My friend can weld, but he has no welder. I'm thinking that buying an inexpensive used MIG welder would be better than hiring a welder. I can always resell the welder when done.
Are any of the cheap 110 volt MIG welders any good? Campbell-Hausfeld has some really inexpensive models. I really don't want to spend the money on a big 220 volt model unless I can be reasonably assured of selling it again for most of the my money back.
I am only looking at welding in some pieces of 3/16" thick steel tube so I can cover over windows and have something to rivet into.
Brian Elfert
I used to sell CH welders. They are garbage. Only really any good for sheet metal work and then they won't do a real decent job. Lincoln, Hobart and miller make a good 110V rig that will do 3/16. I sold my Hobart when I bought a 220V, 180A Thermal Dynamics and I regret it. The small hobart was much more portable. I did all the framing for reskinning on the bus with it.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a cheap CH or other brand, and wouldn't waste my money unless it is gas capable. If I were looking for a 110v unit, I'd look at the Millermatic 135.
And, I wouldn't sell it after I was done with my bus, but if you decide to go the Millermatic 135 route and still want to sell it, let me know. I wouldn't mind having a smaller, more portable 110v unit.
craig
Brian,
I bought one of the cheap CH migs that was gas capable. What a waste of money.
By the time I was working on the 4th roll of wire I had to change the liner, which caused it's own problems as CH uses a smaller liner than anyone else. I ended up buying the smallest Tweco liner I could find then force it into the hose. After that I tried welding some aluminum and found that the gas tube was perforated all along it's length.
My advise? Like Gumpy says, buy the Millermatic 135.
You'll also find that once you learn to use a welder, you'll never want to get rid of it. It just makes life a lot easier.
Welding is also not hard to learn, watch your friend, talk to some guys that can weld, try the gun yourself and practise, practise, practise.
soon you'll be welding like a pro.
Even with my crappy CH 90amp, I use it a lot.
Dallas
Hey Brian,
I've used a few of these little guys, and in my experience there are a few issues. (Note: this goes back a few years - the newest/biggest/bestest might be different).
1: Duty cycle. Some of these little fellers only have a 25% duty cycle, meaning that you can burn at max amps for maybe 5 minutes, then you need to let the little guy cool off for 15 minutes or so before you can go again. A little red light on the front of the unit comes on and she just quits workin' until it's cooled off enough to run again. Maybe not such a big problem - just gives you time to cut, fit, set up your next weld.
2: Flux core only. Often there is a "gas kit" that will let you add a purge gas (usually Nitrogen or Argon) available at additional cost. The basic machine will only run the Flux core wire. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Flux core is a little hot, and a little smoky and a little expensive - but with practice you can do nice work with it. The only downside is the possibility of "slag inclusion" (getting the flux down inside the weld), which you can learn to not do with some practice. This is not such an issue with a true Metal-Inert-Gas (MIG) process since there is no solid flux.
There is an old saying about making a skillful welder. Take a man of some intelligence, give him a little training, then chain him to a bench and make him weld-weld-weld until he's sick of it, and then make him weld some more. I believe there's some truth to that. I'd say that if you buy the little "suitcase welder" and some extra tubing and make the kids a swingset and mama a picnic table, you should get your hands trained and be ready to do some nice work on your bus.
Also - check in with the experts on this board. It think that sexy new bus of yours has some brains installed that might not like you striking an arc on them. Isn't there some stuff you need to unhook or isolate?
BTW – Ross, Gumpy and Dallas are right. CH is the Yugo of welding machines. Lincoln/Hobart/Miller are much much better machines and well worth the price diff. The resale will be a lot higher too. There's always a market for quality equipment, while a used CH welder would probably be worth more if you gutted the box and sold it as a really ugly briefcase.
FWIW -YMMV - Good luck.
Casper4104
Quote from: Casper4104 on June 06, 2006, 06:03:21 AM
Also - check in with the experts on this board. It think that sexy new bus of yours has some brains installed that might not like you striking an arc on them. Isn't there some stuff you need to unhook or isolate?
There are big warnings in the engine compartment to unhook the Vanner and pull the ECM fuses for engine and tranny before doing any welding. I will certainly do so as I don't need to replace a $2k ECM.
Brian Elfert
Quote from: belfert on June 06, 2006, 06:12:09 AM
Quote from: Casper4104 on June 06, 2006, 06:03:21 AM
Also - check in with the experts on this board. It think that sexy new bus of yours has some brains installed that might not like you striking an arc on them. Isn't there some stuff you need to unhook or isolate?
There are big warnings in the engine compartment to unhook the Vanner and pull the ECM fuses for engine and tranny before doing any welding. I will certainly do so as I don't need to replace a $2k ECM.
Brian Elfert
Poor grounding is usually what causes electronics to pop. If the welder is not grounded to the work properly, current will take the shortest path to ground and if that happens to be through your wiring, it can take out the computer. Always disconnect what you can, but also ground the welder as close to your work as you can. IE: If you're welding a trailer hitch, ground to the hitch you are working on, not the front bumper (I know, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea).
Okay, I won't buy one of the cheap 110 volt welders. The only reason I was looking at 110 volt is to save money, not because I can't do 220 volt. The downside to 220 volt is the welder is less portable.
I did some more research and it looks like by the time I get a welder, gas cylinder, and protective gear I would be better off just hiring the work out even if I sell the welder when done. I'm guessing $200 to get the work done, but I haven't actually taken the bus over to the welding shop for an estimate yet.
Who makes welders for Matco tools?
Brian Elfert
you can always rent a 220 unit from a rent all store. i cant bring home units from work, not because they are too big just management are (insert discriptive here). So i have from time to time rented a unit.
I had never welded before and a friend tried to teach me to weld. He has an older Craftsman. I couldn't get it to weld. All I got were little balls of molten metal everywhere no matter what I tried. I bought a Miller 175 (220 volt model) for around $650. I took it home, set it up, and welded. I moved aside and let a friend try it; he did fine too. I let another friend give it a shot, and she had a blast... and got a decent bead, too. The point is the other welders may work, but seemed to be much harder to use. In my case, so much harder that I couldn't accomplish anything until I got the Miller. Millers also have infinitely adjustable voltage and wire speed, which makes it a bit easier to tweak. I'd go ahead and buy a decent welder; I can't imagine owning and working on a bus without it. There's just too much metal involved to not have a welder, in my opinion. Another handy tool is a plasma cutter. The same friend loaned me his and it's great. It's been a life saver for cutting the aluminum skin for the windows, making the frames, and anything else involving cutting metal. Good luck.
David
I've got a litttle hobart "Handler" and for lightweight stuff it's not bad. But I also have a Miller 250 (220 volt) and the difference is quite clear. The Miller will do 1/4" plate with very good success.... the hobart will do thick sheetmetal well but that's about all. Plus stability, smoothness and weld bead are all much better with the Miller...
My shopmate has a Miller 400 and for anything over 3/16 it kicks the bottom off the little miller. The difference in weld quality is amazing.
So I'd say get a REAL good welder if you can afford it.. Lots of tools are great from Harbor freight but you shouldn't skimp on your welder.
FWIW
Gary
Brian,
The Millermatic 135 is a 110v unit... just not a cheap one. As pointed out, it's duty cycle is pretty low, but for your needs, it would be fine.
The big advantage is the portability. You can pick it up and carry it into the bus. Yes, adding gas costs a bit more. The smallest bottle is around $110 at Toll, and another $25 or so to fill. You can buy a bottle through Harbor Freight for less money and put it in Toll's system, and pay an inspection fee every 5 years or so.
I believe the Millermatic 135 comes gas ready, with regulator and hose. All you have to add is the gas.
craig
A good welding machine is the best & most fun tool you can buy.
If you doubt your welding ability, don't. Buy a good MIG welder, & practice welding. You can go to local manufacturing places & usually get free (or really cheap) metal to practice on. My Miller came with a video that made welding so easy to learn. I started on 1/4" thick to learn the puddle. Then I went to thinner stuff to learn how to control the heat & not blow large holes as often.
Welding allows so much more creativity in making things. It will allow you a little more independence too.
The welders at work told me that a Miller has the smoothest arc, but Lincoln & hobart are very good too. Mine is a Millermatic 172 & the only time I exceeded the duty cycle, the welder was in direct sunlight, it was 100 F & the welder was on max. I love my Miller ;D
You should talk to the local welder supply place, maybe they will have an off lease unit or know where to get an older unit.
I have heard that there are new inverter welders that are a fraction of the size & weight of the old copper wound units so they are really portable, but they are very pricey.
Before you buy a 'cheap' welder, see if it is repairable. A neighbor bought a lincoln from Home Depot, 2 years later, it died & he was told that since it was a 'homeowner' model, it was not designed to be repaired & it would cost more to fix than a new one.
Good luck
kyle4501
All good points above.
Just remember you can always use a 220v welder to do a small job, but you can't use the smaller 110v welder to do the big job.
Once you have a decent welder you will be amazed at how much you can fabricate, and how fun it is. ;D
A couple of projects, slides, battery trays etc...and the saved labor has paid for the unit.
Best of Luck
Cliff
Quote from: Floridacracker on June 06, 2006, 10:46:01 AM
All good points above.
Just remember you can always use a 220v welder to do a small job, but you can't use the smaller 110v welder to do the big job.
Cliff I hate to go against your thoughts here bud but I have a Miller Maxstar that runs on 110 OR 220 and to tell you the truth, when on 110 it welds damn nice using stick or rod. I also have a Lincoln mig welder that runs off 110 and uses gas or no gas and so far, using it with no gas has been very impressive as well on large metal jobs such as my frame for my generator. I used the Miller for making my tanks and hangers. I also used the lincoln for building my corn cooker and making many changes to my corn kettle all that consisted of using 1/4 inch steel. I say you can weld HD steel with te cheap 110 welders pretty darn good! Granted I paid 1100 bucks for the Miller and 200 for the linconl mig but that's a pretty cheap price to pay IMHO! :)
Ace
Ace,
Isn't the Maxstar a stick/ TIG welder? For somebody who's not welded before, I don't know that that would be a good recommendation. It also costs almost twice as much as a my Millermatic 175. As far as I know, stick and TIG is a whole different game than MIG welding. That's not to say I wouldn't like one, though!
David
Ace,
No problem!
I was talking about the 200.00 110v vs say 400.00-600.00 220v.
A small expense for alot more welder. In my opinion. ;)
I have just never used a 110 model that I felt was as good.
Maybe when you get into the 1000+ range there is a difference. ;D
Cliff
We use Millers of all types and sizes where I work and they are all great machines. We do have one lone cheap little Lincoln weldpac 100. It is an 110v welder that we run flux core wire in. It actually does a great job and I wouldn't hesitate owning one for around the house. 95% of successful welding is in the prep work. Clean off the paint, rust, grease, oil etc. and you will have a much easier time in getting a good weld no matter what type of welder you have. With that being said, I am a lazy welder and hate the prep work. If you are not going to clean your work, or you weld mostly old rusty farm equipment, you will need to use either stick or flux core wire. Also, if you are welding outside using gas, the slightest breeze will blow your shielding gas away and you will get a worthless weld. Find some old scrap and practice, it's a skill that comes in handy.
David the maxstar is indeed a stick or tig and you question if it's for someone that has never welded before? I would think it would be, since the operation itself is pretty easy. Plug it into a wall, switch the control knob to 110, ground the clamp, insert welding rod and weld away. Now as for tig? Yes, that's a whole new ball game! The maxstar is no bigger than a lunch box and light weight so to carry it in the bus makes it easy to store as well! If you ever learn to tig, you'll find that it is a lot cleaner as in very little to no sparks and no slag to chip away! It is a lot slower to do over migging! If your in a hurry, stay away from Tig. It calls for patience! :)
Ace
WARNING!
To save trouble welding with Miller 135...beaware this model come with gun & core cable with NO SET SCREW to make a good FULL TIME connection to carry current to your weld. Another word NO TENSION on cable while welding...or you will have internal connection problem.
I love Miller but that model 135 come with troubling holder set-up....cheap...sorry to say but any dealer will sell you a Teco or equivalent professional build holder upgrade.
ALL Miller 220v usage SET-SCREW connection
However. I think (old memory) Lincoln V has better cable???
I brought $250.00 upgrade to keep from stopping while welding due to poor internal core to holder connection.
All pro model cable have SET-SCREW type connection
Hobart is made by Miller.....so check dealer if it has SET-SCREW connection.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
I have a "Hobart Handler Model #140). I have been using it for 2 1/2 years, it is 110v, I use fluxless wire (#.035), I use (.045 tips), and (.045 lead). The machine comes set up with (.035) lead and this is too tight when the wire heats up. I have been using this machine for every aspect on my bus. This includes the Engine cradle which is the thickest metal on the Eagle I own. The reason for the (.035) wire for my entire job is that this wire is also used to weld 18 ga. sheet metal when needed also but the .035 wire lays a nice flat bead and can be used on very thing material also. You get less wire but have to run less weld to accomplish our project. I started out using a stick welder but the Eagle, (Rusted) framing burnt through all over the lot, even on metal not rusted. I welded over 200 lbs. of 1/8 - #6011 stick rod and that is a lot of welding also. Everyone knows I have replaced about 90% of my undercarriage frame now and have the rest to do. I have used up 11 (10 Lb. rolls) of wire to date and have not had one problem at this time yet with my Handler #140 and I run the heck out of this machine.
I have never used the gas with my welder even though I can. I am welding outside a lot and there is a lot of breeze and I want it that way for safety under the Eagle for good air. I am sure my Hobart #140 will run better even using gas in a controlled enviroment. I will be able to bring my Hobart with me on my bus road venture if and when I ever get to go. But right now I can pack her up, put her in the trunk and go to a friends house to help out if needed or another busnut project.
I use an extention cord for the welder only on a 30A circut, the extension cord is #12 wire in a 75 ft. lead length. I do a lot of welding, figure it out how far you can weld with 11 10lb. rolls of .035 wire!! That's a lot of welding. If my machine pukes on me now it doesn't owe me anything for the work it has done. The cost was about $450. If you have any problems, any at all they have the best tech people I have met on anything I ask for assistance for. I did own the Hobart #135 which is outdated now and they tried to make me happy with my purchase with new mother boards etc. and sent everything overnight express, FREE!! They convinced me to try out the #140 and we just traded machines even steven, and she has been pushing out the wire ever since.
This is only my personal experience about this machine, I know there is probably other better machines, but I just wanted to let you know of my experience with my Hobart and the great service they have if ever needed. I have probably used up more wire than the average home owner may use in a lifetime and she is still kicking. In fact I send reports to Hobart on the infield use ever so often, valuable information to them for their machine testing in the field.
Well enough for that subject from me!!
Hope it helps,
Gary
When I was looking for a mig welder a friend who welds for a living said this: Cheap welders have a lot in common with cheap women. Neither will run hot enough, and anything over light duty will send both on their way!!! He advised me to buy the Miller 185. 220v, good duty cycle. Seems like it was about $ 650.00
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on June 07, 2006, 06:49:29 PM
... I use fluxless wire (#.035), I use (.045 tips), and (.045 lead). ...
... I have never used the gas with my welder even though I can.
I don't understand. You said you were using fluxless wire, and not using gas. What are you using for shielding?
just curious, Grumpy are you this same grumpy? http://gumpydog.com/bus/ if so may i just say Well done, i found your blog last week and honestly i cant get enough of it. I keep checking it alot looking for more entries and pictures, its giving me a good foundation in what i need to do since i am probably going to end up with an mc9.
sorry to hyjack the thread guys, back on topic ;)
I have a Miller 185 and love it. I have welded some very heavy duty machinery with it. Have been using it about three years and it has really got a workout. Always use it with gas.
Richard
Quote from: Ericbsc on June 08, 2006, 05:08:12 AM
When I was looking for a mig welder a friend who welds for a living said this: Cheap welders have a lot in common with cheap women. Neither will run hot enough, and anything over light duty will send both on their way!!! He advised me to buy the Miller 185. 220v, good duty cycle. Seems like it was about $ 650.00
Quote from: coachcrazy on June 08, 2006, 06:50:33 AM
just curious, Grumpy are you this same grumpy? http://gumpydog.com/bus/ if so may i just say Well done, i found your blog last week and honestly i cant get enough of it. I keep checking it alot looking for more entries and pictures, its giving me a good foundation in what i need to do since i am probably going to end up with an mc9.
sorry to hyjack the thread guys, back on topic ;)
Well, sortof.... but to be honest, I'm not really grumpy, except when I have to drive in this freakin traffic, or deal with my family, or when the cat pukes on the carpet, or when I have to go to work, or when.. Ok, so maybe I am a bit grumpy. What about it?
Yeah, one and the same, without the "R". Updates on the website are few and far in between lately. I lost some of my momentum last year and have been trying to get it back. Maybe eventually I'll get some new stuff on. Haven't really done much on the bus for a year, though, but I have a lot of photos to organize and text to write.
MC9 is still a good choice for a conversion. There's still a bunch of them out there and there's a good base of parts and knowledge. Take your time and find a good one.
Hey Craig, I never really noticed there wasn't an "r". Oh well, live and learn! :)
Ace
I hear that a lot! >:(
Suppose there's anything to it?
Nah, from what I can tell and from what I've been told....you don't need no stinkin "r"!! :)
Ace
Someone told me you just did not know how to spell! LOL
Richard
Quote from: gumpy on June 09, 2006, 05:08:44 AM
I hear that a lot! >:(
Suppose there's anything to it?
I dunno. Lately I've been feeling pretty grumpy. I think it's cause I can't seem to get any time to work on my bus!
I was much happier when I was putting 40-60 hours a week into the bus. But now that it's semi functional, I have all these other things to do that got neglected over the last 5 years.
Craig, I have a SIL that I call 80-20. He is all enthusiastic to get a new project started and ends up getting it about 80% done and then another interesting project comes along and I think you can guess what happens to the other 20% of the first job. I am sure however, that this does not apply to you or any of the other busnuts on the board. LOL
Richard
Quote from: gumpy on June 09, 2006, 05:35:36 AM
I dunno. Lately I've been feeling pretty grumpy. I think it's cause I can't seem to get any time to work on my bus!
I was much happier when I was putting 40-60 hours a week into the bus. But now that it's semi functional, I have all these other things to do that got neglected over the last 5 years.
Wish I could get to 80%.
Sounds Like ADD! :D
Don't ask me how I know. ???
I have an old 110v Century welder with gas reg.( not tank though) that rarely gets used but it is better than no welder. Maybe I should plan it for the First 80% instead of the last 20% :D ;D
You'll remember after you take your Ritalin. ;D
Is that the green pills, or are they peas? (that's a great commercial).
i picked up a harbor freight 110 volt w/ gas (25% aargon) & it worked great, for a while...bought the 2 year warranty & took it back (gas flow stopped) & they discontinued that model!!! & nothing comparible to replace that model? so i ended up getting a lincoln electric for more than twice as much $$$, but you get what you pay for...the chopsaw & compressor & riveter i got at harbor freight all seem to be doing really good, but get a warranty with anything you pay over $50. for. i did have my doubts about 110 volt welders,(got certified on 220V) but i am getting great penetration (bevel) but then again i'm only weding on 16 guage.
you definitley want the gas, as flux is nasty welding & fumes.
I started this thread and I ended up borrowing a cheap Century welder from a friend. Another friend did the welding and said it really sucked.
i was going to buy a decent welder and learn how to weld, but my bus conversion budget got blown to heck by a repair bill that was double what I originally thought it would be.
Brian Elfert
Years ago I bought an 110v Century welder with gas regulator and a bottle of gas at Big Lots for $100. It was a refurbished unit. It works well enough for around the house. I mostly use flux core because I weld outside in the wind and the slightest breeze will blow the gas away. I weld more than the average person; at work I use some very nice Millers. We also have an inexpensive Lincoln weldpac 100. It is a portable 110v unit that we use flux core in. I think for the money that the Lincoln is a good machine. It gets abused; dropped, duty cycle ignored, overheated till the thermal breakers trip, etc. and it keeps on working. Millers are production machines. If you can afford one and let it sit around the house that's great. But for the average person it would be overkill. A good welder makes welding a little easier but practicing with the welder you have makes all the difference. After all this rambling I guess what I am trying to say is that I can tell the difference between a "cheep" machine and a "good" machine, but I can make a good weld even with that low end Century. Give someone who doesn't know how to weld a nice welder and they still cannot weld....Practice, practice, practice!