Just curious, why - when several were trying to voice their opinion on whether or not to allow Ace back on the board, was the discussion frozen and no further comments allowed? I wanted to mention a side of Ace that maybe some are not aware of...
At the bus rally in Arcadia, I noticed a front tire that had a large split in it. When the word got out, people flocked around my bus like flies, each having their own opinion on what I should do, whether or not I should try to drive it home, where I should try to get a new one (now remember, this was a holiday weekend) but the only ONE who stayed with me until I decided what would be the right thing to do, and the only ONE who actually changed that tire for me (with the help of tools loaned to us) was ACE. He is always there to lend a hand or do whatever he can to help a friend, especially a fellow bus nut. Isn't a year of being banned from this board punishment enough? At the very least, I feel this should be up for discussion by fellow board members, and to freeze the healthy discussion of the subject is quite frankly, nondemocratic, after all, this is America isn't it?
I wish the thread would have been left open too. I checked in after 6PM, started reading the post, was enjoying the Lovefest, thought I would add my two cents in , just to find it closed. Oh well!
Jack
PS...This coming from a guy that thought he would be banned for life this week!
To bad it's locked but probaby for the best FWIW ACE is not the only one barred from the board I know of others
FWIW,
Ace was the gentleman who got me started on doing research on the history of "Dreamscape". I did not have the interest until he wrote me an email and said he knew one of the previous owners.
I have never met Ace, only conversed through emails. So I can only offer my thoughts.
I did read all of the previous posts on the discussed topic and was very suprised to see it locked. But that is not my descion to make, that is why we have boad moderators.
Other than that, I wish Ace well in his endeavors,
Paul
I have never personally spoken to ACE, but I know from others that he is sometimes misunderstood. I have a friend who just bought a H3 to convert and went to Arcadia for the bus convention. They have had nothing but nice things to say about him. I personally would like to meet him someday. He seems to have become somewhat of a legend over something I know nothing about. But it is clear that there is a majority that like him and the many that feel that way, I respect and trust their opinion. I have watched ACE's activity on the other boards and see nothing that I would consider abrasive or offensive. If he were to come back and post on this board, it would be most likely because of his love for the hobby and a desire to share with others, not because he has some burning desire to be here. Enough time has passed that everyone who was offended should be over it by now. It's time to move on and treat him like everyone else. Everyone needs to set the example and practice the Golden Rule. If things get screwy again, then the moderators can deal with it again.
I am also a bit miffed that the other thread was locked. Maybe I missed somewhere why it should have been. But, then again, I'm not the sharpest person here on the board. As a courtesy, when the moderators decide to lock a post, they should provide an explanation as to why it is being lock. Instead of "I have now locked this thread!" (Nick, your tone makes it look like you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm not getting the way this landed on you, but it didn't seem to land the same way on many of the rest of us). How about "I am locking this thread because..........." and give a decent, easy to understand reason. I realize being a moderator is not easy and there are things you know and are privileged to that the rest of us are not. I do appreciate the tremendous amount of time and energy you devote to keeping this board as clean and inviting as possible. I am sharing my opinion on how this looks to me, I could very well be wrong. I wasn't going to say anything but after seeing that others might have similar feelings, I thought I would share my concern.
I think it was locked because it was getting no where.>>>Dan
As for Ace being helpful... at the second Timmonsville rally, we arrived pretty late. This was my first 'real' trip in my bus. Now that I think about it, I believe it was my first trip whatsoever in my bus. Anyway, there was a space between two other buses or RV's that I had to back into. I did not feel comfortable doing this - it was dark and I was tired - and Ace offered to do it for me. I'm sure that others would have offered, too, but he's the one that offered and he's the one who backed it in for me.
David
Quote from: Barn Owl on March 06, 2008, 09:58:41 PM
As a courtesy, when the moderators decide to lock a post, they should provide an explanation as to why it is being lock. Instead of "I have now locked this thread!" (Nick, your tone makes it look like you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm not getting the way this landed on you, but it didn't seem to land the same way on many of the rest of us). How about "I am locking this thread because..........." and give a decent, easy to understand reason.
While I would have preferred that the thread stay open, I felt like Nick did explain his reason. I can understand and respect the point he expressed.
Quote from: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7584.msg74264#msg74264It this point, this thread shouldn't be the pressure point for Ace or the bbs members and moderators to make a decision. Not fair to anyone!
If Ace wants back in, He'll know what is needed to make that happen.
This thread has expressed good and bad from all points of view and no others are needed. When and if Ace returns, it will be as quietly as he left.
Thanks
Nick-
No Dan your wrong, it was locked because Nick didn't like the way the thread was going in the favor of Ace and so he locked it. It also made me mad when Nick locked the thread, there was no reason to close that thread because it had nothing said in it that was flaming of anyone, but it was a very constructive effort to get Ace reinstated. We do live in America don't we, or is this Russia where one with power can have the say over someone they don't like. Or lock a thread because they don't like the way it's going????. I am not one to start problems, but rather one who like to joke and get along with others, but when I see an injustice I will stand and push back to defend the one who in my opinion is being treated unfair. Nick I will say it strait out you were wrong in my opinion to lock that thread, it had nothing offensive, and was trying only to make this community a better one as we see it, and not just as one moderator might see it. If one moderator banned Ace on his own then that moderator needs to reinstate Ace on his own and then inform Ace by email. If Ace was ban by a group of moderators then those involved in the banning of Ace need to get together and reinstate Ace, and then email him of the decision. If I come under attack because of this, then so be it, because I am a big boy. Ace should not have to come and grovel to the powers that be to satisfy their ego, someone I.E. a moderator with the cohoanas, to should stand up and do the right thing here and reinstate Ace.
Hi Bob,
It this point, this thread shouldn't be the pressure point for Ace or the bbs members and moderators to make a decision. Not fair to anyone!
If Ace wants back in, He'll know what is needed to make that happen.
This thread has expressed good and bad from all points of view and no others are needed. When and if Ace returns, it will be as quietly as he left.
Thanks
Nick-
I have now locked this thread!
Nick your first line says it's not fair to apply pressure, wrong Nick this is how the American people have always tried to effect change in a peaceful way. Again I say no one was being flamed in any way when you chose to lock free thought
Your second line says if Ace wants to came back he know what he has to do. Again I don't think Ace ban himself I think a moderator did that, so a moderator will have to reverse that decision not Ace.
Your third line says Ace will return quietly. I'm sure that's how you would like it, and that is why you locked the thread because it was not being done the way you wanted it done Quietly.
Your last line says it all " I have now locked it " I think not because a lot of people have continued to post under a new thread so that free thought is not stomped down by people who think they can do what ever they want.
Now what, will you ban me for my free thoughts, or restrict my access to this board as was done with Ace??????
Oh" and HighTechRednec I must disagree with you, I don't think Nick explained himself very well at all, other than to come in and lock it down what he didn't like.
It takes a lot to anger me but locking of this thread has.
WVaNative
Content not edited for the purpose of conveying my true feelings
Hi Dean,
I will not Edit, Delete or lock anything in your post. I respect your comments!
It is just apparent that you don't know the whole story and I will not be the one to edgucate you on it.
Regards
Nick-
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on March 07, 2008, 08:47:33 AM
Hi Dean,
I will not Edit, Delete or lock anything in your post. I respect your comments!
It is just apparent that you don't know the whole story and I will not be the one to edgucate you on it.
Regards
Nick-
Nick please do educate me in a private message and if I have put you in a wrong lite, I will be glad to appologize publicly here on the board.
Dean
WVaNative
Wow, a double feature!! (https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fdax2274%2FIcons%2Fpopcrn.gif&hash=62f2262be80c29495d22d21b1c41637228da51f4)
Glad I'm not starring in this one!
Gentlemen, please...before tempers get out of control and someone is offended..needlessly.
The best I can offer is that Nick and I have exchanged messages and I'm confident that he has done all he can at this time. Please remember that the Board is furnished to us for the exchange of information and ideas and that MAK is the guy footing the bill. He has selected the people who, in his opinion, will do their best to maintain the harmony we see every day.
Things are moving behind the scenery you and I see....Those of you who voiced their support for Ace to return did not fall on deaf ears. You were heard.
Now, please...I'm asking you to soft pedal this issue for the time being and be patient and allow time for things to happen....if they will.
I truly believe that Nick handled this well. At best his is a lousy job. I wouldn't want to be a Moderator for 10 tanks full of fuel. It has to be difficult to have to make decisions that might go against your own friends. Not an enviable situation.
Patience, my friends, PLEASE.
Bob
Quote from: NCbob on March 07, 2008, 09:49:59 AM
Please remember that the Board is furnished to us for the exchange of information and ideas and that MAK is the guy footing the bill. He has selected the people who, in his opinion, will do their best to maintain the harmony we see every day.
I wouldn't want to be a Moderator for 10 tanks full of fuel.
I was just about to point out that this board is not a democracy but a wonderful resource provided to us at no charge; therefore, they make, enforce, change, or ignore the rules as they see fit.
The question you have to ask yourself is "Is the amount of information available here worth whatever aggravation you have to endure?"
(in my best Dirty Harry voice)
Well, IS IT??!!!!
;D ;D ;D
Bob, what size fuel tanks? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I do not know the details of the incident(s) that caused the drastic action to be taken. The problem is that once a decision like that is made, it is difficult to undo gracefully. Those who made the decision feel compelled to defend it, and those who are the subject may not feel like approaching anyone since it may appear to them to be groveling. I would therefore like to make a suggestion that in the future if it is felt necessary to limit someone's participation on the board, it be done for a specific amount of time. When that time is up, they are back on without a word spoken. In this particular case, maybe that could be done retroactively. If that reasonable amount of time is up, it's up. Even criminals are given specific time, and here we are only dealing with words.
By the way, it is not all that hard to create a fake identity and get on the board. I probably would have done that. If this gentleman has not, he is extremely principled.
"All is forgiven. Come home"
Aha!!! The board is a free resource provided to us. However without us it is nothing, for we are the board!!!!!
That said the mod's should make the decisions, after all they are the ones that have to go around and clean up the messes that are made.
I also do not need to know what happened. That is between Ace and whoever made the decision.
I wonder if Ace really wants to come back in the first place.
That decision belongs to the powers at be and Ace.
I personally think that the subject has gone its coarse.
Just my 2 cents.
It is not to offend anyone!
Happy Trails Ya'll
I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of displeasure at the "locking" of the thread in support of the return of board privileges to Ace. I met Ace at a Timmonsville Rally and saw firsthand his creativity and craftsmanship as demonstrated in his bus. I also challenged him on something I felt he could have done better, we discussed it at some length, very pleasantly and comfortably. I am convinced Ace has much to offer the community of this board. If his return would hurt someone's ego, then frankly that ego doesn't belong here and it should be banned. I really don't have any idea what led to Ace's ban and don't want to know, even for all that fuel Ncbob is offering, but I do think there should be an amicable way he can come back. We'll never find that way if the moderators choose to lock any discussions.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
QuoteI would therefore like to make a suggestion that in the future if it is felt necessary to limit someone's participation on the board, it be done for a specific amount of time. When that time is up, they are back on without a word spoken.
This should become board policy. A simple, easy to understand rule that would be applied to everyone, and make the process of getting back fair to all.
What do you think Nick?
You guys are AWSOME. I feel privileged...truly. Some really put it on THE LINE and ethic always has its place and it is nice to understand another's true feelings even if honesty doesn't always pay off...or maybe particularly because it doesn't.
Nick,
You have my heart felt sympathy. I know you are doing your level best in this situation and I applaud your self control and restraint. You have never given me even the slightest reason to doubt your good judgement so I am bent in your direction. I don't know WHO directed locking the thread but a case can be made for that understandably disappointing some. I was a little surprised, myself.
I think NC gets the nod with "things are moving behind the scene". Wish that had been said earlier. I can easily wait for that and have confidence in the people working the problem. I also understand that a manager worth his salt NEVER says "the boss made the decision" so that is always a possibility. That is why Nick is paid the BIG BUCKS.
[quote wvanative]
As I see it we are a community, each and every one of us is a part of it. Myself a smaller part, others a larger part of it. I have spoken to Richard and I grew up just a few short mountain ridges from where he lives. I've had conversations with Ace and I find him very likeable and helpful. Men are a proud bunch, and to ask Ace to call and grovel to came back may be asking something very hard to do. I think if Nick was the one to ban Ace then it's up to Nick to reinstate Ace and be done with it. We need everyone who wants to be here. We are only on this earth a short time and we all need each other at times. I almost died Last Sat, so this stuff is trivial to me
So Nick I'm asking in a nice way please put and end to it and invite Ace back.
WVaNative [/quote]
[quote NCbob]
Since I'm the culprit who started all this I'm going to jump in here with a thought or two.
First thank you all for your votes and posts....the poll was the only way I could think of to show any measure of support for Ace. Those of us who know him realize that he's a completely different person, one on one in a discussion, than we might find in the written dialogue. I've had what I thought were disagreements with some postings but I sent those members a personal message and kept any disagreements off the Board.
Anytime I find one of my posts has been deleted I sit up and take notice and rethink whether or not I should have approached the topic in the manner I did. That's what the Moderators do...and in most cases...do it well.
Perhaps a compromise would be to open Ace's membership again, quietly, and send him a PM to that effect.
I agree with WVNative that he shouldn't have to grovel to anyone...men don't treat men like that.
Wish I'd thought of the 'Don't Care' category...tried to add it but I guess I'm not that computer bright.
Bob
[/quote]
OK I would like to make this clear. I didn't mean that ACE have to grovel to anyone either! I may not have said it right, or been misinterpreted. What I meant was that he should call Nick and see exactly what it was that got him banned! And also Nick or whoever should tell him what will or will not happen in the future just to clear the waters and make it understood by both sides what the deal is! But again I have no say so, I just wanted to clear up the meaning of what I said!
FWIW as hard as it is for ya'll to believe I myself have been banned from another board own mellow, loveable self! Yup it's true! (of course I have been reinstated after emailing and "groveling" just kidding merely pointing out my side of the story, to the owner of that board. But I still don't go there much anymore on the account of the principle of it!)
;D BK ;D
This is all highly inappropriate.
Wonder what legal counsel might have to say?
BACK TO BUSES!!!!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Yeah BK, we love you anyway despite what that other dumb arss website did to you. Besides I don't post on the BNO ether.
WVaNative
Since I wasn't working on my buss & work was slow, I was able to read the boards every day. There were very few posts I didn't read.
I read many posts that were obviously removed before most read them.
If all those posts were still around for all to see, I believe most would see that the moderators acted in the best interest of this board.
This is why I prefer the posts to be left - just cleaned up to protect the innocent. Then people will know what happened & we won't have a stink made about something when essential facts are missing.
Quote from: wvanative on March 07, 2008, 08:59:19 AM
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on March 07, 2008, 08:47:33 AM
Hi Dean,
I will not Edit, Delete or lock anything in your post. I respect your comments!
It is just apparent that you don't know the whole story and I will not be the one to edgucate you on it.
Regards
Nick-
Nick please do educate me in a private message and if I have put you in a wrong lite, I will be glad to appologize publicly here on the board.
Dean
WVaNative
It is just my opinion, but it is none of your business, or mine either for that matter. It is between the board moderators & the one 'banned'. I'm sure there are a few facts that some (participants & victims) would rather not be aired again.
Also, it is my opinion that jumping to conclusions before knowing the facts is reckless behaviour.
Raising a question is fine & encouraged.
Tossing out accusations & flaming suppositions . . . not so much.
Kyle, You are correct that jumping to conclusions before knowing the facts is reckless behaviour. and of that I am guilty in this case. But Kyle please don't presume to tell me what is my business or is not, My father died forty years ago, and he never mentioned you as my authority, and I will not tell you what is you business or not, and I hope we get along in the future as we have in the past. A moderator on this board thought is was my business and filled me in. That is the reason I hate threads being locked, and post being removed and knowledge being lost in the process. But that said that does not change my mind about Ace being allowed to return. His knowledge of buses is invaluable to us all and I would hope that things can be worked out to that end.
Nick I owe you an apology for being a little harsh on you, you have always treated me well and I hope we can continue as in the past.
WVaNative
Hey y'all -
This thread, the locked one, and a few of the older threads with flames, are good examples of how the written word alone, without the vocal inflections and visual cues provided in "live" situations, can spiral downhill faster than a front wheel blowout at 70 mph.
Writing intelligently, to inform and not to inflame, takes time and thought.
Knee-jerk reactions produce bruised emotions, sometimes unintentionally, and often not forgotten.
Should one be prone to immediately firing off a scathing missive due to some perceived wrong, said one should take the time to reflect on how such a missive could be received at the other end, and perhaps reconsider and rewrite such missive to request further discussion in private, off-board.
My daddy used to tell me to "build bridges, not burn them," and my mama used to tell me: "Honey always works better than vinegar."
Took awhile for that to sink into this thick, stubborn skull. . .
FWIW. . .
;)
Quote from: wvanative on March 08, 2008, 08:07:05 PM
don't presume to tell me what is my business or is not,
I merely gave my opinion, so don't presume I said what I didn't ;)
May God help us if the world ran on my opinion! :o
My father died forty years ago, and he never mentioned you as my authority,
Maybe he did & you weren't listening ;D :o Sorry, I couldn't resist
and I will not tell you what is you business or not,
If I am beeing too nosey, presumptious, or otherwise out of line, I certainly hope someone will step up & offer their opinion concerning my business. Sometimes, I can't see the forrest for the trees. :o
and I hope we get along in the future as we have in the past.
I haven't rulled that out yet ;D
A moderator on this board thought is was my business and filled me in.
But did you get the WHOLE story, or just a few more pieces? Hard to know for sure.
That is the reason I hate threads being locked, and post being removed and knowledge being lost in the process.
See, we can agree on something ;D ;D ;D
But that said that does not change my mind about Ace being allowed to return. His knowledge of buses is invaluable to us all and I would hope that things can be worked out to that end.
I feel all have the potential to contribute & as long as construction is the goal vs. tearing down, all should be allowed. But sometimes we act as a child & diciplinary actions are helpfull.
I know the past isn't 100% accurate in predicting the future, but sometimes it is real close! & it is the best we have.
Nick I owe you an apology for being a little harsh on you, you have always treated me well and I hope we can continue as in the past.
WVaNative
Wow Kyle, I left my post, turned off the computer, and went to bed last night having been deathly sick for two friggin weeks I finally got a good nights sleep. I see this morning you were a busy little beaver LOL. First I have no hard feelings toward you about what you had to say. I have always said people should speak their mind. But with that said, I will never let you get away with telling me what my business is or is not. As for my dad, he only whipped me twice in my whole life, and I remember both of them very vividly, neather beating was for being bad , but for doing something that could have got me killed. The second beating was so bad I couldn't go to school for a week because I couldn't sit in a chair that week. My old man was as tough and mean as any coal miner that came along, and believe me you I listen to every word he spoke, and when he said Runt jump, I didn't ask how high, I just jumped. Oh Runt was my nick name as a kid and only my brothers call me that now. I have always been the one to want to get along with everyone and I hope you and I will be friends as I hold no ill will toward you kyle.
WVaNative
This entire episode is a good reason for forums to have a member ratings system. That way the membership decides if a person is offensive enough to need to have his privileges revoked instead of a couple of moderators. This is in no way a slap at the moderators but instead a suggestion to take the heat away from them in these situations.
With a rating system in place you set a percentage of good/bad and when the bad percentage is reached the person is banned. It can be 40%, 50%, whatever... And ratings can also be changed. If you get PO'd at someone for being a jerk and give him a negative rating and then you both work it out, the rating can be changed back. Ratings are anonymous and can be seen on the person's info on the right of each post. That way they know if they are in danger.
Although I have had disagreements with people here, personally I can't think of one person that I would give a negative rating to.
Dale,
I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. I frequented a board that used a member rating scheme. At first it was okay. But it rapidly deteriorated into a love/hate fest. We developed a group we called the "0" bandits. Any thing they disagreed with they gave a zero rating. It didn't matter how well the topic was presented, or tone of the post. It destroyed the board.
While the moderator type of board may not be perfect, it is still gives a good balance. While I will still participate if we go to a ratings scheme, I hope we don't.
Frank
Hi Folks,
I find it very interesting that so many of you that have no idea why a person who's repeated offences caused him to be banned from the board are so quick to advocate his return. I do know why he was banned. I believe in second chances too, but how many second chances does one person get.
I have been told that the first step to solving a problem is to recognize that there is a problem. From a recent post on another board, I don't think that Ace has accepted that he ever was a problem. The long time members of this board, that are familiar with the issues that led to the ban, know why Ace was banned.
Lin, you mention that convicts know the length of their sentence, have you never heard of life without parole?
NC Bob, would'nt it have been better to have made your appeal to Nick in the first place instead of bringing it to the board? You said "men don't treat men like that", or something like that. Well MEN don't treat people like Ace did here either.
When someone asks me why I didn't give a person a piece of my mind? My responce normally is, "I have so little to spare".
That's my $ .02 and you can keep the change. Sam 4106
Frank,
I have seen the same thing, but that was normally on boards that were overrun by teenagers. I would hope that the adults we have here would act more their age. But your point is taken. The other board that I saw what you described on had what was called the 'red bar brigade'. This was made up of people who were on the fence and proud of it. They would act out worse than normal just to get banned. Of course, they knew they would just sign up under another name and start the whole process over again.
I have to say that overall, this is the best board I have ever been on and I attribute that to a more mature crowd. We don't always agree but we handle it like adults and that is how it should be.
Quote from: wvanative on March 09, 2008, 09:01:45 AM
But with that said, I will never let you get away with telling me what my business is or is not.
Dude, chill out. I only said it was my opinion that it wasn't our business, I never meant you had to agree with me. ;) Once you get to know me, you will realize I have lots of opinions & sometimes share them too easily. I don't want everyone to agree with them - would be awfully boring if they did. 8)
I have always been the one to want to get along with everyone and I hope you and I will be friends as I hold no ill will toward you kyle.
I don't have any ill will towards you either, not yet anyways ;)
I enjoy good debates, discussions, arguments. It is one way of seeing who is listening ;D :o
WVaNative
Songman,
I will not endorse anonymous ratings. It's too easy for punks to hide after starting trouble. It is bad enough that their incendiary posts are deleted after the bomb was droped.
Not to mention any names (because that would leave some out), but, I have seen certain people post vicious, slanderous, & unsubstantiated accusations only to have the post deleted & seemingly no diciplinary actions taken since they continue to pop off whenever they feel like it. (mostly on another board which is why I don't post much there.) Now, the only ones to have seen the ugly posts were the person attacked & a few others. Those that didn't see the post have no idea why hard feelings exist. That is why some posters get such a cold reception. These offensive posters sometimes try to defend themselves by claiming they didn't say that - who can refute it if it isn't there in the archive?
I feel this board is better for the actions of our moderators. I still don't like having posts deleted, but I believe deleting those posts keeps the board a friendlier place.
BTW, Sam 4106 is wise beyond his years & is obviously not easily fooled by BS & empty promises.
If we are voting, I like the system of moderators. They make a H*** of a contribution to this board and they are a success...BASED ON RESULTS. Thank you all.
John(the suck up)
Time to move on guys... You have beat this one into the ground enough...
>:( :( :o 8) ::) :P ;) :) :'( :-X :-[ :P ??? ::) 8) :o :(
What Dave said!
To Sam 4106, are you sure you birth certificate does not have your name listed as "Solomon"?
That is a very good post...pretty much what I was thinking!
Jack
Kyle, I guess my naiveté always shows and gets me in trouble. I have this idea that all people are good until they show me they aren't. That's why I assume that petty things won't happen here with all of us adults. I have been shown different many times. I just choose not to let it change me and make me jaded. But your point is taken and I understand where you are coming from.
Since i don't have sense I'll jump in on opinions since that seems to be the thread here.
I met Ace before and like him. I've met Dallas and Jack and have read this board for a while and gotta take on Nick and Richard, and like them too.
I don't read all the post so if i don't like one i move on, I even sometimes enjoyed the Onward and Upward guy's post but found many just "too dang long" so i moved on.
My opinion of the Moderators in their "Volunteer" postions is they neither promote nor take lightly the ban of a member. Heck, they even put a whole nother place to say whatever the heck you want and you dont have to go there if you don't want to read it. I am confident that they were put in an awkward position that they did not ask for or desire and acted in the manner they deemed best for the board and the group. I do not envy them and dislike that they were put in the position to have to take that type action. I respect thier decision/action as "how it is. I think they do very well and the board is great as a result.
Since we all know the law about "there is one in every crowd"; so be thankful when you see him, cause if you don't see one, means it's your turn. ;)