Does anybody have a secret for eliminating stray reflections on the mirrors that make backing at night very difficult? I could drive backward down a freeway and parallel park at the mall during the day, but at night the reflections on the mirrors are disorienting and obscure my view. I'm sure my neighbors at the campground this weekend thought I had a few drinks before pulling in. I have the standard Ramco mirrors on my Prevost XL. I belive the culprit is light reflecting from outside the bus, hitting the dual pane side windows and then reflecting the image back onto the mirrors. It is worse in snow, like I had this weekend. I turn off every single interior light, even the dash, and use only the exterior running and docking lights (headlights off), but its still really bad. Any tips from you truckers? Buswarrior? Thanks.
Bryan
Backup camera, only way to go!!
I find my backup camera doesn't show things in the right spots. If I depended on my camera exclusively without the mirrors I would hit things. I need to adjust the camera or something.
At home I will not back in after dark. I pull in forward far enough to get off the street and wait until daylight. I have to back up a good 200 feet on a 10 foot wide driveway that has a 12 inch dropoff on one side. I have only about 6 inches clearance when I go by my porch. (Yes, I hit the porch once with my travel trailer, but the bus is much easier.)
Hello Bryan
Backing in the dark is challenging, and doesn't get any better as our eyes age.
For the driver's side, a piece of cardboard from the back of a pad of paper and simply held by hand in the strategic position to block the cross-bus glare helps. I keep one in the slot where the driver used to keep his paperwork.
Many buses don't let you open the window to get that piece of glass out of the way, so that option is only available to those with big openers.
The curb side mirror is a real challenge by yourself.
Of course, clean windows, in and out is important. Smokers will have to use the Windex/Bon Ami regularly to keep that hazy film at bay. Night time glare really shows up windows that aren't clean.
And, of course, remember, never worry about how long it takes to make a clean manoeuvre.
Real men have a GOAL: "Get Out And Look"
I might suggest we have to defend against the boy in all of us has something to prove...
I don't know a male who doesn't.... ::)
The flashing turn signals down the side of the coach may give you brief snapshots of slightly better clarity, but then may dazzle if there is rain on the windows and the mirror, so a mixed blessing.
It can also help to have an assistant out with a good flashlight to illuminate your path, (not shine it at you, you've seen them out the back of the RV shining the light at the mirrors, blinding the driver) The assitant needs to be somewhere more forward and aiming it back at your target points or the obstructions, as your needs dictate.
A permanent solution to independent night time backing is adding some better lighting down the side or at the rear of the coach, similar to what the truckers do with rear facing lights.
Even a good bright light in a traditional back-up light can make a difference , if the rear stands out bright in your mirrors, cutting through the glare.
Go out somewhere in the dark and do some experiments with an assistant, a ladder, and a combination of bulbs or fixtures on a long wire and have them hold it in various places you are willing to mount it and see if you like the results. Pay particular attention that you don't mount it where it will cast illumination onto the mirror, negating some of its benefit.
You might be surprised how little changes you might make to suit your needs. Even one of those neat fixtures on transit buses mounted to either side of the doors down low that illuminate the ground when the door is open with a plain bulb in it makes a world of difference.
Have some concern in your mounting design for how you might protect higher side mounted ones from meeting untimely removal by dragging tree branches.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Ooops, an update:
The ultimate Real Man waits until daylight.
Good plan, and secure in his manhood!
Back up camera only helps with what it is aimed at and what it shows. It won't keep you from dragging or swinging the side of the coach into something, which is a way more prevalent reversing accident than actually striking something with the back bumper.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
If backing at night and the camera doesn't work or we do not trust the camera then we use the following procedure.
First, get out and walk around the area you are about to back up in.
Second, identify spots or issues that may get the bus stuck or someone injured.
Third, get out the little hand held walkie talkies. Turn off inside lighting. Let eyes adjust.
Fourth, backer turns on flashlight and uses only agreed upon signals along with voice prompts.
Fifth, go slow!
Sixth, go slow!
Seventh, if any serious problems are considered or a real possibility of injury. Stop wait until sunlight or move to a better location.
Thanks, all. Very good advice. Erudite as always, Buswarrior! I have a b/u camera, but, as noted, it only shows what is directly behind me, not the sides, and it is hard to judge distances.
Seems no matter how I plan my trip, I never get "there" until after dark, no matter where "there" is.
Bryan
Quote from: grantgoold on February 19, 2008, 06:31:33 PM
If backing at night and the camera doesn't work or we do not trust the camera then we use the following procedure.
First, get out and walk around the area you are about to back up in.
Second, identify spots or issues that may get the bus stuck or someone injured.
Third, get out the little hand held walkie talkies. Turn off inside lighting. Let eyes adjust.
Fourth, backer turns on flashlight and uses only agreed upon signals along with voice prompts.
Fifth, go slow!
Sixth, go slow!
Seventh, if any serious problems are considered or a real possibility of injury. Stop wait until sunlight or move to a better location.
Between First and Second....
LOOK UP! Here There Be Trees!
I never answered your the question about reflections in the mirrors.
The main part of my driver's window slides open unlike a lot of buses. I just open the window and the reflections in the mirror usually go away. I'm actually seeing reflections from the window, not the mirror.
Do you think that inspecting the area and laying something like a bright yellow caution ribbon on the driver's side could be used as a guide to follow? You would still use the spotter if available, but also know that you had to stay within a couple of feet of the ribbon. If it were in a campground and electricity was available, you could use a string of cheap Christmas lights as landing markers.
I can't tell you how many times when backing I would set the parking brake and get out to look behind at the situation-even with someone there spotting for me. Back up cameras help, but nothing beats getting out for a looksee. Good Luck, TomC
the small chemlights for fishing lures.
I always walk the site first, day or night. I keep an orange traffic cone that I put where I want the left rear corner to end up. Try to always back in from the left side. If you have an assistant, be sure to understand and practice your communications. Even with radios, if your helper is saying "right, right, right", does that mean move the rear of the coach to the right, or turn the wheel to the right, or just always be right ;).
With my wife ( and the traffic cone), the instructions are to always be able to see me in the left mirror and only tell me to stop if I'm going to hit something. That doesn't do much for your night time situation.
I have very bright back-up lights and turn off all the coach lights. I sometimes put a flashlight inside my traffic cone.
Len
Speaking from the outside spotters position make sure your communication with the driver is good. We use hand signals when backing our bus up. Since I used to park aircraft when I was in the military I just adopted those hand signals. If we are parking at night I use a flashlight and the same signals. Just try out a couple of different ideas that have been posted here on a night (preferably someplace you are familiar with) and see what works best for you. :D
Thanks for all the suggestions. I especially like the cone idea. Yes, I always get out and walk the site before backing and I have installed a set of bright fog lights under my rear bumper, but my problem is seeing out through all the stray reflections bouncing off the windows and mirrors. It's like seeing double or triple in the mirrors and really hard to figure out which is the true view. Very disorienting. The cone with flashlight inside will probably be bright enough to cut through the reflections to show what I am truly looking at. I will also try the cardboard glare blocker suggested by Buswarrior. Brian, opening the window is the right idea, but does not work for me. On my bus, the driver window is split vertically, and opens from rear to front. So if I open the window I now have the reflections off four layers of glass before I see the mirror. Somebody wasn't thinking when they designed that! Thanks again.
Bryan
The very first rule we should understand driving our large bus conversions is that we never, never back up at all ever and even if we have to...don't. End of discussion. :) :) :)
And what usually follows the directive to never back up, by the bureaucratic fleet decision makers, is the self fulfilling prophesy...
Don't teach anyone to back up, don't practice it in real world conditions (ever find a driver trainer out in the dark?) because they won't need that skill set, so that if they do, they will hit something for sure, proving the rule is sound.
And another SOB loses his job, and those in power sit around with self satisfied looks on their faces.
With apologies to the original source, in a different mode of transport...
A Superior Driver
is one who uses his Superior Judgement
to avoid situations which might require
the use of his Superior Skill
Trouble is, what it takes to develop that Superior Judgement....
Practice makes perfect, get out and reverse until you feel good about it!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Ah, grasshopper, we miss one important point and we have assumed prematurely. Dangerous word "assume" is. Never LEARN to back up at all as an end argrument? Not quite the same (actually entirely different, but I am being kind) as not TO backup at all.
When dad taught us to fly, we actually practiced dead stick landings in his nice old 170 (?) Cessna. Yes, it was considered dangerous (yep, it is!) but was conducted under very controlled conditions. He admitted the danger/benefit ratio was right on the ragged edge.
Reason he did it was to give his students a real world taste of what happens when S...x...x...T happens. I never had to to it for real, but I did it three (3) times for practice. Almost like a normal landing, but the power was off much earlier.
The point that relates to safe Bus Conversion driving is that we need to be responsible in all aspects of our coach operation. We need to practice, practice, practice doing "figure eights" backing down. We have fun doing this in a very large vacant lot filled with rubber cone things.
Practice gives confidence. Confidence combined with practice common sense and logic will prevent all sorts of bad stuff from even happening because it is not given a chance to even start. Make sense? I even do not back up in my VW Rabbit Diesel. Why?
Because in spite of me being an excellent driver (yeah, in my own mind!) ALL of my little lapses in judgement (stupidy) have occured with me...you guessed it...backing up. AUUUGHHHHH! Very embarrassing. LEARN to back up, then NEVER do sooss ever ever. Works for me. :) :) :)
I agree with BW,
Like the old saying goes, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?...... Practice, Practice Practice!"
For fun some weekend find a big empty parking lot and set up some cones in an alternating pattern.... Back through them, first, the easy way, by going straight, then the much harder way.... around each one both on the left and the right.
When you get good at that, move them closer together lengthwise, but farther apart side to side. Now back through them again.
For more fun, set up a pair of cones 8 1/2' apart and back up to them, with the goal to stop exactly as the bumper is even with them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
******************************************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
******************************************************************************************
When I was a driver trainer in the trucking industry, we were required to have the new drivers learn that course forward and backward with a 48' and a 53' trailer. If they hit one cone they had to start over again.
On test day, they got 3 chances to complete the course without error.
Now they put a warm body behind the wheel and point forward and "POOF" Instant Expert Truck Driver!
I could add some more of the exercises here too, but these should be enough to tell you what you don't know and do need to learn.
Good Luck,
Dallas
10-4!
Superior Judgement in play.
Be good at backing, avoid doing it!!!!
We're singing harmony.
happy coaching!
buswarrior