Yeah, I knew it was coming! But now that pesky $4 gal. diesel has crept into my neighborhood! No bus yet, but I think I'll start feeding the Mercedes WVO and see how it likes it. Can't deal with much at $4 per gal! God! I feel for the truckers and the charter operators! And all the rest of you BusNuts!
BusCrazyTom the Analog Dinosaur!
I paid $3.65 yesterday.
BC Tom,
I'm with you.... analog will never die. Became a tech in 60 in the USAF.
Brace yourself my friend. I heard that oil "futures" for 09 were going for $200/ barrel. That would translate to about $8/gal. I haven't verified that number for 09 but I know that there is no period in recorded history where the price of oil went down for longer than months. Always goes up cause they raise it only enuf to not start the "oil war" then wait a while then bump it again as much as they dare. The FED approves of their action so enthusiastically that we have given the domestic oil companies a 40 billion (i think) tax break since 2002. And in 2002 they had record profits even before the largess of the "new and improved" tax break. Sure its THEM...but it is US too. We need some special tax break so we can travel in our retirement...we deserve it and have earned it. Might be nice if we could give hobbyists a break, also. And those truckers.....gee whiz, are they ever taking it on the chin.
Oh well, sure wish I could still drink. After all....SOBRIETY IS A CRUTCH FOR THOSE THAT CAN"T TOLERATE ALCHOHOL.
\Be well and Happy,
John
Tom,
What MPG do you get with the Mercedes diesel?
fortunately truckes and bus operators just raise thier prices or have a fuel surcharge.
I also have thought about putting a SVO?WVO system on my MB, but at 1500.00 for what I deem a good reliable system for the cold belt.....plus time or labor to install I don;t know for as little as I drive the thing.
Wish I could on my Diesle PU but not willing to risj=k the powerplant on that one
Charles,
Getting around 28 city and 32-36 highway depending on how I drive the thing.(Usually like my family name was Earnhardt..its not) S-Class 350 series rod bender, does pretty good though as engine was rebuilt when I bought it.
Tekebird, Yes, the conversion is a bit pricey, but my diesel mechanic says he has some shortcuts he runs on his so I might try that if it looks safe to me. Never know about his crazy *** though
The truckers were stageing some protests around the country, have not heard anymore about that. Did they quit or is it not being reported on?
We the people hold the power to reduce prices.
This is what happens when you put oil men in the white house that have little or no regard for the american working man, the goverment shut down the oil drilling in us long ago, between this war and the gas prices we are doomed.
Frank allen
THOUGHT I WOULD ADD TO THE AGNOY, PORT ORCHARD , WASHINGTON. $4.29!!!!!!!!!!!
STEVE 5B........
Ok Steve, I'll shut up now! You've got it worse!
Tom
Check out the prices in my area..
Well I guess I won't complaining about $3.71 here in Oklahoma. Since we just went on a trip for Spring Break I need to fill the bus up again, but filling the bus up goes through the paycheck pretty quick. :P
Ghanson: That's funny as H! ROTFLMAO! I wish I had the one I have scanned, but its a bit too blue for the board, but funny as H too! Getting a "fill up" at Saddam and Osama's Neighborhood Exxon! A Jihad in Every Tank!
BusMom: I feel you pain, believe me.
BCT
I could only wish for diesel at $3.71. Most stations here in Minneapolis are at $3.89 or $3.94, but I expect higher prices with crude at $112.
My two trips are still on for this summer and fall. Taking the bus with 7 to 9 guys is less expensive than flying especially with a rental car. Driving in three seperate vehicles wouldn't cost any less by the time hotels are added.
BCT,
Just stay out of that cursed CITGO service station. ::) Those petro dollars are building schools and infrastructure in Venezuela. Hugo also antagonized the US and Arabs by "giving Home Heating Oil" to needy families in New York. THE COMMUNIST! :o He is just trying to stir up trouble with moves like that. And just look at the effect that his example has had on Peru's Indian indigenous population. ::) Crimmy! >:( Our only sane option is to stay the course and continue to over stuff EXXON and others with new and improved TAX BREAKS so they can pass the reduced costs along to the American consumer. ;D ;D ;D
Just plain dumbfounded,
John
Tom,
Great mileage for a large sedan.
Charles: I've always found the mileage of these cars to be exceptional by comparison, its just that it all gets out of hand at $4 per gal. at Saddam and Osama's Neighborhood Exxon! I even have a Cadillac Fleetwood that gets unbelievable mpg for a huge gasser.
BCT
A lot of gas stations aren't even corporate owned these days. The owner just pays a franchise fee to use the name.
That gas from your local Citgo station is unlikely to have been made by a Citgo refinery unless you have a Citgo refinery nearby. most gas stations just buy from the local terminal that in turn buys from the closest refinery. Generally, the only difference between the gas at various stations is the additive package.
You're as likely to buy Venezulan oil or gas from a Citgo refinery at any gas station as you are at a Citgo station.
I generally just buy from the lowest cost station as oil and gas production is so complex that in many cases the company with the sign out front may see nothing more than a few pennies for a franchise fee when i make a purchase.
I am making a 1600 mile trip in a week to stay for a week. I was thinking of driving 55 to save fuel but I have to cross the Mojave desert and worse between AZ and CA.
I CAN'T DRIVE 55!!@!!!!
So I guess it will be at least a $1,000 fuel bill. BUT-- no motels with questionable drug residue and wild sex parties. And we can cook in the bus and sleep in our own air bed (just like the one at home). And our Jack Russells will be happier. Oh, well, money is tight but I can't give up my comfortable bus conversion.
Geoff.......That's the spirit! ;D
Geoff,
Good luck with your trip. I hope you never have to give up your bus conversion. I'm still working hard to get mine even in the face of $4. gal diesel because it just fits the way I like to travel!
BCT
QuoteHuge Oil Reservoir May Lie Under Northern Plains
The U.S. Geological Survey calls it the largest continuous oil accumulation it has ever assessed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,349728,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,349728,00.html)
I hope they open that up and hang any environmentalist that gets in the way.
Any oil we find is nice, but 4.3 billion barrels is just over a 6 month supply for the USA. For the world it would last 6 to 8 weeks. We can hope, but I doubt the price is going down due to this.
Quote from: belfert on April 10, 2008, 07:20:35 PM
Any oil we find is nice, but 4.3 billion barrels is just over a 6 month supply for the USA. For the world it would last 6 to 8 weeks. We can hope, but I doubt the price is going down due to this.
Sadly, you're right. That isn't enough to drop the price much. All we can do is hope that the crude oil commodities market corrects and a bunch of speculators loose their homes, assets and dreams.
Belfert,
I still love ya, honest ;D "it doesn't matter what brand you buy" is soooo very misleading. >:( Just like "your single vote doesn't decide anything" :'(....the state meant is true at some level but at it's base it is missleading. Your vote DOES matter. ;D You buy at EXXON....EXXON gets the profit. You buy at CITGO....you understand. It does matter or their would be no brands. Whoever owns the local refinery gets a cut and if that is CITGO they get paid to refine and retail and pump the crude. Same for Texaco or EXXON. I am sure of this cause I read "ALL ABOUT IT IN READERS DIGEST(BIG PRINT)" ::)
There was a list of oil companies that ARE NOT ARAB. CITGO, Dutch Shell, ARCO and SINCLARE are the only ones I remember. But if you care you will boycott the Arabs. None of the 9/11 hijackers was Vz. or Dutch or Indonesian or African nor did they come from democracy's. Saudis mostly.
DinoD hit 4.39 here in Eugene, Orygun today. I built my in line agitator and received my test kit for making BioD today. I can get dewatered and filtered veggie grease for $1.05/gallon all day long. I can collect it for free and have a tanker trailer on the drawing board. "If you are following me you are breathing chinken fat that has been digested by a Detroit Diesel" will be my new bumper sticker.
I meant the part about still lov'in ya Belfert....the rest of this might be iffy.
your friend and fellow Knut,
John
JohnEd: Veggie grease here, dewatered and filtered to less than 5 microns is selling for $1.50 a gallon from the local recycler. I remember the "good ole days" when I thought 1.50 was high, but now it looks like the best thing going! May my Mercedes smell like Col. Sanders backside at that price, I won't care!
BCT
Quote from: JohnEd on April 10, 2008, 10:23:22 PM
Belfert,
I still love ya, honest ;D "it doesn't matter what brand you buy" is soooo very misleading. >:( Just like "your single vote doesn't decide anything" :'(....the state meant is true at some level but at it's base it is missleading. Your vote DOES matter. ;D You buy at EXXON....EXXON gets the profit. You buy at CITGO....you understand. It does matter or their would be no brands. Whoever owns the local refinery gets a cut and if that is CITGO they get paid to refine and retail and pump the crude. Same for Texaco or EXXON. I am sure of this cause I read "ALL ABOUT IT IN READERS DIGEST(BIG PRINT)" ::)
Do you truly believe that a Citgo, Exxon, or Texaco station really gets their gas from the company on the sign? There are two refineries in my area. One is independent and the other is Marathon. I don't think a Citgo station is spending money to truck gas from whereever the nearest Citgo owned refinery is.
I highly doubt the Citgo station can call up the refinery and ask that their gas be made from Veneluazan oil, especially since the refineries are fed by an oil pipeline from Canada. There is a huge tank farm locally and trucks pulling out of there deliver to all different gas stations. Some of the brand name stations have special additives added, but that is it.
I still stand by my claim that the gas you recieve at a brand name station is unlikey to be refined by the company on the sign and it is just as unlikely that the company on the sign provided 100% of the oil for that gas either. I find it hard to believe the company on the sign makes much profit if they neither provided the gasoline nor the oil to make it.
I rarely if ever go to Exxon, Citgo, or other big brands because the little guys most often are less expensive.
I'm interested to know whether WVO users in the States are actually as blatant about as implied by the 'bumper sticker' comment above; I am sure that your diesel & petrol when sold for use in road vehicles (as opposed to farm machinery etc) incorporates a 'fuel duty' tax component in it's price as it does here, so running a vehicle on the road using a 'home-made' fuel is technically tax evasion as the fuel duty hasn't been paid. In the UK there are 'fuel testing' vehicles running around that randomly stop drivers to test their fuel - in the past this was mainly to test for 'red' (off-road) diesel being used in road vehicles, but now they are testing much more for vehicles running on WVO. The chances of being stopped are fairly small, but that fact that you can tell by 'smell' when a vehicle is running on WVO must increase the risk. If you are stopped the consequences are quite major as the authorities take tax evasion very seriously. It isn't actually illegal to use WVO of course, but you need to be able to prove that you are measuring your usage and sending the appropriate fuel duty payments to the treasury.
The comments about buying WVO from local refineries, or collecting your own from restuarants etc are also interesting as that is something else you cannot do here - WVO is classed as hazardous waste, and you need a licence to transport it. I'm sure there are lots of people here using waste oil here in their vehicles, but both the people I know personally who do it both use NEW vegetable oil as it is a lot less hassle all round.
I wish things were as straightforward here as they seem to be the the States - but then again, I wish we could buy diesel for $4 a gallon too!
Jeremy
Yeah Jeremy, $4 a gal. would be a break for those of you in the U.K., as its been astronomical there forever. I remember my uncle was paying over $5 a gal. to gas his Range Rover in Africa in the 70's. Not sure about the tax implications of using WVO, but were a country of tax protestors anyway. As long as it will get me there. Tax me, he**, they should give us an environmental tax credit!
BCT
Quote from: belfert on April 11, 2008, 05:24:06 AM
Quote from: JohnEd on April 10, 2008, 10:23:22 PM
Belfert,
I still love ya, honest ;D "it doesn't matter what brand you buy" is soooo very misleading. >:( Just like "your single vote doesn't decide anything" :'(....the state meant is true at some level but at it's base it is missleading. Your vote DOES matter. ;D You buy at EXXON....EXXON gets the profit. You buy at CITGO....you understand. It does matter or their would be no brands. Whoever owns the local refinery gets a cut and if that is CITGO they get paid to refine and retail and pump the crude. Same for Texaco or EXXON. I am sure of this cause I read "ALL ABOUT IT IN READERS DIGEST(BIG PRINT)" ::)
Do you truly believe that a Citgo, Exxon, or Texaco station really gets their gas from the company on the sign? There are two refineries in my area. One is independent and the other is Marathon. I don't think a Citgo station is spending money to truck gas from whereever the nearest Citgo owned refinery is.
I highly doubt the Citgo station can call up the refinery and ask that their gas be made from Veneluazan oil, especially since the refineries are fed by an oil pipeline from Canada. There is a huge tank farm locally and trucks pulling out of there deliver to all different gas stations. Some of the brand name stations have special additives added, but that is it.
I still stand by my claim that the gas you recieve at a brand name station is unlikey to be refined by the company on the sign and it is just as unlikely that the company on the sign provided 100% of the oil for that gas either. I find it hard to believe the company on the sign makes much profit if they neither provided the gasoline nor the oil to make it.
I rarely if ever go to Exxon, Citgo, or other big brands because the little guys most often are less expensive.
You are right that the fuel coming out of a Citgo retail pump very well may not be from VZ oil or refined in a Citgo owned refinery. (I'm just using Citgo as an example) As you pointed out they buy from a nearest refinery. But they pay that refinery a sub wholesale distributor price based on a high volume purchasing contract. The retailer pays Citgo the wholesale price and their franchise fee for the brand name. So Citgo makes a substantial profit selling it to the retailer and gets the franchise fee.
Quote from: JohnEd on April 10, 2008, 10:23:22 PM
There was a list of oil companies that ARE NOT ARAB. CITGO, Dutch Shell, ARCO and SINCLARE are the only ones I remember. But if you care you will boycott the Arabs. None of the 9/11 hijackers was Vz. or Dutch or Indonesian or African nor did they come from democracy's. Saudis mostly.
Keep in mind that although Hugo Chavez has not launched any physical attacks on our country, he is very anti American (yes he gave some heating oil to poor Americans, I hope nobody believes it was out of friendship or concern). Within OPEC he actively lobbies to cut production to further raise prices for the U.S. Like Iran, he has directly referred to his oil as a weapon against the U.S. and our allies. In many ways, now that we have tightened security to the point of choking our own freedoms, the economic threats of Iran and Venezuela are more viably dangerous to the U.S. than the terrorists.
High Tech,
Your point about profit distribution resulting from retail sale is what I was trying to get across to Belfert and all. You said it much better than I. Thanks for clearing that up. :)
Hugo was the duly elected Pres of Vz. in a LANDSLIDE election. Down there, and in the rest of Latin America, it is an accepted fact that the CIA engineered his being taken captive and held prisoner in is own home with his family during a coup. He was taken by some of the Vz. Army generals that work closely with anti crime, drug and terrorism task forces that have the CIA as principles. Every country in North and South America immediately voiced strident and threatening objections to that criminal act against the legitimate and sovereign Gummint of Vz. Every Gummint save one holdout.....The U S of America, the supposed bastion of freedom in the known world and champion of democracy's everywhere. Sounds good on paper. I think it took all of 24 hours for every nation in Europe to add their unanimous protesting voice to the outrage. The generals backed down and released Hugo but the question of where did they get the funds and the "green light" for their treason was never answered only in our nation. After Hugo release all those supportive breathed a collective sigh of relief in the world press quotes. Our President, when told of Hugo release and return to his national office said only "well, I hope he has learned his lesson". Can anyone truly be befuddled as to why Hugo despises this administration and why our stock has taken another serious down turn in the Americas? Our President was quoted once as saying "he tried to kill my Daddy" about Saddam and a reported assassination attempt during our former President's visit to Arabia. Some say that he wanted to cancell the trip and Saddam just made good hyperboil as a reason. If you were Hugo or any of the others, would you be actively trying to get others to join you in anti US activity? Heck, we nearly killed the man because we didn't like his "domestic" oil policy. I am not a fan of Hugo's, but I simply despise this PROPAGANDA that people try to feed me and those that spread it make me sad. :( The cost a oil is a result of our missmanagement of our foreign affairs. These Gummint blunders do affect the price you and I pay at the pump. It is time for a new and sweeping change in our national policy that will bring more stability and lower fuel prices. We truly cannot afford what is currently going on.
I have traveled all over this planet while working for the Gummint and also as an American service man. I have NEVER encountered people that didn't admire Americans. None has ever impressed me as liking our Gummint no matter who was in power, on the other hand. I think the unscrupulous and criminal behaviors last a long long time in the minds of people. Never set foot in Arabia or Africa, though.
This rant, such as it is, is about oil prices and why they are out of control. This is only a very small part of the full deck of reasons but I think it is typical of the depth of the problem and how many things that happen outside our Great Nation affect all of us. $4.39/gallon...I am livid! >:(
Thanks for not calling me a COMMIE, :-*
John
COMMIE?!? John, I think you're attitude on the issue is correctly AMERICAN and proper! I support our military, but not a lot of things our Gov. is into. I have been taught that if you want people to leave you alone, you must leave them alone as well, and we're bad about messing in other nations business. Its come back to haunt us.
BCT
I find it hard to believe that government employees don't have better things to do than to look for folks using WVO as fuel. There just aren't enough people using WVO that the government is missing much tax revenue. The fines are probably so big because that is the only way the government can pay for the employees and their equipment. Don't some states exempt homemade fuel from fuel taxes for hundreds of gallons? I don't think this helps for the federal fuel tax.
Now, I do agree with them checking for off road diesel as that is a far bigger issue. If you drive on the road you need to pay for it. We have enough potholes already.
Edited to fix spellling
Gone to $4.28 here at Osamas' Exxon for dino diesel. And they no longer have biodiesel because thier supplier has decided to export it all at $6.00 per gallon. Nasty!
BCT
BCT,
Thank you. I do consider myself a Patriot. Irks me that people say any with a descending opinion "doesn't support the troops". I cannot see where they have not succeeded in everything they have been asked to do. The "mission Accomplished" statement was fact. At that time we had a strong following in Iraq. Could'a left hero's in the eyes of the world. They have won every day since then but the price in blood and National Treasure is repulsive. I think they are just dragging this out so they can fictionalize defeat as being caused by the next administration. Sound familiar? "We could won that was if we had just stuck it out". It is just a political tool to say that our military has lost anything. Our oil prices will be hiked because of the fairy tale of a lost war.
Someone said that the "truckers" will get their fuel costs back by simply raising the cost of shipping. The truth in that statement is that the "TRUCKING INDUSTRY" will recoup. The independent truckers, those brave American spirited entrepreneurs, are getting crushed by fuel costs. The rate of pay always LAGS their costs by many weeks. Those boys and girls are tying up freeways and plugging up towns with their rigs as a protest. Truckers are not a radical group.....they have a serious problem and we should be paying attention to their problem as we are all having it.
A couple of days ago I watched the principle CEO's of our oil industries testify before congress. :P The execs said that they "still need the $40 billion/year tax break" enacted a while ago cause their might be a "down turn in the industry in the future" that would depress profits. How do you spell GAUL? Is their any confusion remaining as to how these people can continue to rape us at the pump and at the same time walk off with our tax dollars as if they have an entitlement. The only thing I saw on their faces was arrogant indifference. I don't see the price we pay for diesel going down anytime soon. >:(
Fuel cost conversation, right? ;D
Love ya all,
John ever the optimist
Well,only cuz you ask, Mr. Webster spells it 'gall'. ;D Sorry, I just couldn't help it! :) :) :)
I'm of mixed opinion on the oil company tax breaks. On the one hand, no industry should as big as oil should get any tax breaks. On the other hand, the oil companies will figure out a way to raise prices if they pay more taxes. The oil companies would never reduce their profits to pay for anything. This would just end up as a hidden tax increase for consumers.
I am just thankful that aluminum prices are holding up. The old bus may not be a total loss yet.
Charles,
Now that is what I call perspective. ;D ;D ;D
John
Gyro,
Thats cool. 8) Don't pass up any others, also. ;) I used to feel a little sheepish about my absolutely abismal ability to spell. Especially considering I invariably placed in the highest 1 to 5 percentile and am a Suma Cum Laude grad. Turns out it is somthing you learn in about the fourth grade.....or you never learn it. At least according to educators I have spoken with. Even knowing that there is an "E" after the "M" in somthing matters not as it is invariably left out. :o And the chance that i might turn this around? At my age, absolutely ZERO. It's cool though. 8) Really, get me every chance you get. :)
John ( or is that Jon?)
God, if this keeps up, I'm going to have to make like an oil exec (or member of Congress) and raise my own salary! That is if I can get my clients to pay it....
BCT
Not to get swept up in endless political debate but less taxes are always a GOOD thing. It matters not if it is for you, the small business owner or the large corporation. The problem with oil is purely political in my eyes, from government inefficiencies to anti-capitalist countries we have to deal with. As far as Exxon and their 40B profit, remember they are a global company the US downstream earnings which covers the refining and sale of petroleum products was 4.1B down 130 million from 2006. Also take into consideration the taxes paid by Exxon 30B, more than the taxes paid by the bottom half of taxpayers 27.4B. Who is making out like a bandit here? You friendly Government. Who really pays for corporate taxes? You do.
Quote from: Charles in SC on April 11, 2008, 09:39:49 PM
I am just thankful that aluminum prices are holding up. The old bus may not be a total loss yet.
Curious what your local scrap dealer is paying for aluminum? I only got 65 cents a pound last weekend for some nice clean scrap aluminum. I know I have seen the price thay pay for aluminum cans as high as 96 cents a pound. I don't know if aluminum cans and aluminum scrap pay differently and didn't see the cans price last week.
Quote from: belfert on April 12, 2008, 06:42:37 AM
Quote from: Charles in SC on April 11, 2008, 09:39:49 PM
I am just thankful that aluminum prices are holding up. The old bus may not be a total loss yet.
Curious what your local scrap dealer is paying for aluminum? I only got 65 cents a pound last weekend for some nice clean scrap aluminum. I know I have seen the price thay pay for aluminum cans as high as 96 cents a pound. I don't know if aluminum cans and aluminum scrap pay differently and didn't see the cans price last week.
I know the owner of the shop we're using to do some work on my bus got over $1/pound on aluminum scrap about 2 weeks ago. First he strips it of all other metals, rubber, etc. As I understand it, if it isn't "cleaned" of other materials, it gets less. Also the price fluctuates constantly.
All this about whatever who you blame the cause of fuel costs gone up and will be going up just because we think our only fuel source is from nonindependent suppliers. Then before we say negative things about our president or whoever....do yourself a favor...read this actual energy consumption and cost report from around the world.
International Energy Price Information
PS...Look for "Graphs of Current International Crude Oil and Petroleum Product Prices" and click on your choice of fuel graphs......you will notice USA customers are paying only half of what world users pay. And yet we are crying for lower prices. Well, keep on crying, because it is not going to happen until USA uses noncrude oil products and farm produce crops.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html#Fuels
Greenhouse Gases
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/greenhouse/Chapter1.htm
Ethanol
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/renewable/ethanol.html
Biodiesel
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/renewable/biodiesel.html
Biomass
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/renewable/biomass.html
There is a whole new way to be nearly totally independent from outside of our home for transportation fuel. That is using Yull Brown's invention called Brown Gas (hydrogen/oxygen). That is MIND boggling but it is true.
Believe it or not...your wet cell battery in any of your vehicles are already producing hydrogen gases but with concentration of sulfuric acid content. In other words replace all the plates with SS 316 metal plates and replace sulfuric acid with clean water, now you have a hydrogen generator when DC voltage is applied to it, instead of a battery that produces DC power.
1) It is the only fuel that can be made from water
2) It is the only fuel that is lowest cost
3) It is the only fuel that can be made while being used....On Demand system
4) It is the only fuel that processes gases like our wet cell battery does
5) It is the only fuel that is nongreenhouse gases
6) It is the only fuel that puts back most of the water into the atmosphere
7) It is the only fuel that requires the least of the overall energy to produce it
8) It is the only fuel that is most overall healthy to the air that we breathe
Keep checking the update about alternative fuels in Green Topic.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
As usual, I'm confused, I spent a lot of time reading the material on the congressional hearings in regards to the oil company execs. One of their justifications to the high profits is that they have high operational costs, thats the part I'm confused about. Unless I'm mistaken I always assumed that profits were what was left after everything was paid, that profit was up and above operational cost. In my mind, profit is still profit. I guess I'm not very smart because I'm also trying to figure out the logic of paying farmers not to grow crops and yet we are importing wheat for the first time in our history, one farmer that we all know and love, David letterman, even got a check from the government to not grow crops, tho in his defense, he did donate it to charity so I guess thats ok then. Like I said, I'm not very smart but even in my feeble mind some of this doesn't make sence.
Quote from: Sojourner on April 12, 2008, 06:56:15 AM
All this about whatever who you blame the cause of fuel costs gone up and will be going up just because we think our only fuel source is from nonindependent suppliers. Then before we say negative things about our president or whoever....do yourself a favor...read this actual energy consumption and cost report from around the world.
International Energy Price Information
PS...Look for "Graphs of Current International Crude Oil and Petroleum Product Prices" and click on your choice of fuel graphs......you will notice USA customers are paying only half of what world users pay. And yet we are crying for lower prices. Well, keep on crying, because it is not going to happen until USA uses noncrude oil products and farm produce crops.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html#Fuels
Prices are only double in parts of the world because of taxes. I looked at the Excel spreadsheet from that website that lists gas prices supposedly excluding taxes and the USA prices are not much less than European prices.
I don't believe the USA price that excludes tax because they have it listed as $3.15. No way that is correct unless they are using San Francisco prices.
Most of the agreements for farmers not to grow crops are multi year. I've heard some are up to 10 years.
The USA had more farmland than it needed until biofuels came along. Wheat is up because less is being planted due to corn prices. This year less corn will be planted as farmers plant other more valuable crops so corn prices will probably go even higher.
Quote from: cody on April 12, 2008, 07:15:29 AM
One of their justifications to the high profits is that they have high operational costs, thats the part I'm confused about. Unless I'm mistaken I always assumed that profits were what was left after everything was paid, that profit was up and above operational cost. In my mind, profit is still profit.
Exactly my thoughts. Both the oil and pharmaceutical companies defend high profits by saying they have high overhead and many people accept it. But corporate profits are after expenses. Sometimes some of it is kept as an asset to apply to growth related expenses the next year, but generally the majority of it is paid to the investors and dividends.
Cody,
You are not alone in your confusion. Count me in, also.
Saw a TV special this past week. Seems that the "Shuttle disaster" so many years ago qualified a lot of farmers for "DISASTER RELIEF" because they lived in the western half of Texas. Now those guys got to let their land lay fallow and got checks for doing so. Those land owners hadn't farmed that land in 50 years but had let "tenant" farmers do so and charged them rent. The tenant farmers were complaining cause the owner made more money by kicking the tenants off. This was rice crop country and as you know there is a FOOD SHORTAGE in the world. Some of this crop would go to offset crops diverted to Bio fuels and yet more of it would go to MAKING Bio. We are giving tax dollars to BIG FARM LAND OWNERS while the small family farms are getting short shift. Sound like the OIL Industry and BIG Pharma? Cody, If this made sense to us it would mean we are one of them. I'll bet Dave applied for his payment because it would publicize the stupidity of this system and he gave it to charity cause he is that way. He has more millions than he will ever need.
There is a theory, proved of course, that the more you tax the rich, the harder they work to maintain their level of wealth. They make their money, in large part, by keeping us busy. ERGO! The crop thing proves the reverse is also true. We gave them a bundle and they stopped doing anything except spending the money. Those same people think we should stop food stamps cause it corrupts the poor....maybe. Sure works like that for the rich.
Give them a tax break for making more fuel available. That would bring down the cost of diesel and legitimize this thread.
Really confused...like most of you,
John
I just paid $3.99 a gallon for diesel in Locust NC. Locust is about 25 miles east of Charlotte. I bought my bus in 2004 and drove it home from Virginia Beach. I remember stopping along the way in Norfolk VA for my first fill up at $1.59 a gallon. That is a 150% increase in the price of diesel in less than 4 years. I sure wish my salary would increase at the same rate.
150 Gal. x $1.59 = $238.50
150 Gal. x $3.99 = $598.50 >:(
I have been looking into CNG. Seems that in Utah they pay 63 cents a gallon at the pump!! Here in California it is ~$2.20 at the pump, and there is only one place that I know of that you can get it. The airlport where big blue busses are running all over all the time with tanks on the roof! Oh, and taxi cab Ford big sedans are running CNG also. I notice a bus on Craigslist San Francisco right now that uses diesel or CNG. How is this possible? Maybe we should convert to CNG and buy fill stations?? Only problem is I have checked these fill stations and find that they cost $6K +/- !! All credibility of environmentalists is totally gone with this scenario here in Calfornia. Can you imagine such a price difference in CNG and insane mentality of forcing consumers to put in pumping stations at home in the name of saving the environment? Force might be a little strong, but when you realize you can make it yourself for ~90 cents a gallon, why would you go to the airport and spend $2.20 per gallon? To avoid having to buy the fill station of course, but then the deal is off as only airport fueling is bunk. In Utah on the other hand, there are several stations in Salt Lake, and Provo. They are buying CNG vehicles and converting big time over there. Now they are doing something about the environment and shaming the rest of the country!! Meantime there are plenty of people in our area driving these Priuses that according to what we have read, have been responsible for huge environmental damage from nickle plants in Canada. The report went on to indicate that it would be less expensive overall to buy and run a Hummer than to be a part of Prius polution!! It is interesting that as soon as the information came out on nickle, Toyota started running the Prius Stick commercials where we are told that these cars basically act like sticks and disappear back into nature with time!!! LOL!! Of course Honda beat everybody to the draw again and has the GX available with a Phil station that you can install at home. But you have to be willing to part with $26K or so, and in this failed economy, not many are stepping up to pay. So cheapest way out is to pump your own and convert an existing gasoline unit to be dual fuel and beat the system. This is what I am trying to do and have one wagon here that I will be working to modify. If anyone here is into CNG, it would be interesting to hear what you are doing, and ultimately a coach conversion would be fantastic. I know a lot about this, but am interested in anything more. Bill T.
Isn't the CNG fuel in Utah subsidized? Prices for CNG in Utah are set on a yearly basis.
On another forum I was reading of a guy living in Utah who bought a CNG Mercury Mystique to take advantage of cheap fuel as he has two filling stations close by.
My experience with CNG was at a fairgrounds and nobody was impressed by it. Power was down and the tanks needed to be filled twice a day. The vehicles only traveled at most 150 miles a day, but they traveled at very low speeds with lots of stops and starts plus they idled 10 minutes an hour.
Have not read any complaints on CNG groups that there is not enough power or distance. But you have to have large enough tanks. Right now they are dealing with 3600# pressure and I have heard they plan to go higher. Don't know about the rest of you here, but I will be converting one car here to stop this $50 drain every time I fill up this Suzuki GV here! That is a small unit, and I thought it was going to be a 30 mpg one, but can't get over 20 with it! I personally think you need to plan for 250 to 300 miles on a fill up, so that is the way I will approach this on a car that I will use locally. On longer hauls, better to more than double that to avoid a tow! Up to now my Honda Insight is the ONLY serious oil company killer. Less than 13 gallons from San Jose to Salt Lake, 65 mph over Donner and 75 to 80 all through Nevada and Utah. Try to beat that! You will spend a lot of power making hydrogen to beat that!! And there are guys who have gotten these things up to and better than 90 miles per gallon! That would be less than 10 gallons between here and Salt Lake! I am listening to any reasonable way out of this oil mess. Meantime doing what I can. Bill Thomas
The particular CNG conversion I was privy to was of quite old engines. Six old aircraft tugs from the 50s or 60s were converted along with four 1946 Chevrolet heavy duty truck chassis. The aircraft tugs pulled trailers full of people and the 1946 trucks had the cab and body removed and replaced with seats to haul people.
A modern vehicle designed for CNG probably isn't so bad for power.
These vehicles had way more CNG tankage than could possibly fit in a car. The tanks on the truck chassis weighed enough that they had to go back to dual rear wheels.
I would do CNG in a car if it was as cheap as Utah and I could find a filling station. Trips of any real distance could be a problem and my only other vehicle is my bus.
Well right now we are looking at carbon fiber tanks, and 3600 psi technology. CNG is almost half the price of a gallon of gas if you buy it here locally at the airport. And about 90 cents per gallon if you hook up to your house natural gas line with a home puming station. Trick is to have enough tank to do 400 miles with my Citroen wagon, and on a coach 1,000 miles. Each day oil goes up, makes it more sure that oil will disappear as a fuel sooner than so called experts expected. I can now go further on a gallon of gasoline than anyone else here unless they have the same unit. I have gone to Salt Lake City from San Jose California on less than 13 gallons of gasoline with my Honda Insight. Try that with a Prius. LOL!! And 65 mph over Donner Summit and 75 to 80 mph all through Nevada and Utah. Unaffected by plowed air from semis, and excellent comfort for such a small car! Truly incredible! But here is the crazy truth. The '04 is more fuel efficient when it comes to consumption per mass! And of course the '04 has to bow to the typical freight train that beats all! A clue in all of this is tire pressure or rolling resistance including air resisitance. Air resistance on a train is probably not a factor, but rolling resistance sure is and it would be interesting to know what the total on a typical frieght is. Individually per wheel it must be very low. Too bad we didn't have track instead of highway, but then we couldn't pass anyone. By the way, where did we go wrong by not building all vehicles like trains? Simple diesel generator with electric wheel power?? Probably transmission unions would no allow it? Seems to me we could do well with our coaches set up this way. Careful engineering would probably keep weight down and we could easily make them hybrids as we use dynamic braking to recharge battery banks. Fun to think about this and if someone here has the cash and wants to work with me on this, I would love to do it. Tired of air conditioning business and would love to get into something more intersting. LOL! Bill Thomas
Bill, I saw a company last week that runs a fleet of the CNG buses. He said the only downside is that you have to replace the plugs quite often and they aint cheep. Otherwise he was beeming ear to ear!
Jack
Saw a news report today that said oil prices were being kept high by the futures speculators, and that true demand should continue dropping and that we should expect some relief from these prices in fall 2008 to early 2009. Guess we'll wait and see. But for today its up at the pump again $4.37 xxx.
BCTom
Tom, I heard a report the other day that said demand is down in the US, which should make it go down...but demand in China and other parts of the world was us...therefore making us continue to pay more.
Ours just hit $4.059 in NC today!
Jack
Quote from: jackhartjr on April 16, 2008, 03:49:36 PM
Tom, I heard a report the other day that said demand is down in the US, which should make it go down...but demand in China and other parts of the world was us...therefore making us continue to pay more.
Ours just hit $4.059 in NC today!
Jack
That right there is what worries me. China and India are just coming online with petroleum use and they have over ten times our population. No matter how much we cut back, world wide total consumption will continue to climb. Everybody in the U.S. could drive a hybrid, all freight could be hauled on coal fired trains and all oil furnace heated homes could switch to other fuels, and the prices would probably continue to rise.
I read where Brazil a country that runs on bio- fuels now has the 3rd largest oil reserve in the world 43 billion barrels amazing how much oil there is now at over at $100 a barrel
With prices so high, everybody and their brother is out looking for oil and they are finding it. There are a lot of oil finding and pumping/extraction methods that are only viable at high prices.
I read of folks in Pennsylvania spending maybe $50,000 or $100,000 to reopen old wells thought to be pumped out. They may only pump a few thousand barrels, but at today's prices you don't need much to make money. There are wells only producing a few barrels a week that are left to pump. I don't see how they cover electricity and maintenance, but they still let them pump.