My, daughter sent me a a email about a tour bus belonging to Tejano singer Navaira crashed on loop 610 in Houston its a Eagle
www.khou.com
looks like he ran up onto the apex and the jesery wall too.
Hope they are better in the morning.
Oooph!
That was a hard hit. That Eagle is totaled..
Nick-
Saw the clip on CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/03/23/vo.tx.emilio.bus.crash.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/03/23/vo.tx.emilio.bus.crash.cnn)
Dang, and Iwas in Houston on Friday & Saturday looking for a cheap deal on a bus and missed this one by a day! That one will be a look buck fixer upper fer sure! LOL! ;D BK ;D
This is so sad. Several people injured.
I was in Houston Thursday and Friday, can understand why.
Paul
From a Human Tragedy Staindpoint This Is Awful... And Man that video on CNN was surreal, sad, lonely, and creepy, from an Eagle standpoint, the curtains blowing in the breeze out the door opening... Kind of reminded me of seeing a sunkin ship.
Too bad about dude being ejected. I'm sure the Eagle has one but my MC-8 has a seat belt but that was one hard, hard, blow. That hurts my feelings big time just seeing her there like that. You know he loved her. He seems like a nice enough dude and their music is really cool too. It's a shame that they say alcohol was probably a factor but to what extent they don't know yet. I'm not talking smack about dude because I don't know him but they said it, not me. It was 5:00 AM and he'd had a DWI charge once but got off with a fine and probation. Too bad nobody cared enough or knew enough to help him because he obviously has a problem. I can't help but to think if he had gone down over the first DWI he most probably would not have been there at that exact moment anyway. I've seen other wrecks as you all have but something about seeing her on that wall like that got to me.
I wish them all good luck and a speedy recovery.
Best Of Luck To All And Keep The Greasy Side Down And The Shiny Side Up!
Take Care,
Jeff :)
I'm still trying to figure out how the heck a bus comes apart like that. That photo looks like what a lot of motorhome accidents look like. It looks a chassis with a box fitted on it, but we all know Eagles are not built that way.
According to CNN, the singer was driving the bus at the time of the accident and he may not survive his injuries.
Quote from: belfert on March 24, 2008, 06:54:21 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how the heck a bus comes apart like that.
Moderately high speed, a crushable, bendable bus, and a fairly immovable object (median) even with the absorbing barriers. 30-40,000 lbs moving carries a lot of energy. When the front stops the back is still moving, pushing the front into/through whatever stopped it. That stored energy will bend, break, or shatter anything it goes through as it transfers to the "other" object.
It is sad. I hate to see stuff like that happen. It is all preventable.
- John
The bus may have been fragile due to rust issues. Anyone know what year model the Eagle is?
Older Eagles have major rust issues and that's how they look after being involved in accidents. Big pieces break off. Odd that the entrance door isn't more damaged?
Still, if you slam a 30K lb coach into a concrete wall at 70 MPH, something's going to move.
Rust notwithstanding.
JR
The KHOU story said he didn't have the proper license. Great, now DPS will be stopping every big motorhome or bus conversion on the hiway in Texas. Since it was his band bus (commercial in nature), it needed a driver with a class B CDL to be legal in TX. He probably had only a class C.
David
I can understand drivers hauling passengers for pay needing a CDL, but I'm not quite sure why a musician driving from gig to gig needs a CDL. Is the guy who DJs on the weekends and hauls a small trailer going to need a class A CDL soon?
In reality, we all should probably have some sort of special license short of a CDL to drive our monster RVs around. Air brakes are a whole different animal from hydraulic brakes both in use and upkeep, not to mention the extra braking distance.
JR, you can tell the bus didn't have any rust issues look at the siding and roof they are still straight and intact that was a big hit and the drivers area got the worst of it
Belfert
because the bus is used to transport the musician and/or band and they are compensated (paid,given food or drinks or any other compensation) then yes they need a commercial license to drive it. we fought that battle with the racing and our equipment. in the eyes of the law ANY vehicle used for a business purpose or is receiving compensation (even a trophy) is considered to be commercial and if over a certain wieght requires a specific license. they wanted to hit us up for not having a log book in our dually because it was a support vehicle to the race hauler.
steve
They all would have been up a creek if those impact absorbers hadn't have been there. I mean it is quiet obvious that he fell asleep going right into the split unless a mechanical issue came up. Here in Tennessee I do not have to have a CDL as it is titled as a motor home. To legally operate it here, you have to have a B endorsement on your license. I have an F endorsement from years ago when that is all a person needed to drive a semi. The For Hire endorsment applies to vehicles 24,000 lb. or less.
It doesn't matter what license anybody has if they're drunk and or asleep at the wheel...
Has anyone determined that the driver was drunk or asleep at the time of the accident or is that just conjecture? Have they ruled out a mechanical failure yet? Or my personal favorite a car diving in front of it.
I was wondering when something like this was going to happen and it is so sad to see that it has. We can't blame this tragedy on the bus but the operator as we see it now but everyone has to know these buses are not crash tested like they do the cars now. This is obviously an older Eagle which I know somewhat about but I also know Eagles are not the only buses built with this type of tubular framing. Some of your HIGH end buses also are built to this design.
There is not a bus built that could take that impact of that accident and not had severe damage, not one on the road that I know of! I am sure that the frame rust issues are in that bus and from mine in particular the front end is made of tubing that is about 1 1/2" square and the wall thickness is only about (.100) thick!! You take a brand new piece of tubing, lay it on concrete and while wearing safety glasses hit it square downward with a 16 lb. sledge hammer. It will crush!!!! The force of this hammer is no where near what was used in this accident. Even if this tubing was all new or "Doubled" like I am doing would not have prevented all this damage that happened. Again, this bus is not the only one built with that design and of that age and I know that not one converted bus driven on the road drive by us could of had any less severe accident than this one at 70 MPH! Do any of you on this BB'd really think your bus could of survived this accident???? Just curious!!
Driving defensively, sober, safely, "Slowly", is truly the best defense to prevent this from happening. Traveling 70 miles per hour just because it has a big engine etc. is ludicrous. I never drive over 60 even with my darn ole little S&S. I have tried to go 70 a couple of times and could feel the RV just floating all over you might say and tried to stop just for curiosity to see how much it took at 70 MPH!! Man, it took several hundred feet to stop dead and keep control. You guys drive as fast as you want pulling your toads behind and think everyone sees you coming and will make a hole for you, but when I see you creep up on my behind, you go around me. I could give a crap less how souped up your bus is, I'll get to my destination a little slower than you but I will be doing my best not to endanger anyone else or my family, or ME!!
I will be reworking my entire front end during this summer as the end of my frame restoration / rebuilding will be completed but no matter how much "Double" framing I will do this frame rebuilding and reinforcing will not prevent similar damage as this bus accident at this speed. With what I have done to my bus I feel my bus could roll over and not be hurt, from the floor level down that is, but a head on collision like this. Come on, get real.
This is my (.02) as usual, I can't blame the bus for this accident as I see it now but with age of our ole girls we better check them out closer.
You guys with them big ole 500 HP buses be sure to give me a beep of your horn as you pass me by at 80+ MPH and I wish you all safe travel and those in your path.
Gary
This is the latest from the local Houston news. ???
jlv
An officer at the scene of the accident Sunday said alcohol may have been a factor, but Bellaire Assistant Police Chief Byron Holloway said Monday there were no obvious signs of alcohol at the time of the crash.
Police took a blood sample to determine if Navaira was intoxicated, but the results wouldn't be available for a few weeks.
Holloway said the crash was probably a result of driver error or a mechanical problem.
"I think the blood analysis might tell the tale," Holloway said.
Holloway said it's also possible the singer fell asleep at the wheel.
"To operate a bus that size, that weight, he should've had a Class B driver's license," Holloway said.
Video: Emilio Navaira's tour bus crashes
Authorities believe Navaira wasn't wearing his seatbelt, but noted that a seatbelt is not required by law in buses.
Holloway said they don't believe the bus had a black box because of its age, but they are double-checking with the manufacturer.
The Texas Drivers Handbook
States,
A person who has a Texas Class "C" drivers license can drive a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight
rating of less than 26,001 pounds. Page 1-4 item-3
Also on page 1-7
Exemptions;Persons operating the following vehicles are exempt from a Commercial Driver License (CDL)
Item #4
States- A recreational vehicle that is driven for personal use:
So If your Converted Coach is less than 26,001 pounds GVW you will be OK with a Class "C" if it's more than
26,001 GVW you will need a class "B" Page 1-4 item #2.
jlv :P
I agree with Gary
I dont think any of our busses could survive a hit like that. that begs the question, what can we do to ours to make them handle a head on impact better? Gary, I would be interested in your thoughts as I have an Eagle also and am at the point in repairs where I can make changes easily. I NASCAR they have found that adding more steel and making it stiffer resulted in more injuries because the impact is not absorbed. has anyone thought about adding the bumper shocks that are on cars and trucks these days? is there someone on here with a better enginering knowledge that could look at a way to absorb and redirect the impacts? It seems that every bus I have seen in a front end impact did not do well. just my $.02.
steve
Quote from: roadrunnertex on March 25, 2008, 07:56:09 AM
So If your Converted Coach is less than 26,001 pounds GVW you will be OK with a Class "C" if it's more than
26,001 GVW you will need a class "B" Page 1-4 item #2.
jlv :P
In Texas. But here in Tennessee, no special license is required for me to drive my bus conversion titled as a motorhome with a GVWR of 36,000 pounds.
Steve,
I have not had the time to put the hours of thinking I normally do for every 5 ft. section of my bus for the front section yet of my bus like I have done over the past 6 years now this month. I cannot really say I have a direct thought of what to do with the front end of my Eagle at this time. I will do that soon but now that this door is open, I too am very open to any suggestions as to how to beef up our Eagles or any bus if we have a mind to for safety and I will do my absolute best for our personal bus.
I hope those conversions that have been changed such as Bill's Space shuttle could enlighten us how he beefed up his long front end for any impact like this we can consider and anyone with absolute photos will sure help. I am just looking for ideas to consider as more heads are better than just one and if I get to that point I am really happy with my design I promise to also post all information and photos as I normally do on my web site.
I don't care though what we do, an impact such as this one in this accident would still be devastating but if we do all we can to minimize this disaster then we are all ahead of the game you might say. Having control of your bus at all times no matter how fast it can go is an absolute priority. An accident can still happen perhaps through no fault of your own, (cut off, run off the road etc.) but having the speed at a safe travel speed can sure minimize this and also now with the darn fuel prices help make our trips a little more affordable.
Safety as always will always be my #1 priority, I have so much to learn how to drive etc. but I will when the time comes. Right now I want my bus to be as safe for many decades after I am gone that I can.
I am rambling on here now, but if you have any ideas you have incorporated in your conversions to minimize front end crashes that can be catastrophic and you have photos in particular please post this information so we can also achieve it for future use by us all.
Gary
Gary, if it were me doing it, I would setup as much energy absorption in the bumper and body panel sections of the front as feasible. Then build a subtle crash cage (hidden) for the front seat area including strong protection from behind for objects that get thrown forward (i.e. TV's, refrigerators, cupboards, etc). Also, shoulder belts in addition to lap belts are good.
As you pointed out, there isn't much that will help in a high speed crash with a bridge abutment or column. But these measures could help with lesser impacts.
I once saw an Eagle that had run into a bridge abutment right smack in front of the driver. The entire driver's area was pushed back several feet and the driver survived. I don't think any passengers sitting directly behind the driver would have made it.
So, I think, if you were trying to design for survival (in a conversion, not a seated bus), I would make the driver's area as strong as possible and intentionally weaken the next ten feet or so.
Len
Quote from: cody on March 25, 2008, 04:47:30 AM
... Or my personal favorite a car diving in front of it.
Like this one?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/03/25/driver-charged.html
At least no serious injuries in this case.
On 2 separate occasions I've had cars dive in front of me and then hit the brakes to grab an off ramp, both times I've had to hit my brakes hard to avoid running up their exhaust pipe. One time I had to hit the brakes and pull hard to the left and am still not sure how I missed that car, I can't understand how something thats 40 ft long and over 12 ft tall can become invisible, or do they think we can throw them around like a yo yo, I just don't know, expiring minds want to know.
Quote from: cody on March 25, 2008, 12:20:02 PM
... or do they think ...
In my opinion, the problem is they don't think at all before starting a maneuver with their car.
I was a passenger in a bus crash in 2002. We were on I-95 and traffic was awful. The cars would just whip in front of us leaving no room. It just so happened that a truck pulled right in front of us just as traffic was coming to a dead stop and the rest was history, especially since we were on a bridge. We pushed his truck into 4 other vehicles, totaled 3 of them. Luckily no one was severely injured. We were only traveling around 55 mph which helped us in the injury department. Most drivers do not carry any respect for large vehicles, they actually view us as in their way and an annoyance.
Quote from: hiwaycallin on March 25, 2008, 11:15:11 AM
Quote from: cody on March 25, 2008, 04:47:30 AM
... Or my personal favorite a car diving in front of it.
Like this one?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/03/25/driver-charged.html
And yet in this case the bus driver was charged. If he's telling the truth then that just ain't right. >:(
QuoteAnd yet in this case the bus driver was charged. If he's telling the truth then that just ain't right.
You make that split second decision every day when driving. You know that without an evasive manoeuvre, a collision is inevitable but the evasive manoeuvre may also cause an accident.
I dont think anybody said anything about this guy who has recked a bus 4 previous times, dont sound to me like he needs to ever be driving a bus. something wrong here
Frank Allen
4106
Was on the phone today with Craig Hanloh when the Texas DPS stopped in to ask them about the bus, apparently they were running the VIN and asking if it had seatbelts when manufactured. Craig, if I remember right, said it was a 1982 Model 10, stretched, widened, raised, you name it. They are hoping to get it after the accident investigation is over, to analyze the damage and perhaps learn from it.
In my opinion, for the speed and type of barrier they hit, the bus did pretty well. The guy might have been lucky his seatbelt was on, I haven't seen all the angles, but looks like that seat might have gotten crushed too.
Craig said the police suspect the driver might have been asleep, it was early morning after driving for awhile and after a performance - which usually means an after-performance party too! The driver is still out of it, they reduced his temperature to keep the swelling down in his brain, but were slowly raising it today.
Makes you wonder. By my own tracking, most of these accidents happen in the wee hours of the morning.
Todd
there was a time when I would drive all night to get wherever but finally got smart enough to just stop and sleep and then get going again after I am good and awake. mostly because I too noticed an awful lot of accidents early in the morning and have myself had a tough time concentrating. I decided that having someone mad because I was running late was better than killing myself or someone else. I agree that from the pics I thought the bus did fairly well considering the speed and impact. had a compact car hit that barrier at that speed you would have to find the VIN just to figure out what it was. still want to look and some way to add energy absorbtion to the front of my Eagle if only to make me feel better.
steve
I read in the Houston paper that Emilio was improving it's day to day now. There were 7 others on the bus one got 13 stitches in his head and all have gone home but 1, the paper stated than he had a full time driver till 6 mos ago Emilio was the only one that drove the bus after the driver left.When ask the band said Emilio always wore his seat belt and were surprised he didn't have it on. hope the guy makes it
Todd,
I just happened to get a call from a buddy who used to be an insurance underwriter...and now is an attorney at one of the better know national insurance companies right after reading the stretched, raised widdened post.....so was fresh in my mind to ask.
His comments:
1. if it was disclosed that the Original structure was modified outside of it's original design, it would never be insured by anyone in todays environment.
2. If the insurance carrier finds out that it was modified, they will refuse to pay claims, and will likely win in court.......leaving the "insured" persons to sue whoever did the modifications. Then it would all come down to expert witneses testimony as to the part the modifaction had in the damage during the accident
I didn;t have him for long so I could not pick his brain more on the matter as far as other modifications such as slideouts etc......and how the ins company would ever know if they were not told.
Tekebird, if that was true nobody would have insurance on the conversions I have seen modifications done to brand new Prevosts and MCIs.You need to post the name of the insurance co he works for so by accident someone won't buy from that insurance co
he requested not to name him or his company....he is a lawyer afterall.
and we were talking about structural modifications......which most conversion do not have.
as for aftermarket installed slides..... got me.....but most of the companies that are doing new buses have plenty of insurance themsleves. Both Prevost and MCi offer slides from the factory nowdays as well as raised roofs. OEM
from our breif conversation.......they consider structural mods the same way they look at Totaled vehiles with salavage titles.......sure they can be made "good as new" from the outside......but you never know whats on the inside or how they are structurally.
I remember seeing a News show about "rebuilt totalled vehicles......particulalry unibody types.......and several fatal accidents which after investigation were deemed that they would not have been fatal if it was an unmolested car. In this instance.....the people were sold cars that had titles that did not show the cars were ever wrecked.
Most guys are not ever going to even think about mentioning to thier ins company..hey I am going to cut it apart and weld some more metal in to make it bigger. I would hazzard my buddy is right and every ins company known would say no thank you........or multiply your premium by a factor of (x)
And I would also expect in an accident like this....some sort of investigator outside of the TX highway patrol is going to be looking into it........especially if they had good insurance coverage.
Look at the number of people who get turned down for ins by saying bus conversion. I don;t have any issues calling it that with state farm.....but then again my original agent had some clout...and having had many in the family now over the years.....they don;t even bat an eye, other than when they ask new price on a Custom Coach MCI......and you say 500k or so......they bat an eye there.
luvrbus,
I too would like the name of the Insurance CO. and the lawyer from Tekebird. If this lawyer has this information then we should boost his business if we get into an accident while we are in our cars and we collide with a converted bus! Sorry, I ain't buying all this.
If the bus fell apart in the road and caused an accident then perhaps this would play into the scenario but this is not the case in this particular accident. There cannot be but only "one" bus (as of today) out of our bus nut family that I know of that has not had some type of change to their originality when born. We are considered bus conversions and all at risk per the information provided in this thread now.
Being a converted bus has nothing to do with this particular accident as we are told by authorities at this moment. Fatigue, possible Drinking but not confirmed, possibly run off by a 4 wheeler etc. could have been some of the reasons for this accident, but there was not one mention of a slide out, raised roof or anything else was considered being the reason for it.
I can't believe I even posted on this new information! Another bad day!!
Gary
Well now!
Are we as converted bus owners pointing fingers which is something perhaps we all might be guilty of driving while sleepy?
I will be the first to say. Yes I have driven a vehicle when I was sleepy and by the grace of the good lord I made it home with out an incident.
As far as the Eagle coach that was involved in this accident if it was or unmodified the damage would have been the same after hitting the concrete median like this coach did.
I bet if it were to have been any other model coach a GMC,MCI or Prevost the damage would have been about the same degree.
Now! The great state of Texas DPS is running around with the vehicle VIN number asking the folks at the new Eagle facility if this bus came equipped with a factory seat belt for the driver.
Go figure law enforcement at it's best!
The accident with this Eagle coach is tragic and we all should learn a lesson don't drive while you are sleepy and make sure that you have your seat belt fastened after all the driver is the first one there in a accident.
jlv :P
Proof is sometimes hard to get, especially from a lawyer. It doesn't sound right to me either. Buses aren't the only vehicles that have been modified from original specs. If so then most hot rods would not meet the criteria.
Paul
I think this bus did a remarkable job of protecting its passengers. It was all tore to hell and easily could have killed everyone. My prayers are with Emilio, hope he lives to own another Eagle. Its hard to believe anyone survived. My bet is he fell asleep.
Sounds like he had enough experience..... I doubt an endorsement would have made any difference.....Stuff happens... A fresh driver could have made the difference, but truckers go through this everyday, the bone yards are full of wrecked trucks.
A good point about truck drivers. A few days ago there was an accident on IH10 west of Phoenix when one truck ran into the back of another truck. Ended up with multiple vehicles involved and two deaths.
I am not saying that anything about this accident was caused by or damage incured a result of any modifications.
I am just passing on info......which is valid......whether any named insurance company would choose to investigate, or litigate or no pay a claim is subject to any number of circumstances.
In todays Legal and Insurance climate......there is a possibility of one or more of the above......
more likely if this was a converted coach that was being leased or chartered as then the DOT and other gov bodies would be involved.
I was just commenting on the post that the bus was heavily altered structually.
My 1976 MCI has seat belt anchors - and seat belt....
We have a Class 8 tractor (Freightliner from Schneider Fleet) that has been modified...one rear axle removed. This is common among us that pull trailers. No one has had any problems with insurance or with proper registration (mine reg as a motorhome in Texas).
I'd guess the fellow just fell asleep... too bad he did not retain his driver. Drivers normally sleep during the show so they are ready to hit the road once the show is over.
My MC8 has Peninsula windows; that is a modification -- Roof air; vents; exhaust fans === all mod's.
Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
I can't think of ANY MCI, Prevost, Eagle (or any other brand) that has not been modified to make it a motorhome.
don
now I only dd a 30 second seacch....and didn't come up with anything related directly to buses......
however...I beleive if you delve into vehicle codes of various states I think you will find that modified vehicles including street rods , kit cars etc must undergo a special inspection prior to titling/registration. In my cursory search I found 3 states that require a special inspection of these vehicle in addition to the statrad state safety inspection.
Now to what extent this inspection is.....no idea......
Now CT.....for handicap vehicl mods, including larger doors, handicap controls, wheelchair lifts etc, requires work to be done by authorized contractors, and there was something in there about inspection by Automotive Engineer too...
Teke, I was at Featherlite for a month those people install their own slides on new Prevost or MCI they will not buy a factory installed slide the 2 MCI model Js I saw were going to Ca for conversion and they were doing modifications to the front to install generators along with work for 4 slides these were brand new buses so I don't buy your buddies theory about modifications
Quote from: compedgemarine on March 25, 2008, 08:56:32 AMhas anyone thought about adding the bumper shocks that are on cars and trucks these days?
I think that the bumper shocks are to get to the mandated 5 mph bumper tests.
The shocks you'd need to absorb the energy of a 36,000 lb. vehicle would be very large.
- John
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on March 25, 2008, 12:29:53 PM
Quote from: cody on March 25, 2008, 12:20:02 PM
... or do they think ...
In my opinion, the problem is they don't think at all before starting a maneuver with their car.
HTR, that is probably true. I know that before I started driving our bus, I would open a "decent" amount of space between the vehicle I'd passed and me before pulling back into the lane. Since driving the bus I now open probably twice space, or more, and continue to accelerate when pulling back in to keep a healthy buffer between my vehicle and the large one behind me.
Something I have noticed is that if after I have passed a truck, then activate my turn signal, but continue to stay in my lane, some truckers will signal when they feel there is a big enough gap. Most times when I bothered to pay attention to the rig, they appeared to be O/O instead of company ones. This, however is a rare occurrence. Bus drivers that I have encountered are either passing me, or running up my tailpipe, and I'm usually running 75 mph.
- John
My general experience is that a trucker will flash his lights once I have pulled far enough ahead to be able to clear him safely. Unfortunately RV's seldom if ever show this courtesy.I always show this same courtesy to any large vehicle passing me.
Richard