I would remove radiator to remove tanks for plugged cores and fins rotted or unsoldered from tubing.
Quote from: tekebird on June 16, 2008, 06:34:30 AM
remove your radiator and have it cleaned. would suggect doing the same to the heater and defroster core at the same time since you will have the system drained.
a splash gaurd as delivered from the factory behind the rear axle.
Tstat that is operating properly.
other than that....Tired Mills produce more heat to do the same work
When it starts to get hot gear down to keep RPM's up
Be certain if you have a hydraulic fan drive that it is working right
a scoop on a gm does very little due to the size of the radiator
About the "splash guard".....is a very important improvement to cooling. The purpose is to cause a "vacuum" area behind it under engine & transmission, which mean more fresh air flow through radiator. Better yet add a deflector below radiator's grille with heavy rubber flap material or longer bottom "tunneling" shield to increase greater vacuum after fan. Some of newer high end bus conversions come with that feature.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
I had an experience like Dallas on my first motorhome. The temp gauge would show hotter and hotter the more I drove. It looked like I was about to overheat, so I pulled over. The temp gauge immediately dropped and the engine had no signs of overheating (don't you just love the snap, crackle, and pop of an overheated engine). Anyway, I did not have any high tech equipment, so I duct taped an thermometer to the radiator intake hose which gave a good approximation of the actual temp which hovered around the thermostat rating.
The best thing I ever did to fix my overheating problems was to have the radiator cleaned. The radiator company found a bunch of pin holes that had been plugged with stop leak. I ended up having a new core installed instead of trying to patch something that was already questionable.
All of my overheating problems vanished with the new core. Do note that I have a four stroke engine that is generally less likely to overheat.
I'm finally back to continue...... :) It's been busy.
I'm hoping I can do some sort of flush without pulling the radiator. Maybe the Downy will do the trick. It just kinda seems right on the edge and hasn't done this before. Even when I was pulling a trailer with a '51 Chevy on it, it didn't overheat.
I know my temp gauge is not right as I put a mechanical on the motor back in the engine compartment. My dash gauge registers it a little hotter than the motor is, but not sure exactly how much. Jerry Lieber had shot my radiator last fall, at a rally when I just pulled in, with his infrared gun and it showed between 165 and 185 (I'm pretty sure) depending on where he took the reading on the radiator (top/bottom). I understood that to be ok. ??? I should probably get one of those guns. ;D
The splash guard/skirt/mudflap/whatever you call it under the bus that causes the negative pressure is still on my bus. It's in "pretty good shape" except for about 1/4 of it is missing from just the center section. (not much) Maybe it would make a difference to replace that center section.
By the way, is it better to be as close to the ground as possible or is there a point where it doesn't really matter? I'm probably going to create a flap myself from belting.
QuoteBetter yet add a deflector below radiator's grille with heavy rubber flap material or longer bottom "tunneling" shield to increase greater vacuum after fan. Some of newer high end bus conversions come with that feature.
Any chance someone could explain this a little bit better? I'm not sure I am quite getting it. But it sounds like something I could do and it could help.
QuoteSay how fast are you going when it starts to get Hot?
Wish i knew. No speedo. But I can tell you, I wasn't passing anyone. Maybe 60-65 max. I also have the V730 tranny. I think it was an upgrade at some point. (It has the wrong speedo linkage and it was missing the side mounting bracket that I built for it.) I'm not sure about the oil to air heat exchanger. What's it look like?
Here are a couple shots so maybe one of you can tell me what I have or don't have. ::) :)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg279%2FSkulptor%2FMotor%2520Coach%2FDSCN1482.jpg&hash=49701f08eeae598452821a04a518d67fbd487ef4)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg279%2FSkulptor%2FMotor%2520Coach%2FDSCN1483.jpg&hash=6d47afc05f11eef92103357c3e9b93887da8957b)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg279%2FSkulptor%2FMotor%2520Coach%2FDSCN1481.jpg&hash=5244c62985b23c039bc814bbb517b0de8a2e2e9a)
(I love the wonders of modern technology! ;D)
So what is the fan drive? The "cone" that the fan is on? Can you tell from the pix what I have? (Hope so.) If not, I'll get you more.
Hopefully you guys can address this from what I have posted. I need to get this figured out soon as I am taking a trip July 3rd. I have my deadlines on my latest projects met pretty well, so hopefully I can put a little more time into this effort.
Thanx for ALL the help!!!! ( I was telling a buddy the next thing I need for the bus is a Lap Top for when I am on the road!!! I am ALWAYS singing the praises of this board!! Told two guys today already!!! ;D)
Thanx again,
Chaz
Looks like you do not have the air to oil cooler on your coach but you do have the engine coolant to oil cooler between the inside of the rear bumper and the transmission.
You have fluid fan drive on your engine.
I think if it were me I would pull the radiator and have it checked and roded out.
Then that would give you a good idea where you problem is and you can go from there.
You do not want to overheat the old 8V/71 it,s to costly.
I just talked to Nick at Nimco and he has used running take out 8V/71's left hand rotation for $2700.00 each good engines.
jlv
Chaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door.
The flap under the radiator is just another way to create a low pressure area so that the air is forced to be drawn through the radiator and forced out under the engine. Hint: If you put a trans cooler on the passenger side, also put a flap under that door, it may help.
On the speedometer, for under $100 you can buy a tach and sending unit on eBay, install it, then have some one follow you in a vehicle with known accurate speedometer. As you reach the top of each gear, where you can't accelerate on the flats anymore, turn on your 4-ways for a second or wag your hand out the window. Have them remember the speed they were going when they saw you do that. To get a little fancier, have them flash their lights at you when you hit 45, 55, 65 and 70 mph. watch the tach as they do this and you'll have the most important speeds.
If you want, I have an old serial port GPS I would be willing to give you when you get a laptop. It works great, but I've upgraded to a USB model I can put outside.
Dallas
Quote from: Dallas on June 18, 2008, 12:49:05 PM
Chaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door.
The flap under the radiator is just another way to create a low pressure area so that the air is forced to be drawn through the radiator and forced out under the engine. Hint: If you put a trans cooler on the passenger side, also put a flap under that door, it may help.
On the speedometer, for under $100 you can buy a tach and sending unit on eBay, install it, then have some one follow you in a vehicle with known accurate speedometer. As you reach the top of each gear, where you can't accelerate on the flats anymore, turn on your 4-ways for a second or wag your hand out the window. Have them remember the speed they were going when they saw you do that. To get a little fancier, have them flash their lights at you when you hit 45, 55, 65 and 70 mph. watch the tach as they do this and you'll have the most important speeds.
If you want, I have an old serial port GPS I would be willing to give you when you get a laptop. It works great, but I've upgraded to a USB model I can put outside.
Dallas
Cell phones work great for this test.
Richard
It also looks like you dont have the complete shroud length, it should at least be the same width of the fan blades or more to get the full value of the fan.>>>Dan
Chaz...
You mentioned the temp droped back to normal when you slowed. That was similar to the behavior I experienced. The flow was restricted in the radiator. If you are going over the week of the 4th you don't want to be stuck over the holiday with a dead bus. Pulling the radiator and cleaning it out is not expensive, if the core is good. If the core is bad you want a new one anyway. The coolant and a couple of gaskets, plus some time and friends (it's heavy) are all you need. If that's the problem you save a motor. If not, you had a day with friends and a clean radiator for the next few years....
Sorry if I sound preachy....My first experience with radiator problems left me in Wolf Creek, Ore. for 2 weeks waiting for parts. Not the best vacation. But I did get a new motor...Cable
Thanx Dan! Good call! I didn't even notice that. ::) And I have even built several S.S. shrouds for Hot Rods. :-[
Dallas,
So basically, just use the same belting and run a length along the bottom of the radiator lenght-ways with the bus. (?) Easy enough I think. But do you think putting one on either side, regardless if I do the cooler or not, would help? I'm not an "air authority" but seems feasible.
THIS is the kind of stuff I was talking about as far as tips and tricks go. Very cool!! Thanx guys.
QuoteChaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door
I'm aware of the trany cooler on cars (external ones), so you're saying build a BIG one or buy one. Is that to replace the type cooler I have, or supplement it?
As far as the speedo goes, I'm saving up to hopefully kill several birds with one stone. A GPS and hopefully a backup camera with it. Do they make such a creature, or is that something a person would need to kinda piece together themselves? I guess the lap top can become one with them, but I'm not sure about all that stuff yet. It's on the back burner. I, obviously, have bigger hills to climb. :P ;D
Dallas, if you get back up this way, (Hopefully soon) I think I could use a good "one day-er" class on my bus......... stem to stern. ;D There is just soooooooo much to know and learn.
Hats off to you guys again!
Chaz
p.s.
QuoteCell phones work great for this test.
Good call Richard. Dallas was thinking Old School again. ;) Bad thing is, I was biting!! LOLOLOLOLOL ;D
Thanx Cable,
We criss crossed posts. :)
I think I may be doing that.............. along with the other couple tricks I found out about. I've read so much about people trying to keep these beasts cool that I want to hedge my bet the best i can. Plus, I will be going down I-75 and then over to Bristol TN. for the night race. Jellico Mountain can be pretty trying I understand. :o Might as well get ready now.
But if ther are ANY other tricks or tips, PLEASE post them bad boys. It could help someone else down the road........ so to speak. ::) ;D ;D ;D
Chaz
On a GM coach application adding shroud material below the radiatore will not give any noticable effect on cooling.
the added ammount of low pressure would be negligable and have little effect on evacuating/exhausting the hot air.
and you are effectivly reducing the area from which hot air can leave the engine compartment.
from the factory, hot air leaves the engine compartment via Suction ( low psi vs High psi from below the bumper, below the tranny door and beloe the radiator ( in the radiator over the fan and out one of the three above mentioned paths)
I would suggest you address the problem properly by finding the cause...rather than wasting time and money on band aids
Address the following:
1. Radiator condition
2. Thermostat operation
3. Fan operation
Well ain't that just "matter of factly"
Quote from: Chaz on June 18, 2008, 02:48:28 PM
Thanx Dan! Good call! I didn't even notice that. ::) And I have even built several S.S. shrouds for Hot Rods. :-[
Dallas,
So basically, just use the same belting and run a length along the bottom of the radiator lenght-ways with the bus. (?) Easy enough I think. But do you think putting one on either side, regardless if I do the cooler or not, would help? I'm not an "air authority" but seems feasible.
THIS is the kind of stuff I was talking about as far as tips and tricks go. Very cool!! Thanx guys.
QuoteChaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door
I'm aware of the trany cooler on cars (external ones), so you're saying build a BIG one or buy one. Is that to replace the type cooler I have, or supplement it?
As far as the speedo goes, I'm saving up to hopefully kill several birds with one stone. A GPS and hopefully a backup camera with it. Do they make such a creature, or is that something a person would need to kinda piece together themselves? I guess the lap top can become one with them, but I'm not sure about all that stuff yet. It's on the back burner. I, obviously, have bigger hills to climb. :P ;D
Dallas, if you get back up this way, (Hopefully soon) I think I could use a good "one day-er" class on my bus......... stem to stern. ;D There is just soooooooo much to know and learn.
Hats off to you guys again!
Chaz
p.s.
QuoteCell phones work great for this test.
Good call Richard. Dallas was thinking Old School again. ;) Bad thing is, I was biting!! LOLOLOLOLOL ;D
I always think old school! I'm oldish ;). Besdies I don't want my popcorn popping as
I'm driving down the road talking on the cell phone! The Trans cooler would be in conjunction with your current coolant to oil heat exchanger.. one plus of setting it up that way is that it seems to me that your engine will come up to operating temp sooner, giving you some much needed heat on those cold mornings when you need to leave early.
I wouldn't run the belting all the way to the ground on the side doors, but maybe 3-4" down. Just enough to cause a better low pressure area forcing the air out the rear.
I'm not sure when Cat and I will be able to make it over, I have had to take a couple of days off work after losing an argument with a piece of 2X6 and a Prevost XLII. This means I'll have to make up the lost time on the weekend.
Hopefully, I'll be back up to speed tomorrow after the green and purple swelling goes down.
Dallas
Thanx Dallas!
Good luck on the "technicolor". ;D
Chaz
Ok...................
I got ahold of some belting. (YESSSSS) It's rock quarry belt so its a bit thicker, but I think will be fine. So back to an original question: does it matter how low it goes to the ground or is the lower the better? (that would be my thought)
I'm also going to add a 2 1/2" ring around the fan- welded to the shroud. Both these things should be easy enough to do for starters and obviously should be done.
Then.................. I guess I need to look at doing the radiator. I'm not overly enthusiastic about pulling that monster, but if necessary, I can and will. But I was wondering if I dropped the bottom tank do you think I could tell anything? Just curious, cause if it should happen to be ok (I know....wishful thinking) it could save me some trouble.
Oh, and what/where do I get the gasket material for between the tanks and core?
Thanx Guys,
Chaz
Dallas and Chaz,
Although your concept of increasing the low pressure is in the right direction, as I said in my last post, you are effectively making the exhaust air area smaller.
hot engine air is designed to go from the low pressure to the high pressure, this includes out the sides of the bottom of the engine compartment too. there is a significant low pressure on the side of a bus, think about it, thats where the A/C Condensor air goes out the bottom and then out the side, as well as back
I don't have a wind tunnel to prove my theory, but I doubt that you will see any cooling improvement by adding belting to the sides, i fact at lower speeds you may see an decrease in efficiency by reducing the exhaust exit area.
I think the ring on the shroud will aid a bit but again that is not the problem. That shroud looks to be the same OEM shroud that has been on all of the buffaloes we have owned. which is 5 with two still in our ownership. Ask me how I remember....becuase starting at age 10 I was cleaning bus engines, including fan blades, which were easily accessable
Again, address the real problem.
GM's never really had cooling issued when in passenger service, they have a nicely designed big radiator, and a well engineered hot air exhaust system.
Your problem is one of the three things Mentioned in earlier posts.
Start checking those. and your problem will be gone.
Address the problem
It seems to me that if you have already towed a car and it didn't overheat it is probably not a restricted ventilation problem. When I had my 4905 I just reached in and felt the radiator and if it had widely varying temps on the surface,
that would mean I had a partial blockage. I would get the bus to temp and feel around if you don't have an IR gun (after two "false" alarms with two different buses I would highly recommend getting one) and use your hands to see if you can discern any areas of blockage. The 730's are pretty suspect as well, is the tranny shifting normally Chaz?
If the tranny overheats it will overheat the motor. But if it was working fine before I am in agreement with the earlier post it is probably either the stat, the gauge, or blockage somewhere in your system. Try looking in your coolant return tank to see if you have good circulation as well. Your hands will probably be able to diagnose this issue, if you put your hand on the inlet side of your stats and it is remarkable different on the outlet. You have solved you riddle. Good luck on your trip. Keep it between the lines , on the interstate and your temp gauge. By the way both times it was my gauge was wildly inaccurate. Occams razor "The simplest answer is usually best".
Along Tekebirds venue......First would be diagnose the problem.
You may wish to try this for non teardown diagnoses.
testing
Please remember there should be the exact numbers in some book somewhere.
At operating temps, high idle
1. Measure the heat at the top of the tank then the bottom The heat difference should be X # of deg (in a book)
If the bottom is not cooler then the rad is not doing its job (fins, plugged and or Fan speed)
2. Measure the top of the tank continuously it should go up and down fairly regularly (thermostat working)
if not the therm. is stuck open or not opening enough either way replace.
3. Fans can look like they are working but it is hard to see a 10% belt slippage/hyd wear.
with an biddle or optical tach measure fan speed both low and high idle and compare it against the engine
rpms figure the percentage if it is above 5% (my opinion some will figure differently) then fix
And as always YMMV
You all may know this but I thought I would state it for those who don't
Skip
If the vernatherm is working and the engine is hot, when you accelerate the engine, the fan will accelerate with the engine. If the Vernatherm has failed, you might see that the fan just idles over even though the engine is hot.
This makes for a cheap test.
Tom Caffrey
Dallas,
I'm interested in putting in a trans cooler as you spoke of. I would like to find one at a "boneyard", if possible, to save some cake for the rest of the project. Is there a specifc model or at least some sort of guide lines - tubing size , flow, capacity, etc. - that I should be aware of? And of course, I'd like your opinion on where to mount it and plumb the lines into.
Tom,
Sorry for thr lack of knowledge but, is a Vernatherm the unit that drives the fan? Thats my assumption. If so, will I be able to see the fluctuation easily with the naked eye as I rev the motor?
Skip,
I'll try to round up a "gun" but last fall Jerry "shot" my radiator with his gun when I pulled in to a ralley and I believe it was 185 on top and 165 on bottom. Not saying that something couldn't have gone wrong since then, but it sounds like it was good back then.
So now, with all that you guys have helped me with, it sounds like the fandrive could maybe have a problem. I'll do some more diagnosis, but if it is, what does it take to fix that? The radiator I can do. The trany cooler I can do. BUT...... I haven't a clue about this fan thing. ??? :P
Thanx for all the help. Looks like my weekend is going to be busier than I had hoped.
Trying to be kool,
Chaz
Chaz, I think you should be able to see if the fan accelerates with the engine. The drive should take the fan up to within 10% of the speed of the engine, so it will blow a lot of air if it is up to speed.
When the Vernatherm is shuts the fan off, the fan idles over quite slowly, and does not speed up much when the engine is revved up.
The Vernatherm is the thermostat for the fan; it is mounted in a coolant pipe down low. When the coolant gets hot enough, it turns on the fan drive by causing the torus to fill with oil.
I don't recall for sure if the Vernatherm blocks the drain to fill the torus, or admits oil to it.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey
I guess I'm going to pull the radiator. I I may as well. Might as well cover all the bases.
I called my parts counter buddy to get me the tank to core gaskets. He thought he could, but as it turns out....not. :-\ So where do you guys get yours?
Another buddy has an infra red gun so i will scope it out with that first, but, just in case........ I will have to get the gaskets somewhere.
By the way, the fan will not spin when trying to do it by hand. Is that good, bad, insignificant...?
Thanx guys,
Chaz
Luke at US Coach has the upper and lower radiator tank gaskets. ;D
888-262-2434
He said give him a call.jlv ;D
Chaz,
Before you pull the rad do something else. 1) drain the coolant from the rad, engine block and lines to the front heater. 2) refill with water and "WASHING SODA" mixed according to the box ++++. Start the engine and bring her up to temp with the heater on inside. Make sure the defroster is hot and the thermostats are open by feeling the input to the rads. Run for thirty min at fast idle. 3) Drain the rad, block and heater 4) refill with water and repeat till the water coming out after heating does not have a soapy feel on your fingers. This may take 4 cycles. The project take a couple hours plus cause the engine warms slowly even with all that cardboard blocking air flow. It is very important to "repeat" till no soda is in the water cause the stuff acts like a detergent and will, after a while, take out your water pump seals. Just like a car. The amt of crud you see come out of an engine that is only a couple years old is amazing....yours might scare you. You can leave a ton of debris in the lines to the heater and in the block so make sure the drains run clear and full.
About that angle fixed to the leading edge of the rad opening: It is a free refinement and will detract under no circumstance. It makes a low pressure behind it and this helps turn the airstream into the radiator. The edge perpendicular to the side should be the closest to the opening.
Using a hi-pressure water washer, clean out you rad. Then spray a detergent into the fins and go at again. I have read many posts where this alone corrected a overheating problem.
You have two sides to the engine and I think you have two thermostats. At any rate you need the temp gun to stay on top and proper diag this and future ailments.
And, I did not say roding the rad was a bad idea...just see if you can avoid it.
HTH,
John
Chaz I have tryed to stay out of the washing soda and clothing softner in radiator. all old wifes tales. If you want to clean out radiator go to NAPA and get some radiator cleaner and put in there according to mixture noted on can/bottle it will take severl then take the old girl out and warm her up good and follow the durection on the container I don't mean to disrespect anybody on here but your not doing laundry your trying to clean out a radiator and save a 1000 dollars and you can get a roll of gasket material at NAPA also and make your own gaskets a real small peen hammer makes short work out of making a gasket. and be careful if you do pull radiator them suckers are heavy.
LarryH
Chaz, the fan drive is fixed if you can't turn the fan by hand. That means that you're already getting maximum cooling that fan speed will give you.
About all you can do in that case is make sure the fan size and surroundings are what they should be.
We make a point of using the fluid drive because I believe it makes a difference in fuel economy, especially in cool to cold weather. The fan draws quite a bit of power from the engine; running it at speed when that is not needed helps nothing at all.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
LarryH,
Actually I agree with you on all counts. Washing soda is inferior to "some" of the flush products out there. I don't know which are the best. Washing soda is a good product for the cleaning on the cheap and I think some of the commercial products have it as an ingredient. It has been used since I was a kid and that's just a little after they invented "dirt".
I have used it on friends engines that blew a turbo and injected a lot of exhaust gasses into the coolant. The system was cruddy and the analysis came back with a blown head gasket. I suspected that the shop had not flushed the system after the turbo thing and I suggested we do a serious flush before he launched into having the engine torn down as he was planning. The flush with washing soda did the trick and the next analysis came back with glowing results. Saved many thousands of needless repair costs.
I can't over emphasize this enuf.....flush the system repeatedly with water after using a flush product. Make sure all parts of the system are open to the flush process and are also flushed. Heater, Wabasto etc. Check the flush water for a "slippery soapy feel" and flush till it doesn't feel that way.
John
I flushed the system out, back and forth. I may pull the heaters next if I have time.
Dan noticed that the fan shroud should be back further. I completely missed that. And I have even built them for Hot Rods! (brain fart)
Do any of you guys shrouds extend back farther than mine? Wouldn't you think that would be a good idea? And possibly even a better idea to taper it so the air would flow better instead of running into a wall?
Whataya think?
Chaz
we have two 4108's presently and have had 3 other buffalos, none had a shroud that extended back. yours looks OEM to me.
Cooling systems become more effecient as the pressure is increased. I can pull the radiator fill cap and it will release pressure weeks after I have last driven my Eagle. So, how tight is your system? No pressure, no heat rejection.
Water pumps don't last for ever. Hook a small hose to a water plug on top of the engine and see how far it will spray water.
OK guys here is what I have done but she is still not up to snuff. I took 12 people to a concert in Indy (80 miles away) and she did fine going up. But on the way home, about midnight (cooler out), the red overheat warning light came on about 7 miles from home. I slowed down but she stayed on. So as I was pulling over, it went off. Everything seemed fine so I brought her home.
Here is what I have done so far:
The rad has been rodded and boiled. Everything flushed. New thermostats (and some hoses). New coolant that checks to -40*. Wix precharged additive added. I did not modify the corners of the fan shroud so air can get thru better but I did extend the shroud to cover the fan blades. The fan "seems" to be speeding up with engine speed - at least to best I can tell with the naked eye. (From what I can tell, it's a mechanical drive fan-no flying saucer thing on the end) I have the temp gauge on the dash that isn't correct, but I put a mechanical on the engine so I can compare.
The only things I can guess now are: maybe the water pump isn't up to snuff or maybe the ol' girl is just that tired and is working up a bunch of extra heat. I guess a trany cooler (oil to air) could help but as Teke has said, if everything works right, it shouldn't need it. By the way, the 730 was added. At least all the tell tale signs point to that.
So what is the next step? I'm open.
Thanx a bunch,
Chaz
I thought that it was mandatory to put a transmission cooler on when installing an automatic.
Quote from: Chaz on July 05, 2008, 07:35:16 AM
OK guys here is what I have done but she is still not up to snuff. I took 12 people to a concert in Indy (80 miles away) and she did fine going up. But on the way home, about midnight (cooler out), the red overheat warning light came on about 7 miles from home. I slowed down but she stayed on. So as I was pulling over, it went off. Everything seemed fine so I brought her home.
Here is what I have done so far:
The rad has been rodded and boiled. Everything flushed. New thermostats (and some hoses). New coolant that checks to -40*. Wix precharged additive added. I did not modify the corners of the fan shroud so air can get thru better but I did extend the shroud to cover the fan blades. The fan "seems" to be speeding up with engine speed - at least to best I can tell with the naked eye. (From what I can tell, it's a mechanical drive fan-no flying saucer thing on the end) I have the temp gauge on the dash that isn't correct, but I put a mechanical on the engine so I can compare.
The only things I can guess now are: maybe the water pump isn't up to snuff or maybe the ol' girl is just that tired and is working up a bunch of extra heat. I guess a trany cooler (oil to air) could help but as Teke has said, if everything works right, it shouldn't need it. By the way, the 730 was added. At least all the tell tale signs point to that.
So what is the next step? I'm open.
Thanx a bunch,
Chaz
Chaz,
I doubt that your water pump is bad, those bronze impellers are pretty tough, the biggest problems with water pumps on DD's, like many others is the seal at the back starts leaking. It's also a gear driven pump so it's either going to work or it's not, there isn't much in between.
Yes, you do need a transmission cooler, especially if you don't have a "Double Double" oil cooler on the side of the engine. One goes to the engine oil, one is for the transmission oil. If your automatic was added after market, then there is a good possibility that there is not enough cooling for it.
Question:What was the reading from your rear temp gauge when you were overheating?
Observation:If your dash gauge is titsup, what makes you think the idiot light is correct? Does the Alarmastat shut the engine down when it reaches too high a temp?
Question:If you stick your finger in the surge tank, does it come out with a bit of black stuff on it? If so, you may have a blown o-ring on the head.
Question:If you open the rad cap while it's overheating, do you get a gush of coolant? Again could be a blown head gasket o-ring.
We are in Overpeck, Ohio, not too far from you. If you need help, give us a holler.
Dallas
Lin,
Your correct, there has to be a cooler on an auto. Mine has a water (coolant) to oil cooler. I was actually talking about an air to oil cooler. Sorry.
Dallas,
Sorry, I didn't get a reading off of the mechanical. I was more interested in getting my friends home. So after I pulled over, I only went back to see if I had any leaks.
I can't you where the light is set to come on, but as near as I can tell, it's around 200 to 210. Somewhere in there.
The Alarmastat? Ok.......well....... nothing has ever shut me down. So I wonder if that works on my bus or if maybe someone disabled it? I guess I should look into that.
I stuck my inger in the puke tank and it came out "clean and green".
I haven't tried dong that when hot as I was afraid to get the perverbial "bath". And altho I like my showers hot.............................I don't want to smell like antifreeze. ;D ;D ;D lololol
If you don't think the pump should be bad, or at least it's not common, I wonder if the ol'girl is just that tired. Maybe if I put the air to oil cooler on the trany it will help. But I can't help but think that is just a bandaid.
Still tryin (after all these years) to be Kool,
Chaz
Chaz,
Using the "gun", check the temps of the water coming out of the heads. They should be close to being equal. I understand that one head always runs a few degree hatter. While the chatter is that that anomaly has stumped the 'panel", I suspect that only one side is used to feed the aftercooler and it is that device that is accounting for the temp diff. Still they should be close.
Is your trans torque converter locking up like it should?
John
Thanx John, but I must say, I'm still a bit in the dark. (sorry) I'm unsure what an aftercooler is.
And how can a person tell if the convertor IS hooking up?? (Boy I need some schoolin!! :-\)
Thanx John,
Chaz
Quote from: JohnEd on July 07, 2008, 09:29:52 AM
Chaz,
Using the "gun", check the temps of the water coming out of the heads. They should be close to being equal. I understand that one head always runs a few degree hatter. While the chatter is that that anomaly has stumped the 'panel", I suspect that only one side is used to feed the aftercooler and it is that device that is accounting for the temp diff. Still they should be close.
Is your trans torque converter locking up like it should?
John
No aftercoolers on 8V71 NAs. We have a temp gauge on each cylinder head and the right head runs about 5-8 degrees hotter. I know several other people with dual temp gauges and all seem to show the same differences in temps. Only reason I can come up with is that water pump is on left side of the engine. Maybe left head gets water a little quicker or more direct from radiator??? Just a guess. Jack
Hey, I finally got a new toy..........A Raytek Temp gun. ;D ;D ;D ;D Woo Hoo!! Now I can play around with it and not worry about getting it back to the owner.
Quick question: Should I check the temp at various parts of the motor to verify the mechanical temp gauge is correct? Could there be issues in the heads or block? How about individual cylinders? Could that give me any indication as to possible trouble spots?
Just curious. I'm wanting to play with my new toy! ::) ;D ;D lolol
Chaz
Chaz, if you have the factory double cooler one side will be 5 or so degrees warmer don't sweat that it is just the cooler doing it's job cooling the transmission and engine oil if it is a single cooler it is for the engine oil only have a great day and enjoy your new toy it will even find air leaks for you
OOOOWWWWW! Air leaks down the road. Now there is a plus.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Buses__MCI-Bus-Conversion-Great-Condition-Ready-To-Go_W0QQitemZ120287490780QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ20Q26Q20TrailersQQadnZBusesQQddiZ2828QQadiZ2802QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120287490780&_trksid=p3756.m14.l1318
Chaz, here is an example of fixing the symptom and not the problem.
im gonna get rid of my oil to water herat exchanger and replace it with a haydon cooler only, i have a freind that did this and it really works well, heat exchangers can be a real pain, have see internal leaks that can mix water and oil together making a real mess, also that 730 will heat up the the oil even when in lock up. just an opinion. mine runs much warmer with that heat exchanger than it did before
Frank Allen 4106
That's a little on the extreme side Teke. And not even close to the same idea as doing small things to try and help the ol'girl stay cool. But you have a point...... albeit "off the chart extreme".
Hey Frank,
Ya know, YOU make a VERY valid point - or two. I just may do that. It really makes good sense!! Especially since my bus was a manual to start with. Why put more pressure on the radiator?!?! And I want to put an oil to air heat exchanger on anyway. I imagine the radiator can, and does, take it, but it "would seem" that a better way of doing it would be to keep them separate.
Which Hayden did you use? Would you recommend the same one? I do believe I can fab up a real clean setup in the area where the toilet tube is. I'm going to have to look at that today.
Thanx for the thought!!
Chaz
Teke,
In that abortion of a cooling system on the 9 I noticed that the engine exhaust was dark and oily in appearance. Worn 2 cycle being almost impossible to cool?
John
Come on John,
that is one of the finest examples of a cooling system retrofit I think one might find. said in a sarcastic tone.
watch out or the Do it your way extremist will get you
Teke,
Heck, I stand corrected. ::) Colling systems as "art"? :P Who wooda thunk it? ??? Beauty and engineering excellance is in the eye of the beholder. ;D
"Do it your way extremest"? I resemble that remark!
Keep on truck'n,
John
I know this may sound strange but I had issues with overheating. I put in new cores and new thermostats and still had the problem. I have a mci 9 with 8 v 71. Someone on the board asked me if my auto tranny (740) perhaps is over filled with fluid / . It was . I removed however much by changeing filter and it lowered the temp by 10 degrees. Still doing fine. Mrac
Thanx Marc, good tip. I think mine is fine but that is a good tip to keep in mind. (but I wonder how it works??)
Still wondering about which Hayden would be the best to use without completely overkilling it. (which I am known to do ::) ::) )
Chaz
I want to make a very valid point on eliminating the water to oil shell cooler. With the water to oil cooler, the transmission actually warms up faster and stays at a more constant temperature-very close to the engine temp. By installing an air to oil cooler with a fan like I did, it takes out a big chunk of the initial heat then the rest from the shell cooler. This has the advantage of still heating the transmission up to temp sooner, and if it is cold out like in winter, it actually will keep the trans warm.
Whereas if you just have an air to oil cooler in front of the radiator, especially in winter, the transmission may never come up to temp creating a cold oil running situation that will make for a sluggish transmission. Personally like the idea of the shell cooler. Besides, virtually every big Diesel has a water to oil engine oil cooler that is built just like the shell cooler. Properly made a shell cooler should last the life of the engine. Just like everyone saying how Detroits belches oil all over the engine, I've seen virtually every make of engine at one time or another with a leak that has completely coated the engine with oil. Good Luck, TomC
Man.......... This is what i LOVE about this board!!!! Thanx Tom. I was unaware that the trany needed to be warm and that it would make a difference. I guess there may be someone who "might" have a difference of opinion, but either way, it's cool to know. I appreciate it.
I was also thinking........ (I know.... :oscarey :o) But, is it possible that the air to oil cooler you installed (between the shell cooler and the radiator- if I understand right) could actually help in cooling down the radiator?? Not that that would be a reason to do it, but it seems like it could on paper, if the air to oil cooler was big enough..........not? Just thinkin.........
Ok, now I'm back to an addition as opposed to a "swap". ;D
Chaz
Chaz,
Our setup is the fluid coming from the transmission to the aux (oil to air) cooler, then to the OEM (oil to water) cooler, then returns to transmission. If the fluid is cooler than the water, it is heated by the water.
Theoretically, if the fluid is cooler than the water, it would remove heat from the water, helping to cool the engine. This is theory only, however, we have found that all temps (transmission fluid, water, and engine oil) run about 5-10 degrees cooler with our setup. YMMV Jack