I spoke to a mechanic that is doing some work for me and asked him about switching out fuel lines on my 8v71 so that I could use biodiesel. He said he was not sure that would be enough since it was possible that there could be rubber parts associated with other elements of the fuel system like injectors, injector pump, fuel pump, etc. Is that really a concern?
you will need new fuel lines, new filtering system(heated) as well as a heated tank be it 12v or coolant heated.
Have good experience now that the 04 project I was involved in ran on B100
Tekebird
As I understood it, I would only need the heated fuel if I wanted to run vegetable oil. That may be a plan for the future. For now, I just wanted to be able to accept commercial biodiesel. Aside from the fuel lines and possibly cleaning of the tank. Are there other parts in the system that would have incompatible materials? I assume that you already are capable of running multiple fuels. What has your experience been?
Lin,
You need to do more research. I think the older mechanical injectors all do just fine. I guess the older pumps do OK also.
I do know that you DO NOT have to change out your fuel lines or TANK for crimany sakes. Yes Dino D does leave behind some deposits built up on the surfaces of your fuel system. Proven fact. B100 will dissolve and DISLODGE those deposits. Proven fact. It isn't like a wheelbarrow full of sand and gravel, however. It is more like three filter changes and your OK for a regular filter change interval that is SHORTER than it used to be with Dino but not unreasonable.
You DO NOT need to install heaters in your fuel lines or keep you tank heated. None of that....if ambient is above 50 degrees. If you will be running in chillier weather you need to run B50, 50% B100 and 50% Dino. In real chilly weather you can run B20. If you are loaded at the end of the summer with B100 you just add Dino in the correct proportions for your situation. Now that beats heating tanks and what not.
If I were you and I was willing to install tank, filter and line heaters I would go the extra INCH and install the preinjectors "final" heater and be able to burn "STRAIGNT Waste Vegetable Oil" (WVO). Then you would only need to add a separate tank for the Dino that you use to warm the engine up and wait for the tanks to heat and for shut down to purge the lines. WVO is a dollar a gallon. You could fill your system with B100 when you wanted to splurge.
And the fly in the ointment, you might ask? I am getting the feeling that not all B100 is the same. Close but not equal. Cetane numbers are different for different WVO cause they start out with different varieties of oil. Palm is the worst but not many use it. Get that many part? Running too low a cetane number will void the engine warranty but they also "approve" B100. See any contradiction there? Jeepers!
I would use B100 in a heart beat. It is also a super additive to your regular fill of Dino as it is a great lube to replace the lubricity of the lost sulphur content of new generation Dino. I understand that the process of removing the sulphur also gets other good stuff and lubricants is one of them. I recently read that the sulphur didn't lube anything. Always a twist.
Well Good Buddy if you aren's as confused as I am it isn't due to lack of concerted effort on my part. If any of it gets unwound here for you I will also be taking notes. Don't forget that "in a heart beat" part.
HTH
John
Well if you operate at temps above 55 degrees you won;t have a problem. Bio Blends start to cloud just below 60 degrees.
Also keep in mind Bio has a 60 day shelf life.....so if your not using the bus keep running Dino.
also keep in mind you should expect a 20% loss of power and 20% loss of MPG with B100
also that Bio is more expensive than Dino.
Bio is not economically feasable....SVO and WVO are but have their own sets of issues to deal with.
Only reason the 04 was converted is that the Corp that bought it is very green and wanted to do it......and they have all the money considering they did better than 100k in mods to my 04 which was about as perfect as you might find one
John, unless Lin is re=unning hard fuel line with no rubber he will need the change the fuel lines....B100 will eat rubber.
Takebird,
Rubber is a nono, I understand that. If anyone puts in "rubber" you should beat him with it....I think. Isn't "all" the stuff out there neoprene? Some sillycone? ???
Hey you! I just read a very scientific chart that broke out cetane, freeze point and gobs of other stuff about oils you were afraid to ask about. Unless my memory has failed sinse yesterday.....only a couple of vegy oils have less BTU's of energy in them than Dino. I have heard that 20% number many times. What gives? According to that chart Veggie has more energy and should get better MPG and Pwr.
Another piece of news: add b100 to your GAS. It cleans that system also and lubricates.
THX,
John
So to recap, all I have to do to be bio ready is make sure all fuel lines are at least neoprene--no old rubber, stock up on fuel filters and be ready to change them when the engine gives some sign (I assume it doesn't just shut down suddenly). If I am happy with that, I can look to veg oil in the future. Do I have it right?
never have your bus in anyplace where the temps drop below 60 degrees.
Oh, it will just up and stop on you...so plan on haing some way to prime or know how to prime.
Unless you are wealthy and super eco consious (nut) it's not worth it from my experience.
We had several clouding issues even with heated filter system and heated tanks.
do whatever you want and listen to whoever you think is right....or whoever's view point you side with.......you are the one who has to live with it.
Don;t know what research you were readng but I got paid to read up and educate myself for many hours....all my info was in agreement on the 20% loss.......
this was also realized in real life MPG calculations over 3 months and 6000 miles of use
Note this was mostly on Freshly produced B100.
old Bio has an exponential decay in Energy values
I would also suggest pulling and cleaning your tank......with decades of Diesel Storage I can assure you there is a nice varnish on the tank walls....which will become particulate due to the properties of Bio.
or you can just spend that money on Fuel Filters......it does not take much to clog them......and you will never really know when the tank is clean
Well, I may be somewhat of a nut on several fronts. Anyway, I did not say I was going 100% bio, and I really appreciated the input and will take it very seriously. I just want to have the option should I want to do it. It seems that I would not expect to be in places that are less than 60 degrees while doing summer travel. The issue of shelf life though is a pretty serious one. One can not just fill up and forget it but will have to fill according to the trips intended. Loss of power of 20% is not something that I would be happy with and will have to speak to people that are doing this and see what they say. There is a biodiesel coop starting up near here, so I will try to get some feedback there too. I was also thinking of trying to brew my own, but that would be a long way off if I ever really try it. It is real easy to find guys that drive old Mercedes that rave about veg, but I have not met anyone running a Detroit even for a short time, much less for years. However, I still would like to have the capability if I want to try it, and I am willing to change some hoses to get there but not much more than that. Another thing for my list! I do like the idea of being able to air-up without people around giving the evil eye. Yes, I know that I could solve that issue with a relatively cheap compressor. Thanks for the benefit of your expertise.
If our buses will run on straight dino and also run on straight WVO, what is to stop us from just mixing the two in the tank? i.e. on refueling add 50 gallons of diesel and 50 gallons of WVO.
Why go to all the trouble to get/make biodiesel?
Fred Mc.
GM PD4106
I suppose you could but it would not homoginize by itself...and would layer.
not sure which is heavier.
WVO has filtering needs and is even more susceptable to clouding that B100.
A reliable anywhere VO system will cost you about 5k retail for you bus...check with the guy who owns Golden Fuels...he is an MC-6 owner and member of the board......and is the only VO/BIO person I talked to that answered enough questions right to be deemed reliable......most are wackos that buy and sell equip to make your VW diesel run on VO...different bird there.....and they are just retailers.....most I talked to could not pass a high school autoshop class IMHO
VO also has shelf life issues.
Takebird,
I have never been paid to research Bio but I would give anyone that has been so employed a lot of credit. I haven't read anything that you have said that i didn't think was credible. That being said.....some of these things will stand a little bit of clarification....maybe.
What I have learned about WVO is that it contains a whole bunch of stuff that you remove when converting it to B100. Maybe 20% is waste. Water is one thing and animal fat is another and bunches of other stuff from the oil and even methanol/ethanol from the refining process. Meth does not have the power of Dino. I think that WVO is most certainly and unarguably "weaker" than Dino and 20% seems conservative. Given that: it would seem to me that B100 should approach the BTU of DINO. Otherwise WVO is greater than 20% less powerful than Dino.
About that shelf life: The info I have gotten is that if it is "GOOD" B100 AND is kept in an airtight container, it will last for years. Without an expansion tank our tanks are NOT air tight. Water condensate is also destructive. I guess water is bad in any fuel but in B100 it ruins the stuff in a few short months. Having two tanks, one for B100 and one for Dino, I think running out the B100 prior to storage wouldn't require all that much planning. With an air space you should have a sealed tank that will only admit enuf air to compensate for fuel used. They make additives that preserve B100...just like Dino.
Sound right to you?
John
sounds about right, my readings during this project all said to expect 20% loss with the Bio...and that is what was realized.
Can't really comment on the HP but it was certainly down.
as for shelf life.
well we started off the product with Fresh unopened 55gallon drums of B100....of unknown manufacture date. It was bad...ran like crap and neither the Distributor or the Shop (US COach) would stand behind it. Yes we had it independantly tested. Testers were supprised that it even would ingite under the compression in a two stroke Diesel it was so bad.
Take,
Who can argue with eye witness testimony and scientific evidence. And no my tongue is NOT in my cheek. I am not trying to beat you up on this. Can you tell me why the B100 you tested went bad? That it was bad is proven, but why? Could you get a control sample that had more of a known history? In terms of science, one sample does not work as proof of anything except Nuc. Fusion. What impurities were in the sample that could not be attributed to aging? What was the original WVO stock oil variety? All VO does not perform equally in any regard that I have seen and shelf life must be on that list. There are thousands of people across this country using WVO and B100. In Europe it is LAW that they add VO to the Dino. LAW! I always hate it when people say "that wouldn't work in this country". Why is that...is their gravity different than ours? What? France and Germany have had that law for years and I think Germany is going to 10% VO and France IS AT 10% and expects to go higher. They are using two VOs that aren't as common in the US....Rape seed for one. I might be wrong on the numbers but the message is the same. Their B100 is made from virgin oil and surely to god it has a shelf life and engine mfr.s are building engines that thrive on it or at least tolerate the stuff. I might sound like I am on a rant but I swear I am not. Charlie Davidson is modifying his coach to use WVO and another Knut has the entire system installed and working. I have every plan to build a B100 conversion system for my use in auto and bus. I have something more than a KEEN INTEREST in the viability of this particular adventure BEFORE I get soaked for all the equipment. As far as the separating in your tank...the stuff sold as B50, B20 and B10 are mixed for you at the pump as a blend. I can't imagine that this stuff would stratify in your tank and I haven seen anything in the lit that relates to "solubility" in Dino.
I hope you take up these points Take. Your last leaves me with serious contradictions as to the viability of this stuff. I know your time is valuable and my delema is my own but I hope you will find time to help. I also don't want to screw up friends that expect to burn this stuff when I get it going, IF I get it going.
Your fellow Knut and aspirant fuel refiner,
John
no Problem John,
1st the blends in my neck of the woods are in the tank in the ground as blends.....god knows what checmicals they put in there to do what...did not research that far.
I know our local "refinery" of Bio ( not where I got the bad stuff) uses all sorts of VO as base....all depends on what they get.
as for my bad stuff....it was just tested for volitility ( combustability) not for impurities. Could not tell you were it came from (refinery) as I was not the purchaser..thatw as all routed through US coach...there were no ID markes on the pretty blue new 55 gal drums...no dates either.
Donl;t know anything about the Euro Laws.....I suspect it is more for enviro reasons ( output gases than anything else.) Iknow VW is the forerunner in Bio and they have a very low % that they will Allow under their US warranty system
Yes there are thousands running SVO and WVO and probably a few thousand running B100 too, but thewre are likely more running full electric vehicles..... What I find funny is I found very little data on the downfalls or drawbacks of Bio fuels as far as operation...although when probed and talking to people who run the stuff the true stories come out.
You have to keep in mind...the types who really go at that already have the agenda in their head...just like anything else if you are balls to the wall behind an agenda you either don;t ever go against the positive aspects or are not open about it. (think stem cell research)
PA Dot is running 10% Bio have not heard anything bad......a local school district who a freind who operates the fleet as well as being a fuel Distributor has nothing good to say.....alot of cold no starts due to thick fuel in PA winters this is 10%. He goes to alot of fuel conferences and such, and has not been sold on it.
Now as far as B100 or any of the blends....there is no industry standard......so unless you are at home and know who made the stuff and what they used...you don;lt know what you get.
as i said our local distillery ( more appropiate term as I think of them as a million dollar moonshine operation....LOL) used whatever they can get....
nowas far as my 4104 tour....it went from PA to St Louis with the bad fuel...diluting it every so many miles to restore some get up and go. It left St louis with Bio 100 on flat ground I could notice the loss of power although it ran OK. Due to time constraints and the lack of availability of B100 we were authorized to refill with DINO for the mad rush for a Vegas Trade Show.
Following vegas it ran on B100 exclusivel until October I think it was when in Idaho and points up that way they had some gelling issues.......and they went to B50
note we had a couple thousand dollar marine Racor heated Filter element upstream of the DD primary and secondary filters.....fuel lines were replaced and were nicelyt nested against the coach heater lines ( always hot during operation)...the bus was plugged into 120 overnight to provide for tank heating and also had 12 v heaters for use stationary and or underway. and they still had issues with cold starts......oh yeah...block heater plugged in prior to starts too.
Now this was all on a simple 6-71 with 60k miles from new....not a worn out 1/2 lifed or worse powerplant.
When I leased a coach to a political campaign a couple years ago I had opportunity to run into another candidates coach ( different office) who was running Bio and toutin and advertising the fact....turns out they only did it when they had access and it was only B10 it was summer so they did not have any issues they cared to share with me.
I should have more real life experience this summer when the 04 takes the road again...this time East Coast.
as I said the only guy I have talked to that I buy and Believe is Charles I think at Golden Fuels in Branson Area....he claims to be able to build a system that will run relaibly in Alask Year round.....now I don;t know if I buy that completly and I would certainly never try it on anything I own......but if it can be done that is they guy I would bet can do it.
His system was not cheap though.
now back to the 04......the tour manager was a younger guy who has been doing WVO tours in Diesel winibagos and has a fair ammount of real life experience......we got along well and he would speak candidly about stuff......he has had problems.....again mostly cold start stuff.....but some not so good fuel too.....
now on to feasbility.......outside of B100 costing more than Dino.......
I found several legit university studies....some even funded by Pro Bio funding( if you know where to look you can figure out where research fiunding comes from so you can figure out why or if things are skewed.....)
well the stuff costs more to distil than Dino.....mainly because ther e is no infrastructure.....and becuase it is not a proven fuel source.....they can;t amoratize the cost over 30 years or better.
as far as Dino Independant US or anywhere else for that matter..... can't physically happen. If you converted all Non built on land in the US to grow Bio Fuel base plants, we would still not meet the demand of the cxommercail trucking industry alone...not to mention planes, baots, private vehicles aircraft, or home heating oil....same ratios on a gloabl perspective.... and even if there were anough open land......we would be just saving money on fuel to see food prices go through the roof. I was very impressed with the two studies I read......now with that said the emissions values from Bio fuels was very impressive in comparison to Dino. One of these studies was the Univ of Michigan if I recall and the other was from some midwest school of engineering.
I also found it interesting that Bio fuels are not easily found in the grain belt...and when you can they are in the B3-B5 variety......who would have thiunk it.
There are sources of waste organics to make into ethanol and bio diesel. In some cases this is a practical source of fuel. Brazil makes lot of ethanol from sugar cane waste and they run cars on 100% ethanol.
In most parts of the world using food grains to make fuel is the height of idiocy. A national newspaper reported last week that during 2007 there was a major drawdown of world stock of food grains. Their projection was that if any of the worlds large grain exporting countries has a major crop reduction this year starvation will occur in a lot of importing countries.
In the US and Canada, this has all the appearances of a farm subsidy program without looking at the 'action - opposite reaction' in that they are raising food prices while reducing supply.
Stan,
Good info. I don't know if it was Brazil or Argentina but one of them is energy independent. They import NO DINO for car and truck fuel. I think part of the "cost" of Dino is hidden in the fact that a foreign country is getting your money. That is hurting us as it is the Saudi's that are buying our Gummint Bonds and we are paying , what, 60% of our taxes to SERVICE those bonds. That bites big time.
I read on a post the other day that the Saudi's have gone on a "boycott all American made products" binge. Darn it all to Heck, I hate to give people money that are working against me and mine. Having worked on the "Saudi Naval Improvement Program, SNIP" for a year or so I can tell you true that they pump hundreds of billions into our defense contractor corporations. Make your head swim and the amts and where are "classified" although I have read a lot of numbers that purported to be the correct tally and some of that came from our own Pentagon. Wood they lie? You bet they wood, or so it seems. There is a way to avoid contributing to the Saudi mess and make your point....according to one post. It seems the Royal Dutch Shell gets no oil from Saudi...Indonesia or so. Sinclair Oil has no Saudi input AND OF COURSE THERE IS CITGO FROM VENZUELA. Contrary to press, Hugo does not get the proceeds personally....its worse. He uses it ALL for the tax coffers that fund medi care and retirement and schools and infrastructure. No wonder we hate this guy. Imagine EXXON's reaction. Citgo also gives away fuel oil to the poor in New York city while our guys have cut the funding to the poor for heating assistance. Gummint hates him also. " I smell sulphur here at this podium" , I cracked up. The guy really is funny, you gotta giv'em that.
Take,
I read that point also about our getting independent from veggie. Brazil does not have the consumption that we have. No country on earth has our percapita appetite. I think the number is that the best we could hope for was 10%. That was squeezing the available farm land and mfr facilities real hard. The point evaded was that we have a lot of land in soil banks and unused and still a lot that is grass land for cattle that is eminently farmable. The beef industry hates bio fuels of any sort. Just look at the cost, in terms of pounds of grain fed, to produce one single pound of hamburger. That hamburger has two side benefits....the cow flatulence(farts) are a serious contributor to "green house gasses" and then there is the artery clogging plus side. Hey, I know what you are thinking and you are WRONG. I eat at OUTBACK STEAK HOUSE weekly and I have the 16 oz. cut done ever so rare. Lordy! I drive a V8 and a V6 and I drive em hard.
I saw an ad for trains recently that claimed that shipping a ton of cargo a mile cost the rail line one gallon of fuel....err, maybe that was a hundred tons. Anyway, some big number. Also read almost the same day that the Gummint was cutting the subsidy to AMTRAC. Do they ship any cargo or just people mostly in NYC?
Great talking to you and we gotta get closer to buses,
John
I'm still reading....makes me dangerous.
William Kemp is a professor and his book is encyclopedic and credible. Another on BIODIESEL was just packed with history and real life experiences. Seems that SVO has sooo very much stuff that it lacquerers up your rings and carbons up your combustion chamber. Again....what type is a big factor. Unwashed BioD is also a dirty burn with problems. Washing is the last step unless you reclaim the methanol by distillation. Really interesting stuff.
It seems that what I was told before is really true. It is up to the guy that makes the stuff. Curiously, it is the backyard brewer that never lets a bad batch out the door. He is getting visual feedback all through the process and "sees" crap happening. The big suppliers are apt to pump loads of crap because they dilute it and it is made in huge SS vats and tanks and there is no visual. The spec for Bio is real but you only have to check your process 4 times a year and you might make 500 batches so there is ever so slight a chance that you could pump crap without knowing it. Brrrrr.
Keep on keep'in on,
John
Update,
Today I heard that Virgin Atlantic Airlines made a flight from London to Antwerp(or someplace) on BIO. Next is the trans Atlantic route and I bet they aren't telling the passengers. Seems like it is a go. The military was touting turbines that would run on SVO or lard or diesel years ago. I guess turbines are less finicky.
In Eugene, Or the local refuse hauler has completely converted to BIO. Another dept in our city/county gummint also recently announced that the remaining holdout in its study were being converted. If our local buses aren't on BIO it is only a matter of time.
Interesting note on the standard for BIO D. It seems that in the really detailed testing they take a peck of lab rats and subject them to x number of minutes of exhaust and record the time it takes them to die. BIO D doesn't kill the little critters and they seem to thrive, curiously enough. They ran the test for six days and gave up on killing the little buggers. I heard BIO D was really super clean but that is a jaw dropper. Details, I got none, but what killed them with DINO didn't even make em gasp with BIO. Crazy, no????
John
I bet if you take a good look they are all running blends.
Virgin Atlantic = B20
I have yet to see any company or agency with a fleet go to full Bio
Oh I take it back....... the most probable of places to run a fleet of B100............Berkley, CA
Undoubtedly you say that because you know that California leads the world!
Tbird,
The newspaper article didn't spec the Bio content. Actually I am surprised that it wasn't 10 or 5%. I wasn't all that shocked that it was Virgin that did the first ever Bio powered commercial flight, however. That guy is a entrepreneur that went from rags to billionaire and did that in england where the income tax tops out at 75% or some such idiocy. In spite of what that system sucked out of his blood stream the guy remains a social conservative and contributes heavily to welfare causes. It seems he is still in step with the conservatives with his blatant promotion of Boo and using his fortune and business to do it. I wonder if the Dino crew will find some way to clip his Virgin wings?
I read a piece long ago about the Berkley type experience. It said that if you want to see where the country will be in fifteen years go look at what is going on in our universities. The professors are the harbingers of nearly everything that happens. The blue collar workers of our great nation have and deserve my respect and gratitude but I don't go to a beer bar to find out what the future has in store cause at best they know what happened last week. The conversation I was having was one in which I was pondering why we spend SO much of our wealth on colleges and the group was composed of Geeks, primarily. Well informed and educated Geeks, but Geeks none the less. The other point agreed upon was that if 15 was too many outyears for your planning then look to California for the 5 to 10 year lead on popular thought. Berkley, being in Ca. I guess gets bounced back and forth from university fortune telling to less far down the road. I did a little superficial investigation and learned that the Geeks were right about that and I have never laughed off California or university professors or even Geeks, for that matter. War protesters took on a new tint when I found out that they were well stocked with Vets that were deep into University and the really prominent ones were in California. God knows they make my stomach flip for at least the year it takes me to catch up, usually. But I am learning to not jump to any conclusions cause they aren't always right in the long run and sooner or later they will screw up...thats just common sense.
I have every hope of burning my own brewed Boo and cost is my driving factor. I would do 100% if I knew the quality.
Thanks,
John
PS: Look up Webster's def of "common"...as in sense.
just read an article...
Due to the cleansing properties of Bio Fuel you will realize quicker oil contamination resulting in the need for shorter oil chg intervals.
also mentions due to the high Biological and water contamination susceptability, that you test your fuel regularly
Teke,
You are certainly right to be pointing out all the risks and downsides to bio. I think that, over a period of time, there will be a lot of progress with the stuff from innovation, standardization, and experience. I like the idea of using it and will still look into getting my coach ready to do it. That does not mean that I will run with 100% bio all the time though I may try a little. How much are the oil change intervals diminished? Is there a benefit to having a cleaner engine that makes it worthwhile? There are lots of unknowns, hype, and predictions of doom. It is really valuable to have a forum like this to filter through some of it. I would still really like to talk to someone that has been running bio in an old Detroit for a while.
Lin,
I can't imagine the guys running Bio not getting intouch with you. Look into WVO or SVO....that is the free fuel crowd.
After you have run some of the stuff in your tank your lines will be clean again. That will cost you some filters. With ALL THE TROUBLE DD went through and all the hyper warnings about going without a filter cartridge, clean fuel lines are a location worth striking out for. Me thinks, anyway.
As far as your crankcase.....The Bio has no impact unless you have fuel blow-by in the cylinders or a leaking line in the head. It isn't supposed to get there. Along those lines is "synthetic" motor oil. It is also a serious detergent and will clean an engine beautifully in short order. The problem with crud in the interior is that the crud actually consumes or depletes the detergents in the oil so your oil life is shortened for safe operation. I always flush my crankcase with diesel for 5 minutes before draining. Ratio is a gallon in the crank case regardless of capacity of A GAS ENGINE. Run warm engine at fast idle and drain. Clean engine for clean oil. Now if you fill with synthetic your oil will get dirty soon after your first change. Thats OK and the filter will handle it and you can still run the extended milage. The second fill with synthetic will stay cleaner looking for a longer period. The stuff does run cooler and last longer and is slipperier and is cleaner....and on and on. It is a really big deal with the truckers in their diffs, also.
I am with you....if there is a problem "they" will work it out. There are many out there that hate the stuff and their really BAD experience will drive their opinion for a long, long time and that is to be expected. They help keep us out of the woods, too. No problem....it takes a village or group or swarm or coven or whatever....it just takes more than one. Why we are here and answer each other even when we don't agree. Thanks, Teke.
Good luck,
John
I agree the snafu's will get worked out eventually.
What I found interesting is that if you search for Bio D WVO or SVO only the good stuff come up......way down on the list like 10,000'th item you will start to find research papers and studies that are not done by people who have a gain to be had.....thats where you find alot of the drawbacks......unless you can findsomeone with real world experience that does not have an agenda and will speak freely to both pros and cons.
WVO guys are the free fuel guys...SVO cost money.
drawbacks there is finding it ( good stuff) filtering it and keeping it thin. Keep in mind Bio clouds at 50 WVO and SVO are thicker to begin with
Lin,
the 4104 project I am invloved with has a bit over 500 miles on B100 for the most part......but even with all the mods we did, they still had to dilute to B50 to start in Oct in Idaho Washington and Oregon. They would not have done it if they didn't have to.
there are lots of forums on Bio but most are on SVO/WVO.
keep in mind in reading, the vast majority of these people are a bit ...no alot left of center....and as with most people at the frindges they will not even think about hearing or saying anything negative about "their" cause
Teke,
I agree with all that with one exception. Holding that attitude keeps you alert to the BS but it also closes the mind to new or even valid supporting info. But I agree with you....really.
Lin,
I was perusing the shelves at Borders a couple days ago. Specifically looking for data on this topic. I found a book by a "Kemp" , I think, that was almost 5 inches thick. He is a professor and almost entirely occupied with alternative fuels. That "tome" was devoted to the Bio issue and WVO and SVO and WMO. His was the seminal reference work on the subject as close as I could tell. It seems that there are a number of really prestigious Universities that are deep into this subject and have labs for dedicated Bio research. One that I read about, and I think it was Colorado, used sawdust as a compost heap to warm the waste oil for part of the processing that required heat. They had a big pile of compost piled down the side of a hill with barrels buried and pipes running through it. They were making Bio from WVO and their goal was almost no purchased energy being used in their process. Really a neat story, I mean really neat what these young CONSERVATIVES were cooking up(no pun intended). Oh yeah, the compost heap caught fire with the barrels in the middle in the winter and they had to call out the FD to put it out with high pressure water (what else?) hoses. They knew it was headed to combustion because of all the sensors they had buried with all the barrels and pipes so they had the FD on-site with plenty of time to spare. No oil burned and they didn't loose any of their apparatus. The book sold for $29 and I will get it next week. There has got to be a post or two in there. Teke is right though....you have to watch out for those "true believers".
Happy trails,
John
like bio or not it's here to stay DD,Cat and Cummins have been working on Bio engines for the last 3 years John Deere is making farm equipment to use it. I think it's a great thing for the USA as I see farm land in Texas that hasn't been used in years being prepared for use canals being cleaned , the farmers making a few dollars and the fuel will get better in a short time as a Bio plant can be built in months not years and the price will get lower with time and improvements in production
thats funny, because the entire corn belt is anti Biofuel as wellas our local PA farmers for the most part.
For those buying Bio.......just learned this about an hour ago from someone I know in the industry.
About 75% of all Bio Production does not meet the Fuel Products Standards. that doesn;t mean it won't burn...just to say that the industry is not regulated strictly.
Our local plant in my home town has varaiations from batch to batch....pretty drastic variations.
Do you think corn is the only product that can be used
of course not....and thats not all they grow in the breadbasket of the US.
I just find it ammusing that Farmers in General are not in favor of a product that they can provide/sell the base ingredient for.
I have not heard but last month Kraft, one of the largest Schoolie operators in SE PA switched the entire fleet to B20
[quote author=tekebird .
I just find it ammusing that Farmers in General are not in favor of a product that they can provide/sell the base ingredient for.
It's funny that the farmers are the ones building the 55 million dollar plant to make the fuel in Texas
If the farmers are building a $55m biodiesel plant, you better be checking to find out how many government dollars are involved. Farmers are not stupid, and biodiesel cannot compete price wise with dino fuel so there has to be subsidies somewhere.
got me if you read my entire post I was talking about the breadbasket of the US kansas the nebraskas Etc etc and PA...not the south...... I don;t follow the news down that way.
I bet yas they get that plant built before Silver Eagle rolls out the first bus...LOL
maybe they can do a joint venture and it can roll out rnning on B100 ::)
Teke, you have been dropped on you head 1 to many times try putting a pork chop around you neck and see if you can get the dogs to play with you
JOhn, you just have to keep an open mind and really read the stats......
just like Light trucks......seems all through the 80's Ford and Chevy both had the best selling truck with the best resale price etc etc......
when you pay for studies....the present them in the light that you paid them to be.....skewing data is not uncommon in any industry.
I am just giving the warning.......considering all the BS I read....alot of which was refuted by people in the Bio industry and that are pro Bio.
it is a still a fringe group and fringe technology.......
No it won;t ruin your engine.....will just cost you X dollars to make it work (Bio) 2x or 3x to make the WVO work plus the possibility of Bio fuel related breakdowns.
last statement is based on Buying the stuff that is professional quality.....not stuff you stoll from your grandpappy's old stil up the holler
HUH?
Hey two stroke......which plant are you talking about.....so I can edumacate myself......
Teke,
I think your cautions are well stated and well made. Thank you for your opinion and good council. In point of fact, Bio is NOT well regulated and a lot of bad stuff HAS been sold. The spec IS MOST CERTAINLY THERE but the frequency of testing is abysmal as currently required. The cost to run a full blown analysis is close to one thousand dollars per test. Little guys/producers can't do much testing so the consumer suffers. The universities are working on developing cheaper testing and the industry is calling for Gummint supported testing to protect the consumer and still promote Bio. Some universities are offering testing at reduced charges and others are making their labs available to local "brewers" to come in and test their product.
Maybe there is a constructive tone missing in some of our posts. I know that there is bad bio. I know that GOOD bio can be made. I know that the required testing periodicity and associated criteria are not sufficiently stringent. etc, etc. The need is too great and the potential benefits are proven so we all need to get behind this and make our informed voices heard. I have an opening shot that I think is of paramount import: This industry MUST BE KEPT COMPETITIVE and local to the greatest extent. No more EXXON...No more ENRON. We have suffered from the "economy of scale" that has brought us corrupt monoply designed to benefit the few at the expense of the many. Based on dismal experience with the private sector I would even be supportive of nationalized BIO. Seems to be working for Chavez and the Vens. Hey, if EXXON is infuriated with him he must be at least partially OK. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that. Not to make this political, now.
If you know of a study done at a State Sponsored University that was skewed to the point of view of the sponsor of the study YOU CAN TAKE ACTION. Your State U. is supported by your tax dollars and you are the beneficiary of their work product. Your elected reps and Governor are your agents and if they are not doing their job vote them out in the gen elect or primary. Look closely at who violated the integrity of the U and what their political affiliation has been. This isn't a political discussion, this is Gummint 101 for High School and that course was cut from the curriculum by ? in what year? for what purpose? and who benefited?
Ever the true conservative,(and i can prove it)
John
just to add a little entertainment to this thread, a guy here on Vancouver Island salvaged a 1964 GMC SDH 5302 with a 6V71 with huge mileage on it in 2000, set it up with a crude 2 tank WVO system, and drove it 15,000 miles across Canada and back in 2001 for zero fuel cost .... I saw the bus a few years later, still running on WVO, and someone locally has it now, mostly parked, but roadworthy - there's a long video here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7718353757373584196) of the [music group] tour of Canada, a little artsy, but interesting
Hal told me that Ottawa transit did a dyno/emissions test that said 95 hp on diesel, 103 hp on grease with less visible emissions [smelled like a donut shop to me :D ] . . . . a 2 tank system takes care of the temperature problem, starting and shutting down on straight diesel, run the WVO once warmed up
Bill
a two tank systems is pretty much a necessity with SVO/WVO
Bill47Clip,
See, now that was my info from the "scientist". He had graphs of "all" oils and there were only a couple VOs that didn't have more BTU's of energy per unit of volume than DinoD. Your quote of the Ottawa experience seems to support that.
There is one aspect of this that really boggles my mind: You can get "BAD" batches of BioD no matter how careful you are. They can't explain it and only tell you to not use oil from that restaraunt again. Some of the BAD product you cannot even re-refine. They call it "goo" and it is a real tragedy for clean up and disposal. I have never heard this said about any WVO that was run. Maybe the message is to not mess with a good thing. Don't know.
One of the bad byproducts from the BioD refining process is glycerin. They are now making a high quality soap from that and selling it. There is no end to these people. I guess if you turned them loose they would become EXXON.
I am really torn on this. You need to install line heaters if you run straight Bio at even Fall temps. You have to install line heaters and all the rest of the thermo kit to run WVO anytime. The thing that scared me was that the oil going into the injectors was pistol hot and the stuff is supposed to "cool" the injectors. Yet the woods are full of people that have results so great with WVO that they are positively giddy about it.
This is really deep!
John
This thread started out as a question on using biodiesel in his bus engine. It has morphed into a lot of opinions (discussion) on vegetable oils and biodiesel without any mention of the kind of vegetable oil or the kind of biodiesel being discussed. You can't compare apples to oranges - you can't even compare a grannysmith apple to a red delicious apple. Different kinds of apples and different kinds of fuel.
There have been long discussions on propane versus butane because one has more BTUs oer unit volume and the other has more BTUs per unit weight. This thread is the same kind of discussion.
John - the "critical" variable with WVO is hydrogenization, that type is fairly solid at room temperature - the bionuts around here avoid it, Hal never got WVO from McD's :o
Bill
japanese restraunts are touted to be the best source of WVO as far as qulity.
I would suggest that anyone interested in doing Bio or SVO/WVO conversion find someone locally who has done it and become their shadow. and see things first hand.
the WWW is not really a place to get a accurate portrait......as there are two many sides and aspects
the problem with WVO on a bus is trying to find 100+ gallons of it at a shot...or stopping every day to hunt for it.
if your that gung ho then go for it. If you want to spend your vacation vacationing then run diesel.
Bill,
Thanks! Something else to not digest from McD's. I didn't know that.
Stan,
It is WAAAYYYYY worse than you think. The oils have distinct characteristics between varieties. Those distinct characteristics are also variable from year to year and where the source crop was grown and from whose seed. It made me dizzy...but that is less of a challenge than I like to admit. The thing is like every other engineering/chemistry operation...."this is always true....depending on...IF...when"...cough gag. The other way to say this is "that isn't necessarily true" about everything stated or asked. Somehow they, the hobbiests, have ways to juggle their refining process and procedure to compensate for the variety and condition. The little guy runs test batches to get his process exactly correct before he delves into the entire 40 gallons kit and kaboodle. Sure its complicated...but if that is as far as we go we aren't gone far...everything can be made complicated by somebody.
Your logic certainly isn't wasted. though.
Thanks,
John
John: Not necessarily waaaay worse than I think. Last year I had some correspondence with a grad student doing biodiesel research at a Western Canadian University. Yes - Canada is dumb enough to export petroleum and use food grain for fuel. When I asked him if it was an energy positive fuel, he conceded that he did not know and it was not part of his research. Since this was an agriculture department program one would think that positive energy output would be the first requirement and it puts the whole program into question.
I appreciate that this thread has remained civil and has a lot of information but when one post refers to a product and the next one indicates that it is wrong because of data about a different product is really confusing to the newby.
Stan,
No worries Mate. Civilities or no, we are still trading info and opinions and with each post we more closely define each. For my part it would be OK if you weren't "civil" by the popular definition. Style does matter to me but I really want your opinion and data....even if it is a comment on where we have gone wrong. I value all your input. I know that I can stand my own as far as being and A *OLE....I was a noncom and a civil servant in the defense industry. A guy I shut down once told me "you will never get a hemorrhoid, ever, its impossible. Cause you are a PERFECT A *HOLE". Imagine, me perfect. Mother would be so proud.
As far as where this thread started.....we are still on WVO, SVO and BIOD. So far WVO gets a lot of rave reviews from users and it is free fuel. Scientists see a dark side in there and some engineering tests confirm buildups. Still, the masses rave on about the virtues. SVO gets some cautions from the scientists but is supposedly better than WVO. BIOD gets a raving pass with cautions. It is a proven superior fuel to Dino in almost every way but cold running and diluting it or using line heaters make "all better". The BIO is susceptible to poor quality due to refining mistakes or poor stock. Horror stories abound but all are anecdotal in nature and cannot be repeated so science and engineering reject their data. BIOD has been proven to work well in diesel, home heating oil, and JP4 applications and is considered a replacement for Dino.
As far as being energy neutral, alcohol isn't energy neutral. It even creates a worse carbon foot print than DINOG. From a balance of payments standpoint I think it is still a positive step...don't know though. BIOD does recover more energy and is positive even at the SVO stage, let alone WVO. Farmers are doing it and they are one group that doesn't work backwards. Maybe that is the proof.
ARCO is another oil company that doesn't use a single drop of SAUDI oil. They get all my bus. Saudi recently announced a "Boycott all American made goods" campaign. We can't do without them, though. Maybe just do as little as we can with them. Is that "political"?
Thanks all,
John
The input energy cost to obtain crude petroleum oil is almost all used in the production of the drilling equipment that drills the oil well.
The input energy cost for crude vegetable oil starts with energy used to build farm machinery, dams and canals and pumps for irrigation, fertilizer (from petroleum) fuel for the farm machinery and then the input costs of the crushing plant.
From the well head or the crushing plant, the raw material then starts its journey through the refining and distribution chain.
The SVO proponents only count the fuel used in the farm machinery to show how efficient SVO is to produce.
The agricultural subsidy and tax system are so convoluted worldwide that it is impossible to determine actual cost. The last report I read on biodiesel in the US was that it was being sold without road tax and still was higher priced than dino. That really restricts your market to the true believers who aren't using the fuel in a competitive industry and of course Willy.
The US will never become energy independent as long as they use the internal combustion engine unless the economic system reverts to the early 19th century. The large area with small population per square mile requires too much fuel for transportation.