I was just trying to get every thing rounded up to be able to plug my bus in so I can use the 110 from the house to power the lights and ref on the bus.
I found a 3 prong female plug in the side of it that I think is either a 30 or 50 amp.
If I remember correctly my travel trailer had basically the same male plug on the end of a 50 foot cord that was wired into the trailer. it had a male plug on the end of it that I plugged up for shore power.
my question is the bus has a female plug the the cord would have to have a male plug on both ends? Is this normal? It sounds a little unsafe to have two male plugs am I worrying about nothing or does some thing need to be changed?
I looked thinking this might have been a plug to power another bus but i don't see any other plugs or cords any where in the area I think they should be.
You really need to get a busnut with experience to look at your electrical. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself or others. I would stop by if I was anywhere close to you.
A male receptacle should never be the input to any sort of electrical system. I would suspect that is not the input. If there was a female plug on the outside I would expect that to be your shore connection for use with a Marinco type cord.
Bob, you need to start from your distribution panel and find where the service came into the bus the one your describing sound like a buddy plug from the generator
OK you guys have help comfirm that was about what I was thinking.
I looked at the inside of the box and it looks like it might be a buddy plug.
But I don't see any wiring for shore power. It does have a big switch to switch between shore power and the genset. I am going to have to get some one that knows more about wiring than i do that's for sure.
Bob,
Can you post us a photo of the plug?
Devin
here arte some picture of the plug on the side of the bus.
I have looked and I think it might be a buddy plug.
You can see where the wires come into the box on the lower left hand side and goes to the breaker with the red throw on it and the other 2 wires go to the buss bar below the breakers.
I am not sure what this is I am assuming it might be a switch to change betewwn the genset and the shore cord.
One of the wires go to the genset and the other goes to the battery compartment by the radiator where it is all burn't up.
Bob, that is a change over looks like a Todd 30 amp I can see where the shore power enters good luck
O that sound a little low considering it is a 14KW genset.
The other end that comes from the switch in the last picture is in the battery compartment. Would I be OK if I were to put a twist lock power plug in the side of the bus and not have it hard wired in to the bus?
I have seen them on e-bay for boats that have a weather tight cover on them.
Bob,
What then would you have the plug wired to? And what is/was that burned wire attached to? It seems you may have an unsafe situation. Please be careful and don't go around anything that may be sketchy with a HOT system. I think you should try to map out your system on paper, it may make a bit more sense on paper.
Devin
I concur with Devin on the safety warning. And I further have grave concerns about the way the distribution panel is wired. There is absolutely NO adherence to wire color code standards. This makes for a very dangerous situation when someone such as yourself has to come in and try to make repairs or changes. Honestly, I'm surprised it wasn't an electrical fire that burned the bus in the first place. Even if you disconnected all wires that lead to the burned area, I would be very afraid to apply power to the distribution panel as wired.
I see:
- Green wires going to breakers (green should always be ground).
- Black wires spliced to red wires (red and black wires should be the two opposite legs of a 240V supply).
- Green, blue, black and white wires going to the neutral and ground bars.
- Blue wires going everywhere. Blue isn't even a valid color for single phase wiring in the U.S. (it belongs to 3 phase AC or else DC power) Further thinking about it, the presence of blue wires and a brown wire makes me wonder if it was wired in another country since blue and brown are standard colors in some other countries. But that still doesn't explain or excuse the mixing of colors described above.
- The neutral and ground bars are bonded. When running on the generator this isn't good.
Then there is the matter of the connector you were originally asking about. If that is where they were bringing in the power, it appears to connect directly to the distribution panel without use of any switching to isolate it from the generator. I don't know how the change over switch could even come into play if the outlet really is directly connected to the distribution panel. On the other hand, maybe it was just a 30 amp outlet for some use they had for it.
The bottom line is, there are so many issues there, that while you are rebuilding so much else anyway, I would strongly suggest that you rewire things to ensure the safety of you and and your family. That way you will know that it is wired correctly and that there aren't any hot grounds or neutrals hiding around inside or fire disasters waiting for the right combination of circumstances to happen.
Looks like I might have more than I can do.
I am not up to rewiring the whole thing.
Guess I need to find some one that wants to buy a bus.
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 25, 2008, 12:34:21 AM
Looks like I might have more than I can do.
I am not up to rewiring the whole thing.
Guess I need to find some one that wants to buy a bus.
Bob, just sit back and catch your breath for a few days and think about what you have and what you have accomplished.
When you started this safari, you had a burnt out engine compartment with a motor of unknown make or model, that you weren't even certain would run. You have made so much progress, you should be proud of your success.
Rewiring doesn't look like it should be that much of a problem, since it looks to me like there is conduit that would allow you to pull new wires through. That's a lot better than what I had to contend with when I got our PD4103. Our bus had the old cloth covered Romex solid strand wire spliced with everything from wire nuts to electrical tape, duct tape and even scotch tape in a number of places. Slowly I ripped all the old stuff out and replaced it with new THHN, mostly in metal clad conduit.
You can do this, we know you can, and you are in the right place to be.. on this board where we have so many, many people who can walk you through the process.
If you need moral support, you know you can call me anytime!
Dallas
Hi Bob...what Dallas said!
You have come a long way buddy. Why stop now!
You are fast becoming a lot of our heros!
What I like is you are not afraid to ask questions...and the folks on the board are not afraid to answer...even when it hurts!
Lot's of love here buddy...keep it going! ;D
Jack
Hi Bob,
You sound frustrated and discouraged. You have accomplished much, don't give up now!
It's like "How do you eat an elephant". One bite at a time.
Just take it one step at a time and when you are finished you will be proud of all of the work you have accomplished.
Wiring is not that hard, once you have the basic knowledge. Here is the place to attain that.
Keep asking questions, and you will get answers to them.
Good Luck and Happy Trails,
Paul
Bob, I didn't mean to shoot down you morale. As all the others have said, you have done amazing things already. I know a complete AC rewire sounds daunting, but as Dallas pointed out, the presence of conduits helps. I wish I was closer, I would help you with it. But rewiring will be one of the easier tasks you are dealing with. To do a good job on it just takes a little patience and self discipline. A helper at the other end of the wire can make things easier but you can do it by yourself if needed.
You can do it! Look at all the cheerleaders that are here for you! (granted, ugly cheerleaders, but we're full of pep or something ;D )
Bob,
Just to amplify/clarify some items:
Looking at the transfer switch, it's clear to me what's been done. Whoever wired things tried to save a bit of money, and used three-conductor SO cable (the stuff with the black rubber jacket) to wire 240-volts instead of the correct, four-conductor cable. It looks like they chose to use the green wire for neutral, and the black and white wires for the two hots.
This is the key problem you need to correct. The issue of the unsafe color code aside, there is also no ground wire in this arrangement. So your first step should be to remove the three-conductor cable, and replace it. Since it looks like you have conduit there already, I would replace the cable with individual THHN wires. You'll need black, red, white, and green.
I can't tell from the photo what gauge was used. But for 50 amps, you need to use #6. It looks to me like what's there may be as small as #10. This is another big problem that you will solve by replacing the SO cable.
As far as the distribution panel goes, yes, it needs clean-up, but I've seen worse. One thing you can do without having to tear out mis-colored wires is to get yourself some colored electrician's tape in black, red, white, and green. The code allows you to mark wires with an inch or so of colored tape at each end.
With all due deference to HighTechRedneck, blue is an allowable color for hot wires. In fact, my system uses three hots from the ATS to the main panel, and I've chosen black, red, and blue (only two of the three can be energized at once). But green must always be ground, and white must always be neutral.
The transfer switch common-gang wiring also looks to me to be too small -- when you replace the SO, I would also make sure these three wires are #6, and properly color-coded. It's hard to tell from the photo what the ampacity of those contactors is. If you want a 50-amp coach, and you replace the SO with #6, you should make sure the ATS is also up to the task. If it's a 30-amp model, change it out. The alternative is to protect the whole shebang with 30-amp breakers upstream of the ATS. That would, of course, limit you to using only 7,200 watts of your 14,000 watt generator.
The main feed to the distribution panel (which you will replace based on my first recommendation, above) looks to be going in to a 100-amp two-pole breaker. You need to replace this breaker with a 50-amp (or 30-amp, if you chose to go that route) model. About $15.
Lastly, the Marinco 50-amp, 240/120-volt shore power inlet you have described is a perfectly acceptable way to connect your shore cord to the coach. In fact, this is a common arrangement and shore power cables which mate with this connector are available off-the-shelf.
Keep the faith -- you'll get there.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: Sean on April 25, 2008, 07:52:23 AM
Bob,
Just to amplify/clarify some items:
Looking at the transfer switch, it's clear to me what's been done. Whoever wired things tried to save a bit of money, and used three-conductor SO cable (the stuff with the black rubber jacket) to wire 240-volts instead of the correct, four-conductor cable. It looks like they chose to use the green wire for neutral, and the black and white wires for the two hots.
This is the key problem you need to correct. The issue of the unsafe color code aside, there is also no ground wire in this arrangement. So your first step should be to remove the three-conductor cable, and replace it. Since it looks like you have conduit there already, I would replace the cable with individual THHN wires. You'll need black, red, white, and green.
I can't tell from the photo what gauge was used. But for 50 amps, you need to use #6. It looks to me like what's there may be as small as #10. This is another big problem that you will solve by replacing the SO cable.
As far as the distribution panel goes, yes, it needs clean-up, but I've seen worse. One thing you can do without having to tear out mis-colored wires is to get yourself some colored electrician's tape in black, red, white, and green. The code allows you to mark wires with an inch or so of colored tape at each end.
With all due deference to HighTechRedneck, blue is an allowable color for hot wires. In fact, my system uses three hots from the ATS to the main panel, and I've chosen black, red, and blue (only two of the three can be energized at once). But green must always be ground, and white must always be neutral.
The transfer switch common-gang wiring also looks to me to be too small -- when you replace the SO, I would also make sure these three wires are #6, and properly color-coded. It's hard to tell from the photo what the ampacity of those contactors is. If you want a 50-amp coach, and you replace the SO with #6, you should make sure the ATS is also up to the task. If it's a 30-amp model, change it out. The alternative is to protect the whole shebang with 30-amp breakers upstream of the ATS. That would, of course, limit you to using only 7,200 watts of your 14,000 watt generator.
The main feed to the distribution panel (which you will replace based on my first recommendation, above) looks to be going in to a 100-amp two-pole breaker. You need to replace this breaker with a 50-amp (or 30-amp, if you chose to go that route) model. About $15.
Lastly, the Marinco 50-amp, 240/120-volt shore power inlet you have described is a perfectly acceptable way to connect your shore cord to the coach. In fact, this is a common arrangement and shore power cables which mate with this connector are available off-the-shelf.
Keep the faith -- you'll get there.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
And There Bob, You have heard from one of the people I most respect in this undertaking.
Go for it, or as the Marines are wont to say, Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!..... Just don't improvise too much.
Dallas.
PS: It's not often I take this much interest in a project of the magnitude you have going, but this one is so full of opportunity to make it better than it ever was before. You are going to have one great conversion there. Keep a stiff upper lip and a song in your heart.
DF
30
Hi Sean,
According to my old chart you can use 4 #8 THHN wires for 50 amps in 3/4" conduit exposed to open air. It would require 1" conduit for 4 #6 THHN wires. I can't tell what size conduit is there now, but if it is 3/4" he would have to change to 1" for 4 #6 wires. My chart is based on the 1993 NEC so it may not be valid anymore.
My guess is that the transfer switch is rated for 50 amps since it has 3 pole contactors, only 2 pole contactors would be needed for 30 amps. But, what do I know?
I see many thing wrong with the wiring in Bob's bus and it was obviously not done by a professional. However, with help from the members of this board I'm sure it can be corrected.
Thanks, Sam 4106
Bob,
There are just so many wiring problems I see from just two pictures you posted that I think a complete rewiring job is in order. Don't let that throw you, it's not that big a deal, just a new learning curve if you are not knowledgeable in that area.
Hard to tell but it looks like the lower left breaker is rated at 100 amps but the wire feeding it is no where near large enough.
Some of the wiring is in pipe but it appears to be thin wall pvc water pipe, not electrical conduit and not properly connected to the box.
Just as in the bus wiring, it might be simpler to just rewire rather than try to figure out what those before you might have done.
Good luck, wish I was close enough to help.
Len
Quote from: Dallas on April 25, 2008, 08:22:36 AM
And There Bob, You have heard from one of the people I most respect in this undertaking.
Thanks, Dallas. It's nice to feel appreciated.
Quote from: Sam 4106 on April 25, 2008, 09:09:39 AM
According to my old chart you can use 4 #8 THHN wires for 50 amps in 3/4" conduit exposed to open air. It would require 1" conduit for 4 #6 THHN wires. I can't tell what size conduit is there now, but if it is 3/4" he would have to change to 1" for 4 #6 wires. My chart is based on the 1993 NEC so it may not be valid anymore.
Sam, I'm sorry to say that one of the things I no longer have room for on the bus is the enormous NEC handbook which I used extensively during my conversion. So I ditched it. I worked from the '99 code, which was in force when I started. When I ran the numbers, I came up with #6 for 50 amps based on the required deratings for fill. I would not go less than that, although #8 is fine when run "free in air" (a really theoretical number, since, aside from overhead power distribution lines, nothing is ever permitted to be run free in air). Most of the charts I have agree with this.
Remember that the NEC itself does not specify minimum wire gauge for any application -- it merely states an upper limit on ampacity based on insulation type (e.g. THHN, THNN), raceway fill, and other factors. It's up to the engineer/installer to do the right math.
Quote
My guess is that the transfer switch is rated for 50 amps since it has 3 pole contactors, only 2 pole contactors would be needed for 30 amps. But, what do I know?
Well, if it was purchased from an RV dealer for RV applications, you are right. But there are three-wire (240/120-volt) transfer switches rated at 30-amps, because that is a common size for residential backup power use. So just the number of poles alone is not a sufficient indicator of the rating of the switch.
The entire assembly, as a transfer switch, should be rated and marked either on the cover or somewhere inside the box. Beyond that, the three-phase reversing motor starter upon which the ATS is based (what those three-pole contactors are really made for) will have a rating stamped on it someplace, but it may be in HP, or so many amps each for IE-1, -2, -3, and -4 usage. In order to translate that into a rating for ATS use in a single-phase, mixed-use, mostly-resistive application, you need to do some conversions.
Given how sloppy the rest of the electrical work is, and how many corners were cut to save a penny, I can't rule out the possibility that the installer used a 30-amp model where a 50- was really called for. They are widely available.
Quote from: Len Silva on April 25, 2008, 11:49:55 AM
Hard to tell but it looks like the lower left breaker is rated at 100 amps but the wire feeding it is no where near large enough.
Is there an echo in here? ;)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: Sean on April 25, 2008, 01:26:01 PM
Quote from: Len Silva on April 25, 2008, 11:49:55 AM
Hard to tell but it looks like the lower left breaker is rated at 100 amps but the wire feeding it is no where near large enough.
Is there an echo in here? ;)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Not the first time I stuck my nose into a conversation without listening to what everyone else was saying. :-[
does this nean it is wired right?
3 to the switch and one to ground?
picture 2
bottom of the diagram on switch
i do see they did not use the same colors as the diagram.
Hi Bob,
This is wired for 30 amp and is correct. Is this what your trying to find out?
If it were 50 amp, your green wires would be connected to the grounding block in the box and a White nutral would be where your
green ground is now along with a Red on L2.
Hope this helps
Nick-
Bob,
All your diagrams are for 50 amp.. So, NO, you are not wired correctly if you are thinking 50amp..
Just 30amp.
Nick-
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on April 27, 2008, 07:41:01 PM
This is wired for 30 amp and is correct. ...
If it were 50 amp, your green wires would be connected to the grounding block in the box and a White nutral would be where your
green ground is now along with a Red on L2.
Nick, I beg to differ with you.
That's what it would
seem from the colors. However, if you go back to the original photos in his earlier posts, you will see that
- The black wire feeds one side of a 100-amp, 240-volt, two-pole breaker.
- The white wire feeds the other pole of that same breaker. (!!!)
- The green wire is feeding the neutral bus.
- The application is 240-volts.
As I wrote in my earlier post, what has apparently happened here is someone cheated and used xx/3 SO to wire 240-volts, and omitted the ground. The colors are dangerously wrong.
Bob: Yes, you should rewire the switch according to the color code indicated on the diagram. As I wrote earlier, use #6 THHN wire if you intend to carry 50 amps.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
I think they had tried to wire it right but used the wrong colors and grounded it at the other end of the cord where is cam into the bus. I found the other end of the 3 wire #6 and it had a 4th wire wraped around it going to the frame of the bus.
What is THHN wire?
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 27, 2008, 07:51:33 PM
I think they had tried to wire it right but used the wrong colors and grounded it at the other end of the cord where is cam into the bus. I found the other end of the 3 wire #6 and it had a 4th wire wraped around it going to the frame of the bus.
Bob, you need to have, in addition to the frame ground, an individual ground wire that runs along with the hots and neutral the entire distance. So you will still need four #6 wires all the way from the shore input (and generator) to the ATS, then from the ATS to a ground bus in your panel.
The isolated bus bars in the panel should be reserved for neutral use. I recommend you install an additional bus bar for grounds.
The issue of incorrect colors downstream also needs to be addressed -- I see many green (and some blue!) wires connected to what ought to be the neutral bus.
Quote
What is THHN wire?
THHN is a type of insulation. When you go to Home Depot and ask for it, they will know what it is. THHN is very thin for the amount of protection it provides, which is why it is favored for this type of application. It is a flame-retardent, heat-resistant thermoplastic.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
some one though that the wire was run inside plastic conduit.
Nope it is hanging every where and tied to every thing there is to tie it to.
The plastic pipe looks like it might have been water pipe at one time.
the way the wires are tied to every ting it would be a night mare to rewire the bus with out taking most of the conversion out and starting all over again. i amnot where I can do that. I am going to have to find a way to live with what is already there some how.
I will see about replaceing the wires from the shore plug and the genset but I am not too sure about some of the rest. I am not into electracil.
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 27, 2008, 08:15:09 PM
some one though that the wire was run inside plastic conduit.
Nope it is hanging every where and tied to every thing there is to tie it to.
The plastic pipe looks like it might have been water pipe at one time.
the way the wires are tied to every ting it would be a night mare to rewire the bus with out taking most of the conversion out and starting all over again. i amnot where I can do that. I am going to have to find a way to live with what is already there some how.
I will see about replaceing the wires from the shore plug and the genset but I am not too sure about some of the rest. I am not into electracil.
That said, in my opinion, your best bet will be, as someone suggested, identify each wire and mark each end of it with the standard color using vinyl tape. The easiest way to track each wire will be to get a wire tracer. For example http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?jspStoreDir=hdus&catalogId=10053&productId=100192834 (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?jspStoreDir=hdus&catalogId=10053&productId=100192834)
Since one breaker may go several places, my approach would be to attach the signal generator to the distribution panel end of a wire, then find all the places it goes. At each location pull the wire out and mark it. Then mark the other end. Since you are going to all this trouble, take it one step further, on the tape for each wire, use a number to identify the wire (the number being unique to that wire). You could also then setup a sheet with all the numbered wires listed, identifying where each one goes to. Using that you could draw up a schematic of the wiring that could prove very useful if you ever have to troubleshoot it in the future.
While doing this, be sure to sanity check it to make sure that neutral always goes to neutral, hot always goes to hot and ground always goes to ground. Likewise on 240 legs make sure that leg one stays leg one throughout and leg two stays leg two throughout.
Regarding color codes, I'll take Sean's expertise on blue being a valid color in standard premise wiring, I just wasn't aware of its use on anything but 3-phase wiring. The universal premise wiring colors I have always been familiar with are:
110 volt wiring:
Black = hot
White = neutral
Green = ground
240 volt wiring:
Black = hot 1
Red = hot 2
White = neutral
Green = ground
Thanks I will have to try some thing in that line.
The breaker box is well labeled when I put the cover back in.
i think the tape should make a difference and hopefully I can manage to not have to distroy every thing to do it.
Thanks for the tip on Home Depot I have been wondering where to get some ting like that.
Quote from: Sean on April 27, 2008, 07:48:52 PM
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on April 27, 2008, 07:41:01 PM
This is wired for 30 amp and is correct. ...
If it were 50 amp, your green wires would be connected to the grounding block in the box and a White nutral would be where your
green ground is now along with a Red on L2.
Nick, I beg to differ with you.
That's what it would seem from the colors. However, if you go back to the original photos in his earlier posts, you will see that
- The black wire feeds one side of a 100-amp, 240-volt, two-pole breaker.
- The white wire feeds the other pole of that same breaker. (!!!)
- The green wire is feeding the neutral bus.
- The application is 240-volts.
As I wrote in my earlier post, what has apparently happened here is someone cheated and used xx/3 SO to wire 240-volts, and omitted the ground. The colors are dangerously wrong.
Bob: Yes, you should rewire the switch according to the color code indicated on the diagram. As I wrote earlier, use #6 THHN wire if you intend to carry 50 amps.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Yes, Your right.
This wiring is more then wrong and would fool many.
Bob,
It may be worth it to start over with proper materials.
Nick-
Isn't there another Busnut in Fort Worth that can help Bob out? There is so much wrong here that it is really scary. If the obvious in your face wiring is so bad, how about what you can't see? No doubt in my mind that the fire was most likely from bad wiring and will happen again.
Bob, I sympathize with your situation and wish I could help. Electrical work, both low and high voltage has a learning curve like everything else, but you have to get a handle on it. Except for neutral bonding issues, there is very little in RV wiring that differs from house wiring. Lots of books out there and not that difficult.
Look for articles by George Meyers, Dave Galey, David Smeed and others. Study Sean and Gumpy's websites. You will soon have your BA in Busconversionism (these guys all have PhD.'s)
If you are truly in over your head, either financially or capability, then dump it. Without a major rewiring that bus will burn again.
Len
Quote from: Len Silva on April 28, 2008, 06:07:01 AM
Isn't there another Busnut in Fort Worth that can help Bob out? There is so much wrong here that it is really scary. If the obvious in your face wiring is so bad, how about what you can't see? No doubt in my mind that the fire was most likely from bad wiring and will happen again.
Bob, I sympathize with your situation and wish I could help. Electrical work, both low and high voltage has a learning curve like everything else, but you have to get a handle on it. Except for neutral bonding issues, there is very little in RV wiring that differs from house wiring. Lots of books out there and not that difficult.
Look for articles by George Meyers, Dave Galey, David Smeed and others. Study Sean and Gumpy's websites. You will soon have your BA in Busconversionism (these guys all have PhD.'s)
If you are truly in over your head, either financially or capability, then dump it. Without a major rewiring that bus will burn again.
Len
I tend to agree with your fear of the current wiring. If he was able to rewire that would be best. But I also feel that if Bob:
- traces each wire and identifies with correctly colored tape
- sanity checks the current connections
- corrects those that are wrongly connected
- replaces the incorrect breakers and undersized wire
It will be effectively a rewire without pulling new wires. The health of the wires themselves seem to be in fairly good condition. It does bother me that the loose individual wires aren't in conduit and given everything else, probably not grommeted where they pass through holes in metal.
Bob, I really wish I was able to be there to help you out with it. But read up as recommended, ask any questions here, patiently and diligently work the tracing/marking/correcting process and I think you'll be alright.
Bob,
Let me join the chorus here concerning doing it right. I have not done my own conversion from scratch but I have corrected a lot of things the original converter didn't do correctly. I also built "conversion" type sleepers for trucks before there were any 60" sleepers.
THIS IS YOUR AND YOUR FAMILIES LIVES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!
I can tell you from a fireman's standpoint and from personal experience, a fire in a motor vehicle goes downhill REAL fast. You have almost zero chance of saving the vehicle and a very good chance of losing you life unless you do everything right and in a hurry! Most folks can't do that when just waking up or when under pressure.
You CAN do this. The folks on this board are helping! The idea of tracing all the existing wiring is not that hard and can guarantee your safety in the long run. Make sure to check for chafing where the wiring punches thru walls and floors. If it can chafe, it will; it's just a matter of when.
As, has already been said, you have made unbelievable progress so far, don't give up. A lot of us are cheering you on, (ugly though we may be :P ) from the sidelines.
Make sure to document your work. When you are done, you can pull out the pics & say "Look what I did!"
TOM
Weel I got the 50 amp breakers for the breaker box today they are installed.
The wire that comes from the genset and the shore plug is 6-3 and should be 6-4 Or 6-3 (with a #8 for gound) if I understand correctly?
If I go in and run a #8 or #6 single wire from the genset and the shore plug will that work? Or will it all need to be in the same insluation? I priced the 6-4 (3 #6 Wires a 1 #8) wire (at $4.00 a foot) but could not find any today. I did find the some at home depot that was not fine stranded about 10 strades per wire with a solid ground but I felt what I have (Properly traced out and labeled with the color tape) with the #8 would be better am I wrong.
I did find a 50 power cord on e-bay and I have it on the way.
Is there such a thing as running a 120 power shore cord? For running the battery charger and maybe the ref?
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 28, 2008, 04:16:16 PM
The wire that comes from the genset and the shore plug is 6-3 and should be 6-4 Or 6-3 (with a #8 for gound) if I understand correctly?
If I go in and run a #8 or #6 single wire from the genset and the shore plug will that work? Or will it all need to be in the same insluation?
You really should run conduit and use four individual #6 THHN wires in the appropriate colors. 6/4 or 6/3-8/1 SO is not approved for permanent installation like this. And it's definitely bad practice to use the existing 6/3 SO and run a separate #6 or #8 alongside it.
If other types of conduit are hard to run, you can use what we in the biz call "smurf tube" -- technically known as "flexible electrical nonmetallic tubing", but so named because the popular brands are a vivid blue color reminiscent of the diminutive cartoon characters. This stuff is flexible, easy to cut, and easy to run. Once it's in place, run a fish through it and pull all four of your THHN in at once. "Pull lubricant" will be helpful for this much heavy wire. All available at HD or Lowe's.
I would remove and discard all the SO in the setup now (that's the stuff in the flexible black outer jacket). Save it for making shore cords and adapters, or heavy extension cords.
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Is there such a thing as running a 120 power shore cord? For running the battery charger and maybe the ref?
Yes. Typically, you use a "dogbone" adapter to connect your 50-amp, four-wire, 240/120-volt shore cord to a 30-amp, three-wire, 120-volt-only service. This "dogbone" connects both hot legs of the 50-amp cord to the single hot leg of the 30-amp service. You can get a further adapter to reduce the 30-amp "travel trailer" plug to a standard 15-amp household style. The key is to remember to switch off all loads in the coach except those that can be run on the single 30- or 15-amp service, otherwise you will trip the shore breaker.
We actually have a 10/3, 50' shore cord with a 15-amp plug on one end, and the Marinco 4-wire 50-amp female connector on the other, so we don't have to haul out the big cord when we are only using a 15-amp outlet.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Is #6 THHN wire the stuff I saw at HD (when getting the breakers) that had about 19 or so strands together?
Looked a little like romex, big wires that looked like they could flex and break easily? If so I guess that is why they run it in conduit.
Is bigger stranded wire better than the fine stranded in a bus?
Fine stranded wire is generally better than big stranded wire in a moving vehicle like a bus. I'm a bit surprised Sean recommended regular THHN, but he does have more experience than I do. Someone posted photos of wire testing recently and fine stranded UL1015 wire lasted much longer than solid or THHN wiire.
I used UL1015 stranded marine wire throughout my bus, but that was a choice I made. Others have used BX cable, Romex and THHN without burning up their buses. Proper grommeting and securing of the wire is probably more important than anything. The marine quadruplex cable I used with #6 wires is huge and expensive, but I only used a few feet between my transfer switch and breaker panel for now. I have about five feet left for my eventual shore power inlet.
Most RVs use Romex wire, but I do read lots of complaints about outlets that quit working. Some of that is due to the solid wire and some due to the extra thin cheap outlets they use in most RVs.
Quote from: Sean on April 28, 2008, 05:28:33 PM
This "dogbone" connects both hot legs of the 50-amp cord to the single hot leg of the 30-amp service.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean, how can you connect both hot legs of the 50 amp cord to the single hot leg of the 30 amp cord, since they are out of phase? Or am I missing something?
Richard
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on April 28, 2008, 06:43:20 PM
Quote from: Sean on April 28, 2008, 05:28:33 PM
This "dogbone" connects both hot legs of the 50-amp cord to the single hot leg of the 30-amp service.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean, how can you connect both hot legs of the 50 amp cord to the single hot leg of the 30 amp cord, since they are out of phase? Or am I missing something?
Richard
He's talking about hooking up a 50 amp wired coach to a 30 amp service. One hot leg coming from the post, connected to both hot legs of the coach.
Quote from: belfert on April 28, 2008, 06:25:58 PM
Fine stranded wire is generally better than big stranded wire in a moving vehicle like a bus. I'm a bit surprised Sean recommended regular THHN, but he does have more experience than I do. Someone posted photos of wire testing recently and fine stranded UL1015 wire lasted much longer than solid or THHN wiire.
OK, this is a "religious" debate, and I don't really want to re-hash it. My full opinion is pretty much well known on the boards, or you can go back and read my article in BCM.
The NEC allows only certain materials to be used for this type of wiring. My opinion is that, to be safe and within the letter of the law, you should stick to those materials. THHN is approved for the purpose.
Marine cable, generally, unless it also carries additional ratings, is not approved. Part of the reason for that is that there are no mating components specified to make a complete, rated system. Unless you also buy marine outlets, marine junction boxes, marine connectors, etc. etc. etc., you have no direction on how to assemble the components to make a properly secured and rated system, so you are proceeding from "common sense" alone.
UL1015, incidentally, is a specification for "hookup wire" or AWM -- Appliance Wiring Material. It is not a listing for current-carrying conductors in a 120-volt distribution system, unless accompanied by the additional required ratings.
Notwithstanding Gary's excellent photo essay on the metal-fatigue properties of larger stranding, the fact is that if you are subjecting your wiring to this type of movement, you have ignored the basic principles of proper securement as required by the code. I have never, ever in decades of working on these systems, seen a THHN wire, or even solid-center NM (e.g. Romex) fail from metal fatigue when it was properly secured.
Exceptions exist in a very few places. Chassis wiring, which attaches to flexible mounts, vibrating engines, etc., needs to be fine-strand. This is all low voltage and easy to acquire in proper ratings. Also, the pigtail connecting the generator to the first J-box on the coach frame needs to be stranded conductor and properly strain-relieved.
So I can not, in good conscience on this board or anywhere else, recommend a wiring material or method that does not conform to code. And, within code, THHN stranded-conductor wire run in conduit is, IMO, the very best code-compliant material to use in a coach.
My own coach is primarily wired, incidentally, with solid-conductor armored cable for most branch circuits.
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Most RVs use Romex wire, but I do read lots of complaints about outlets that quit working. Some of that is due to the solid wire and some due to the extra thin cheap outlets they use in most RVs.
Actually, I believe most of it is due to poor workmanship, a problem that different materials would not necessarily solve. Again, I have never seen personally nor heard anecdotally of an instance of NM cable (of which Romex® is one brand) failing in an RV of any kind. George Myers once challenged folks on this board to show him even a single example, and no one stepped up. Failures at connection points, such as the inexpensive self-terminating receptacles designed for use with NM that so many RV manufacturers use, are generally due to improper installation or securement/strain relief of the device and cable.
Bottom line: Stick to listed and approved materials and install them according to manufacturer's specifications with proper methods and tools, and your electrical installation will outlive the bus.
Buy a copy of the NEC, or copy the relevant pages at your local library, and stick to it. It's the law in all 50 states for a very, very good reason.
FWIW, and all the usual disclaimers.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
is this code that is mentioned from time to time the same one that is used when building stationary houses on foundations?
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 29, 2008, 01:08:46 AM
is this code that is mentioned from time to time the same one that is used when building stationary houses on foundations?
Yes, it is. The National Electric Code (NEC) specifies "installation of electric conductors and equipment within or on public and private buildings or other structures, including mobile homes, recreational vehicles ...."
Article 551 deals specifically with recreational vehicles and parks.
The other publication you should be familiar with is NFPA 1192 which covers propane, plumbing heating and cooling etc. for recreational vehicles.
I believe very strongly in following the codes and understanding the reasons for the requirements. I also believe that every article in the codes is a MEMORIAL TO SOMEONE WHO WAS KILLED OR INJURED by poor installation.
Len
Could not have said it better myself, Len.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
I added these to my collection this year...
NFPA 1192-2008 Edition (http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=119208&src=nfpa&order_src=A292) about $35US
and,
National Electric Code 2008 (NFPA 70-2008) (http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?category%5Fname=2008+National+Electrical+Code%26reg%3B&pid=7008SB&target%5Fpid=7008SB&src%5Fpid=&link%5Ftype=category&src=catalog) about $60US.
You can find the NEC 2008 edition on Amazon for about $30 used...
-Tim
Quote from: Sam 4106 on April 25, 2008, 09:09:39 AM
According to my old chart you can use 4 #8 THHN wires for 50 amps in 3/4" conduit exposed to open air. It would require 1" conduit for 4 #6 THHN wires. I can't tell what size conduit is there now, but if it is 3/4" he would have to change to 1" for 4 #6 wires. My chart is based on the 1993 NEC so it may not be valid anymore.
Sam and everyone,
In my previous response to this, I allowed that I no longer had a copy of the code, and so it was hard to answer. The reason I ditched my copy of the code was that it was an enormous book that simply did not fit on the bus with the entire rest of our lives.
I am happy to report that the NFPA now sells the code in a convenient, zero-space-requiring electronic format, and so I sprung the $75 today for a copy of the 2008 code.
And herewith is the answer: #8 THHN, accroding to table 310-16, is rated to carry 55 amps with not more than three current-carrying conductors in a conduit. HOWEVER, that rating only applies at 30°C (86°F). You need to apply a derating factor to this number as the temperature goes up. Above 104°F, #8 THHN is only rated for 47.85 amps, and above 113°F it is only good for 45.1 amps.
Bear in mind that this is the temperature at the conduit, not just the outside temperature. So even if you never travel or camp in temperatures over 104°, if the conduit runs, say, past the engine bay, where it can get to that temperature, you need to derate.
Since 104° is not really that high in the scheme of things (we've certainly been in those temperatures many, many times, and the wiring runs through places that get hotter still), you really need to go to #6 to be safe. #6 THHN is good for 61.5 amps all the way to 122°F.
Hope that clears things up.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: Sean on April 29, 2008, 07:32:37 PM
And herewith is the answer: #8 THHN, accroding to table 310-16, is rated to carry 55 amps with not more than three current-carrying conductors in a conduit. HOWEVER, that rating only applies at 30°C (86°F). You need to apply a derating factor to this number as the temperature goes up. Above 104°F, #8 THHN is only rated for 47.85 amps, and above 113°F it is only good for 45.1 amps.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
If this is the case I was planning on going with #6 any way but can I run 4 of them in the same conduit? Since what I have looks to be water pipe and only goes about an inch past the wall behind the switch I will need to install the conduit, it looks like 1 inch conduit?
I believe that HD has the THHN #6 3 wire with a solid unchoated wire for the ground will that work? Can I run it in conduit? Or is it necessary to run 4 completely separate # 6 wires?
Is it true code requires a breaker within 15 inches of the entrance receptacle.
How long of a power cord should I really need? Would 15 feet be too short? I have a 24 foot cord coming and I was thinking if I hard wire it into the switch and store it in the compartment (Same compartment just drivers side of the bus) below the bus across from the breaker switch box would this be in code? Or would I need to run it in conduit still?
Bob, see my reply to Chaz http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=8139.15
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 30, 2008, 12:25:04 AM
If this is the case I was planning on going with #6 any way but can I run 4 of them in the same conduit? Since what I have looks to be water pipe and only goes about an inch past the wall behind the switch I will need to install the conduit, it looks like 1 inch conduit?
I believe that HD has the THHN #6 3 wire with a solid uncoated wire for the ground will that work? Can I run it in conduit? Or is it necessary to run 4 completely separate # 6 wires?
Is it true code requires a breaker within 15 inches of the entrance receptacle.
How long of a power cord should I really need? Would 15 feet be too short? I have a 24 foot cord coming and I was thinking if I hard wire it into the switch and store it in the compartment (Same compartment just drivers side of the bus) below the bus across from the breaker switch box would this be in code? Or would I need to run it in conduit still?
Based on Sean's post, 1" conduit would be called for. For this high power run, I prefer individual #6 wires because it allows more air around them and when I bought mine the price difference was negligible. I don't think that is code mandated, but just my preference. I think Sean and Len have pretty well dismissed the 15" breaker code requirement. However like Len said it's not an bad idea, easy and fairly cheap to implement, especially since you already have the 50 amp breakers. Just move them to their own small main breaker box in the bay.
When I set mine up, I thought a 20' 50amp shore cord would be sufficient. Most of the time it has been. But there have been some sites where I had to add my dogbone/30amp extension cord and settle for the 30 amp connection.
Bob, You can run 4 #6 THHN in a 3/4" conduit. Also, you can reduce the size of the grounded conductor by up to 2 wire sizes, thus it could be #8 or #10.
So, 3 #6 and 1 #8 would work and would fit in a 3/4" conduit.
Len
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 30, 2008, 12:25:04 AM
If this is the case I was planning on going with #6 any way but can I run 4 of them in the same conduit? Since what I have looks to be water pipe and only goes about an inch past the wall behind the switch I will need to install the conduit, it looks like 1 inch conduit?
Not only can they be run in the same conduit, they
must be run in the same conduit.
If you run EMT (metal conduit), flexible metal conduit, or Schedule 40 PVC, you can get four #6 in a 3/4" pipe. If you run ENT (smurf tube), you'll need 1" for four #6. You might be able to do three #6 and one #8 in a 3/4" smurf tube -- someone would need to do the actual fill calculation since the tables only show same-sized conductor fill.
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I believe that HD has the THHN #6 3 wire with a solid unchoated wire for the ground will that work? Can I run it in conduit? Or is it necessary to run 4 completely separate # 6 wires?
If you're talking about a cord assembly, that's probably not what you want. If you're talking about NM ("Romex®") or armored cable such as BX, then those are fine and would be run without conduit, as long as they are secured and use proper fittings.
In conduit, you'll need to use separate insulated conductors.
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Is it true code requires a breaker within 15 inches of the entrance receptacle.
No, I think we've finally debunked this myth. I don't know where it started.
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How long of a power cord should I really need? Would 15 feet be too short? I have a 24 foot cord coming and I was thinking if I hard wire it into the switch and store it in the compartment (Same compartment just drivers side of the bus) below the bus across from the breaker switch box would this be in code?
If you hard-wire to a box in a compartment, 24" will be too short. Code now requires a 25' cord if it enters on the side of the bus within 15' of the rear. For every foot further forward than 15' your cable entrance is, you need to add another foot to the cord. Also, I can tell you from experience that you'll have trouble hooking up in a lot of places if you ignore this part of the code. We carry a 6-gauge, 50-amp, four-wire extension cord 50' long, in addition to our 25' shore cord, and we've needed to use it several times.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: Sean on April 30, 2008, 08:53:32 AM
If you're talking about NM ("Romex®") or armored cable such as BX, then those are fine and would be run without conduit, as long as they are secured and use proper fittings.
If I did use the BX I think it was I was looking at how should it be secured and what are the proper fittings? As you can tell I do not know much about this stuff.
Quote from: Sean on April 30, 2008, 08:53:32 AM
If you hard-wire to a box in a compartment, 24" will be too short. Code now requires a 25' cord if it enters on the side of the bus within 15' of the rear. For every foot further forward than 15' your cable entrance is, you need to add another foot to the cord. Also, I can tell you from experience that you'll have trouble hooking up in a lot of places if you ignore this part of the code. We carry a 6-gauge, 50-amp, four-wire extension cord 50' long, in addition to our 25' shore cord, and we've needed to use it several times.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Looks like I bought a 24 foot 6/4 with 50 amp plug, that I will need to make a extention cord out of. I guess I can go a head and buy the 36 footer I was looking at and have what I might need then.
Looks like I am going to have to slow down on this project and let the cash catch up a little. Mama is not going to like it.
Actually, I don't think BX exists any longer. You are looking for type MC (metal clad) which comes in both steel and aluminum jacket. The aluminum is much easier to work with, the steel is more protective from crushing forces. There is also a limited bend radius when using this. You can finf type MC and the proper fitting at HD
Quote from: Bob Gil on April 30, 2008, 10:49:32 AM
Looks like I bought a 24 foot 6/4 with 50 amp plug, that I will need to make a extension cord out of. I guess I can go a head and buy the 36 footer I was looking at and have what I might need then.
Looks like I am going to have to slow down on this project and let the cash catch up a little. Mama is not going to like it.
If I may suggest, use the 24' one for now. Get the longer one later. Not that hard to switch them later. Try to keep working on it, even if slower. That way you still make progress and you don't lose interest. If you can get it to a point where it is
safely usable, take it out for a weekend, even if only to a local campground. Enjoy it. That will refresh your enthusiasm for it.
Bob, In all my years of travel I do not think I ever needed the full 25 foot of the 50 amp shore cord I had. I can assure you that the majority of campgrounds that you will visit that the camp ground outlet will be closer than 25 ft.
Richard
I am trying to get some ting done with this thing. It seams like the more I do the behinder I get. All I do is find stuff that I was not expecting to find that will have to be delt with before I can do some thing else.
I have gotten the burn't part out of the engine compartment, and replaced some of the wood in the front of it. I have the alumin sheet to put up over it then i can start mounting the hard ware to start the engine compartment rewire.
I have got the material to rebuild the bed after I get that done the way I want it.
I hope to get the electrical where I can pulg it up and run the ref a little and maybe a radio and such.
I has been a slow go not knowing what I was up against. I still have not found any info on the gauges for the dash. Hope I can find out some thing before I get that far along. Hope I get there with in the next week.
Quote from: Len Silva on April 30, 2008, 11:28:55 AM
Actually, I don't think BX exists any longer. You are looking for type MC (metal clad) which comes in both steel and aluminum jacket. The aluminum is much easier to work with, the steel is more protective from crushing forces. There is also a limited bend radius when using this. You can finf type MC and the proper fitting at HD
Sorry -- it's a trap that even I, code-weenie that I am, fall into. I was using the older term BX to refer generically to both MC and AC types of cable (metal-clad and armored). The principle difference between those is the use of the cladding for safety ground on AC (and the old-style BX) vs. an included ground conductor in MC. For this reason, MC is preferable, IMO.
And, yes, fittings for both are available wherever the cable is sold. The package will say right on it what cable it is approved to work with.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on April 30, 2008, 02:47:45 PM
If I may suggest, use the 24' one for now. Get the longer one later. Not that hard to switch them later.
I agree with this 100%. Especially if you go ahead and use a "separable" cord arrangement such as with the Marinco inlet we discussed. We're only talking about a foot difference, and the older code only called for 23' anyway.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
I don't think anyone is going around RV campgrounds with a tape measure checking the length of power cords. Who exactly would enforce the NEC for RVs anyhow?
Most states and/or municipalities incorporate the NEC into their building code, but for residential inspections are generally only done during new construction or an addition. Changes in the NEC generally don't have to be retrofitted into single family existing homes except when the city requires code inspections at the time of sale.
Quote from: belfert on April 30, 2008, 05:30:25 PM
I don't think anyone is going around RV campgrounds with a tape measure checking the length of power cords. Who exactly would enforce the NEC for RVs anyhow?
As I have written before, generally no one. However, if you ever sell your coach, the buyer can sue you for failing to follow codes, especially if they experience some kind of loss such as a fire.
For that matter, your insurance company can deny claims if they result from your willful failure to comply with applicable codes.
For that reason, I always recommend people follow all codes in force at the time of their conversion, even if they never expect it to impact the way they plan to use the coach.
FWIW.
-Sean