We've been running on Genset and inverter power for the last two weeks.
The genny is a 3.5K Coleman Powermate and the Inverter is a Sima 2500 watt MSW.
I've been running the generator to charge the house batteries and supply 120V for the rest of our modest needs while working on a 1950 Flx Visicoach out in the tooley bushes.
We run two home type computers from the inverter and have never had any trouble with either of them..... until yesterday.
When I got on line yesterday morning, I couldn't access any (and I do mean ANY) SSL websites. (For you that don't know, that's secure socket layer... the website will start with "HTTPS").
I tried all kinds of things, including deleting and reinstalling Firefox, repairing IE, resore from last known good configuration, playing with internet options, running various command line instructions, messing with the cell phone as modem, etc.
None of this had any effect on the fact that I couldn't even get to "My Ebay" or check email.
Late last night I decided to run Adaware again to see if there was a trojan or adware program blocking access. When I started the program up, it told me that my Adware definitions were 744,346,302 days old and would I like to update them. I clicked "no" as I knew they were up to date as of wednesday morning, and considered it a glitch.
But......
It bugged me all night long and something kept nibbling at my mind.
I finally got up at 03:00 and tried one more time.... no change. Then I shut down my computer for the 50th time but this time I unplugged it from the inverter and waited about 10 minutes before plugging it back in... kind of like resetting the ECM in a GM car.
When I fired my computer back up again, low and behold, everything worked, including being able to access hotmail, Gmail, Ebay and every other SSL website.
This is what I think happened:
The MSW inverter probably isn't at 60 hertz. It probably varies more one way or another as the batteries cahrge and discharge. I don't know this is true, but it does make sense.
The computer is controlled by an internal clock that reads the frequency of the incoming AC voltage, and if it isn't exactly 60 hertz, will build up a greater and greater error.
windows XP uses a time server that automatically updates the clock In Windows but not in the bios or on the motherboard, so the discrepancy is getting larger and larger all the time.
SSL uses an electronic time stamp to tell if the certificates it's looking at are valid, if they aren't, it doesn't let you proceed to the next screen or page.
When I unplugged the computer from the inverter, the internal battery took over again and reset the bios clock. when I plugged back in, the time stamp was acceptable to the SSL websites and let me log in.
Hmmmm, maybe I'm way off, but it did seem to work. What say our more engineering minded computer guru's? After all, I'm just a hardware and software tech.
Enfeebled minds would like to know!
Dallas
There is a PS to that. My computer was having the same problem so Dallas had me shut down and unplug and mine is also rolling just like it is supposed to now. I think he might just be on to something.
GREMLINS
Me....
I don't think it has anything to do with the inverter; two of ours did the same thing. There's a new version of Ad-Aware out and supposedly causes the date since last updating Ad-Aware SE to be almost 2 million years old! It still updated correctly, though, and worked fine. BTW, if one has problems updating definitions in Ad-Aware, you can download them manually at www.lavasoft.com (http://www.lavasoft.com), unzip them, and put the resulting file in Program Files\Lavasoft\Ad-Aware SE Personal\ folder (or whatever / where ever it is on your computer). I occasionally have to do this.
David
It would be interesting to see how many days adware says now how old your definations are. "Back to the futures" I bet it was the flx taking you back into time. :)
Drat, I got booted just as I was posting! :P
The Adaware Definitions are now 730,496 days old... a little better than before.
David,
It wasn't only Adaware that was off.. The Cell phone as modem software was also reading strangely, as in January 26, but with no year.
Gotta love computers!
The public utilities don't put out exactly 60 hertz all the time eather.
Dallas, remember the problems with my desktop? It still thinks it's a toaster, it is only 2 years old and functioned perfectly, I unplugged it and carried it out to the bus, where it sat for about 2 weeks until I tryed to hook it up and use it at BK's and it was a no go, would start to boot and then immediately go into power saver mode and shut down, we never did figure that glitch out. Even worse for me is it is burning the toast lol. Tom did take my hard drive and transfer the important files to my laptop but he couldn't get a handle on the computers sudden urge to retire either.
Power lines are maintained at 60 Hz average over a long time. If 60 Hz drops to 59.9 for ten seconds, it is slowly ramped up to 60.1 for 10 seconds, then eased back down to 60.0. Over a long interval it works out to a steady 60.0000. The frequency drifts in the short term but is forced to drift the other way until it all averages out. It is monitored internally and adjusted as required. A "Closed Loop" system.
Clock, as used in electronics, means a steady repetitive frequency. Crystal and digitally synthesized clocks are very consistent in the short term, but also consistently inaccurate. If a clock is supposed to run at 25.000 and it runs at 24.999, it will be very consistently and predictably slow. Crystal clocks are very good for short term use, stopwatches et cetera. Long term, they require external manual resets. An "Open loop" system.
So 60 Hz for the long run; crystal or synthesized for short term measurements. If the computer derives time clues from 60 Hz, you might be right. Commodore 64s did that, I doubt if PCs do. There is no 60 Hz output from the power supply to the motherboard.
Computers don't get the line frequency to adjust the internal clocks.
All are D.C. powered internally. Yes even desktops.!
There is a CMOS clock with a crystal on the motherboard and a small lithium battery.
What can actually happen is that when you use a non-sine wave inverter there are boatd loads of harmonic noise that is sent into a power supply. This noise can travel across the a.c. to d.c. converter circuits and into the computer. Most d.c. to d.c. converters ( internal ) that are used to generate the multiple voltages for the motherboard can pick up this extra noise which can get into the internal workings and raise havoc with timing to the processors.
Ok, Here is the goodie tech; Your dc. to ac. Inverter is operating with an output freq of 60 hz. If it is a non sine wave unit it does that in steps. Gernerally 256 steps more or less. Each step has a dirty level shift and creates a harmonic spike. The output filtering is marginal at best and these high and low frequency spikes get into the output which is filtered to pass mostly a 60 hz signal. Anyone can see this on a scope....
Noisy 60 hz power with the extra noise goes into the computer power supply. This is usually actually a transformerless design or "switching" power supply. These have their own oscillator circuit that converts the input frequency to a high frequency signal at a high voltage. This steps across a small toroid style transformer circuit at about 20 khz. On the other side are a series of rectifiers and voltage regulators that filter, reduce and output the required voltages for the computer and accessories. Typically 3 volts, 5 volts, 12 volts and -12 volts.
The internal filters are tuned when designed to filter at 60 hz and 20 khz typically to eliminate harmonics from feeding through to the output. These filters may allow other harmonics to pass along and get by and into the output dc voltages...
Confused Yet?
Ok, that;s the theory anyway. Non sinewave inverters can confuse or disrupt the following;
LCD & Plasma TV's ( confuses the onboard computers ) (Causes remotes to not work)
Computer and Laptop power supplies, Any device with a switching type of power supply.
Cell phone chargers and others. Video Switchers, Satellite Receivers (direct & dish )
( on my dish system the +18 volts for the LNB dies occasionally when on inverter power changeover and back ).There's probably more..
Good luck Guys.....
Dave....
Dallas,
As Dave said, your computer is not using line frequency for any kind of timing. In fact, most computer power supplies made today are "universal" -- designed to work fine on either the 60Hz North American standard, or the 50Hz European standard.
Which still leaves you trying to figure out your connectivity issue.
While I do agree with Dave's analysis of how MSW noise can get through power supplies and into sensitive electronics, my direct experience is that most modern electronics, including almost all computers, are not susceptible and work fine on MSW. (Anything with a motor in it is a different story, including laser printers, which are very sensitive to this problem.)
You did not mention how you are accessing the Internet. There are a number of issues that can crop up with SSL having to do with proxies, gateways, and firewalls. If you can tell us how you're set up, I can make a more educated guess. I would not automatically conclude that the date/time issue with Ad-Aware is at all related to the SSL problem.
You can easily check the date and time on the computer when this problem occurs to see if it is out of whack. Also, you can tell Windows to automatically keep your computer's clock synchronized to any number of network time servers (unless, like me, your ISP does not route to your IP -- I have to use third-party software to sync my clock).
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: lostagain on January 25, 2008, 06:41:51 AM
The public utilities don't put out exactly 60 hertz all the time eather.
The utilities are connected together in a national grid and time corrections are made every night just before midnight. Typically only a few thousands of a second off, but corrected to the national/international atomic time clock for exactly on time.
Richard
Thanks Dave and Sean,
I knew I was missing something simple! I did know that Switching power supplies as used in Home PC's deal in DC, Not AC, I guess the excitement I felt when after unplugging the darn thing and then plugging it back in got to me and let me jump two, three or four conclusions. thanks for breaking my fragile little bubble and leading me back on the path to reality.
Now I am stumped..... except...
As Dave mentioned, cell phones and the chargers are at times affected by MSW inverters.
Sean, I access the internet on a AT&T/Cingular 3G connection through my cell phone. I can send you the proxy, gateway and other information if you need it, but trust me, it's usually a fairly simple connection working through the AT&T ISP Server.
The Adaware time stamp was only what got my attention. The Cellphone as Modem logs also showed a date stamp 24 hours+/- in advance of the current date, except that it showed no year stamp which it always has before.
Here's something else to throw a wrench into the monkey works..... I use ICS so that Cat can get online through wireless 802.11G and she was having the same problems, even after my problems had cleared up from the restart... until she shut down and let the computer sit powerless for 10 minutes or so before a restart. After that, her connection was both A.) Hunkey and B.) Dorey.
To add to the confusion, we were parked only about 100' from the local Cingular/Alltel/Verizon cell tower. Could the emissions from the tower have affected the computers? Should I fashion a new baseball cap from alunimuminum foil?
Whee, this is kind of a fun topic and at least I can speak with some intelligence since I was THE IT guy for a small electric company at one time. (Of course I had a staff of one and the employee under me was insubordinate to say the least!)
I was also the Hell desk, umm, I mean Help Desk guy when we set up as an ISP back in the olden days of 14.4 being a fast modem.
Dallas
Dallas,
If the cell tower is causing computer problems I
would move before you become sterile :)
Skip
Computers are very sensitive to sharp voltage spikes and drops. When you were working on the Flx, were you running a power saw, electric compressor, or other high power item while a computer was on or in standby? Most computers can even suffer from "dirty power" even while turned off but still plugged in.
As for why the problem was solved after power was completely removed? The power supply of most computers supply power to certain circuits, including the memory, even when "off". I have experienced times when the computer would not boot even after repeated resets and forced shut downs. But after turnning the power off from the switch on the back of the power supply for at least 15 seconds, it would come up fine.
I have been building and using PC's since the IMSAI and Altair days. Every since Windows 95 I have been of the opinion that Microsoft incorporated AI (artificial inteligence) subroutines and gave Windows a very mischevious personality at its core.
Dallas,
I would be interested to know two things when this happens next:
(1) Look at the date and time on the computer. Time should be on the far right of the task bar, date displays in a callout when you hover your mouse over the time. Or Start/Run/CMD then date/t and time/t will get it for you. If one or both is/are incorrect, then we can look at where the computer(s) may be picking up a corrupt time value.
(2) Try "repairing" the connection. Hover over the appropriate network icon in the system tray, then right-click and select "Repair."
If this was related to either MSW noise or EMI of some sort, it's hard to imagine what sort of problem would affect HTTPS but not HTTP. FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: Sean on January 25, 2008, 01:10:48 PM
If this was related to either MSW noise or EMI of some sort, it's hard to imagine what sort of problem would affect HTTPS but not HTTP. FWIW.
You raise a good point. It seams highly unlikely that a power problem would strike two different computers in such a specific way.
Dallas, you have mentioned your AdAware, what about your anti-virus software, are the definitions and software itself up to date? It is foreseeable that a virus could have affected two networked computers in precisely the same way. Why the problem went away after removing the power is a curiousity though. By any chance, when you shut it down normally, is it a full shut down or is it "hibernating" or in "standby"?
Hibernating saves the memory contents to the hard drive and then restores them from there on power up. Startup from Hibernation is a lot faster than a regular boot up and any open programs remain just as you left them. Standby mode keeps the memory running and puts all other hardware in a low power or off state. Power on from Standby is almost instant and everything is just as you left it.
.
Haven't read the other posts yets, sossss this is kinda maximum blind kinda. My dinkum-thinkum skills are absoultely non-existant, but it seems to me that a computer clock would have its own dedicated battery-type power supply to guard against all sorts of lousy commercial power delivery.
Is your inverter sine-wave or kinda sine-wave or is it kinda not sine wave at all? Maybe you have experienced a condition of lousy unclean power that compounds situations/problems within the computer? Kinda (love that word!) begs the question of running your computer thru a dedicated UPS? :) :) :)
Dallas,
Do you have to pay extra for AT&T/Cingular 3G connection through your cell phone? I have an ATT cell phone and have been thinking about doing that but if I have to pay much extra it won't be worth it.
High Tech,
My opinion of MS's Win versions is that there is more of a lack of intelligence than artificial!
Dallas,
I thimk you found the answer... Get away from that Cell tower!
The radiated power for them is not in milliwatts but many watts, Like 30 or more
depending on how many cell sites are sharing the tower.
My pacemaker gets funky within 200 feet of an operating cell tower. When you are that close also with basically unshielded computers and wiring, There is a ton of crap signals that can migrate into devices and raise caine...
Uh.. Lets say your CPU is a 2 gzh like most of the new onces. Place an operating computer in an environment saturated with 800-900 mhz and 1800-1900 mhz with a radiated power of several watts... The wires and cables and even circuitry inside the computer become and antenna.. Throw into the mess your 28 milliwatt wireless transceiver operating at 2.4 ghz...
Data will get jammed as well as signals and stuff will start working wierd...
As for the noisy inverter... I stand by that after years of experience with line noise and
inverter systems. Also setting up 2-way radio gear on towers with high power tv and FM transmitting antennas nearby.
RF is a Fickle and problematic foe.... It is not fun going up a 1,525 foot tower in the dead of night to install line filters and get RF burns trying to plug in a power supply for a repeater.
I won't ever do that again, Not even 50 feet.
Stuff happens for a reason.
Like I said earlier, I had the same thing happen (the Ad-aware thing) on two computers. Our PC's are not near cell towers and are not on any funky power. In fact, one is here at home and one is at work. I think the Ad-aware issue is unrelated to the other problems. I downloaded the latest definitions from lavasoft.com, and my Ad-aware time issue was no longer an issue - it still has the correct definitions date.
David
Dallas, are your computers identical to each other? I think that there might be a small chance that two identical computers would behave the same way as a result of outside noise, whether it's RF, line harmonics, or whatever. But for two different computers, at the same time? This seems impossible. (Aluminum hats, anyone?)
If the computers are different, consider booting one from clean media such as a recovery disk, after a hard shutdown. Then run a virus scan. If you have confirmed a timing issue, the common element might be something nasty and stealthy, preloaded from the boot sector before anything else has a chance to find it.
Don