???
Hi you all,
Jack referred me over here from the GMC Busnuts Google group.
Let me give you a fast explaination of what I know about coaches. In 30 years I started on with a '48 Chevy School Bus and the last coach I had was a TDM5302 which I built from scratch essentially.
The 4904 is newer technology than I'm used to. Some things stayed the same and some changed.
Now, for number 724.
724 originally worked for liberty lines. After that it was purchased by a guy who sold his own dog food and delivered it around the US. Right towards the end of that time the engine and transmission were rebuilt. He parked it about 2 trips later. Then the person I'm in the process of aquiring this from, he's dead, it's actually his wife, bought it, moved it, started to convert it about 8 years ago. He got about 60% done with the conversion. It has a large diesel Onan Generator. He died from Cancer, and since he was dead he could no longer start the bus, so it has not been started in at least a year and a half.
Well, about 8 months ago we started looking at it and now agreed to purchase it if it runs, holds air, and the transmission does what it's supposed to.
The point it's at right now with us is the 8D's were down. I've got one of them coming back to life slowly but surely on a trickle charger, but because it sat so long and it's below freezing and very cold here I don't want to attempt to start it until we at least have 48 hours above freezing. Got a half gallon of delo sitting outside and you can practically paint with it.
Now, I'll do a cut and paste of the questions I put up on the Yahoo group and if anyone can chime in and give their opinions and experiences doing things like this, please let me know.
Thanks.
I went back over and looked a lot harder today at the coach.
These are the things that stick out to me, and I'll post some
pictures.
First I checked the electrical system. Got 24 volts up. One of the
batteries is coming back.
First thing I noticed in the drivers compartment is the dash and some
of the accessory panel switches were sticking. Also, it has a
transit/commuter conversion for the turn signals. They're on the
floor.
Opened up the bay doors. The electrical harness appeared intact.
When I opened up the engine compartment and looked at the rear engine
control panel the panel had been left open for God knows how many
years. Mud bugs apparently found a nice place to make their nest. A
little bit of spaghetti. Essentially it needs to be fully
disassembled, everything cleaned, then put back together and sealed
back up.
The radiator has seeps. I didn't see any freeze damage. The tanks
look fine and it's a 4 pass radiator. I have no clue what the coil
cost now.
On the passenger entry door side all of the bay doors including the
battery compartment door are sprung off their top hinges they are not rubber. The middle
cargo/ baggage door had taken curb damage.
The 110 house power was not running conduit and just wire nutted
together. I didn't get as far as the house panel because it was
sleeting on me at the time. I've got a quick pic of the generator,
which I'll post. It's a large water cooled diesel onan.
I'm just trying to wrap my mind around 40ft. of coach sitting for
most of 10 years wondering how much effort it would take to make it
go approximately 2300 miles within the next 6 months or less. The
tire part is there but I have to say I am really scared of Alison
Transmission. And it was the original equipment. I looked for any
signs of retro fitting and did not see any sign that it ever had a
manual. I did noticed that the coach air is intact totally. And
there's one cracked window, but the replacement is there. Also the
engine compartment door supports have to be welded.
So, if people could give me their opinions, I'd appreciate it. I
really don't want to start it and try to air it up until it's above
freezing for a couple of days.
Thanks for everybody that's emailed me. I'll try to get back to you
I've just been busy.
Mike
As you know, sitting is not good for these coaches. You are taking a risk, as there will be things that don't work, or need replacement, and they may not all show up immediately - read before you buy it. I hope the price reflects this. I would hope below $5k.
The allsions have been pretty bulletproof, but it does have a lot of miles on it.
Onans do not have a good reputation.
While the batteries are coming back slowly, it sounds like you should just count on buying some new ones here even it will start. They are pretty old, and we all just get tired with age.
If you have no idea what the radiator cost these days, its sounds like you are going to get aquainted fast with that cost. count on a new one.
So it all comes down to cost and your time, if the project seems worth it. There are a lot of really good running coaches around.
Since I'm not familiar with the specifics of the 4104, I will let others chime in here. Best of luck to you no matter what you decide to do.
Mike,
I talked to you on the GMC board. Glad to see you made it over here.
By the way... It's a P8M4905A.... not a 4904.... no such crittur.
P stands for Parlor and M stands for Manual transmission... Which is what that coach originally came with. Not the VS2 that's in it.
It's hard to give you any advice on this coach until you actually have it running and aired up.
You would probably be well off to just go buy a pair of Group 31 truck batteries and see if you can fire it up.
You may also want to see if it has an engine block heater... if it does, you can plug it in for a few hours and it will be nice and toasty warm.
Supposing the engine does start, and that it does air up, and the transmission goes into gear, You should have little or no problem taking it as far as you need to.
The old Detroits and Allisons were built to be used, they won't shift like a car and were never meant to, they are built to move many tons of steel and aluminum down the road.
Don't worry about it so much, your in a great place now, if you take it across country and something happens, there are more than likely some bus nuts from this board and the GMC board that will pitch in to give you a hand.
By the way, if you kind of gave us an idea where you are and where the bus is, and where you need to take it, maybe someone could go look at it for you and help you get it ambulatory!
Good Luck,
Dallas
as there is no such beast as a 4904 I am assuming it is a 4905 considering it was ex liberty lines and a an auto.
first we have to know what the price is.
IMHO......being that ist is 2300 miles from where you want it and has been sitting that long..and having spent at least 15 years in NY/NJ winters I would say walk away.
There are likely better buses for the same price in your back yard......or a nicer one that you will have to do less work to at least.
just reading Dallas post now. the M is not an indicato of a Manual by this time....my folks P8M4108A was an auto from day one as per the FVR also by the time the 4905 was about it is likely to be a V730.....not knowing the year though.....
your battery will likely never bolt back to life at trickle charge rates after sitting so long......may take up to 96 hours at 10amp to bring it back, but I would plan on just buying new ones or one to get it home......voltage is not an indicator of a good battery....it is the amperage and the ability to take load is what is of consequence.
why are the engine door supports broken?
radiator core....looking at 1200.00 and something to do before a 2300 mile trip
now people on here will tell you I am a naysayer.......but I rather talk someone out of a problem than into one.
Issues to be concerned about:
Rust.....yep on a GM ( you eagle guys) the worst GM's I have seen ran in NY commuter service...they were run 260 days a year in some of the harshest environments a bus can find in the 1st world.
Airbeams are suspect right off the bat...they will air up with leaky air beams so that is not a good indicator.
all of the painted area on a 4905 is steel except for a couple pieces of fiberglass.....Once they start rusting there is no fixing it except for total replacement....it will come back. this is a very easily ID'd problem (visual)
I would expect the engine door frame to have rust as well
unless the tank was full I would plan on at minimum some fresh fuel, biocide and a couple sets of filters and the equip to change them ( a couple gallons of diesel and some way to fill the filters with it.)
As for the battery......it will start off a car battery if it has a block heater.....
main question: How much are you paying for it
secondary questions: How much are you willing to put into it to get it home
How much contigency money are you going to have on hand if it has a failure on the way home?
What is available that runs and is closer to home.
what else........ Oh, expect to do the wheel seals befor e a 2300 mile trip....I would bet it has oil seals....which do not like to be dry...and yours have been 1/2 dry for ten years.......they will fail when they heaat up.
the electrical stuff is an easy although perhaps time consuming job...switches are easily cleaned and lubed.
keep in mind you can get a running fairly nice 4905 conversion for under 30k and use it today of course you can also pay up to 90k for a professionally converted near showcar condition one.
again...I always try to get people to look at the worst case scenerio on these types of purchases. they are like dogs and cat and boats.......no such thing as a fre one or a cheap one
Hi Mike,
Welcome!
Theese guy's won't let you leave any room for mistakes... Lol
Hay, nobody's perfect and don't listen to them when they want you to be.
Keep on posting!
Nick-
just looked at the yahoo pics.
it is a VS-2, can be a problimatic tranny but when working is quite nice.
see it has had some rust repair in the suspect areas outside.
Very interesting use of an MC-5 or MC-7 window on the Driver's side.....wonder what inspired that?
again...all depends on the price...what it needs, how much time you are willing to invest. etc etc.
anything can be brought back with enough time(work) and or money
also keep in mind it's gonna cost you 1600.00 in fuel to get it home
Nick, Dallas, everyone else,
I'm in Morgan County Missouri. The coach is outside of Stover MO. It is probably 16 miles from my front door. The price at this point is $4000. But as I can see Radiator Cores have doubled or practically tripled since I last bought one. There is no inline block heater. I looked and looked and looked. Which surprised me being out of NY service. Sorry about having the type number wrong. It type like crap anyways.
One of the handicaps I see, even though the coach is very close to me is parts access. New or used. Just not much here in the middle of nowhere. I think that unless I lost the engine or transmission I could deal with just about anything that came up on the road myself. I was saying that because someone asked about contendencies and how much contendency money would I plan on having. Well, if I lost the engine or tranny, it would be an iron tent where it sat.
Also, one other thing I've noticed, which might be because of the NY service is all of the spare tire compartment is tinned in and held together with pop rivits.
If I go forward I do intend on buying new 8D's. But for the moment I just want to start it. There are a lot of other decent coaches out there. so why spend $300 If it's dead
Thanks for your time
Mike
Quote from: tekebird on January 21, 2008, 02:41:21 PM
just looked at the yahoo pics.
it is a VS-2, can be a problimatic tranny but when working is quite nice.
see it has had some rust repair in the suspect areas outside.
Very interesting use of an MC-5 or MC-7 window on the Driver's side.....wonder what inspired that?
again...all depends on the price...what it needs, how much time you are willing to invest. etc etc.
anything can be brought back with enough time(work) and or money
also keep in mind it's gonna cost you 1600.00 in fuel to get it home
$1600 for fuel Ok
My 53' TDM5302 got 9-11 M.P.G. 671/4 speed. I figered this one would get less With the Auto/Trans. But that is a lot less Ok I can plan on that If it does a little better I'll have some beer money
mike
I owned a 4905 (number 044). A very important thing to look for - RUST!!!! This coach has a steel skin around the drivers area, around all of the side windows and around the rear window and around the roof windows. If you see lot's of bubbles in the paint and can insert any type of probing device, RUN AWAY unless you are an experienced body person and can fabricate pieces and weld. Assuming the body is good, and everything airs up and the price is right, you may have found a good coach. I loved the big bays, the roof windows and the big D windows. I also thought it just looked cool.
Did this model have the pneumatic tag axle in the third bay? If it did, there will be two huge frame sections that take up a lot of load. There is disagreement on whether or not they are structural if the original type of floor is installed.
Where is the muffler located on your bus? There are 3 variations that I am aware of.
1. Under the floor in front of the engine - there were 2 sizes.
2. Between the engine and the radiator.
If the muffler is bad, this is a very expensive part. Mine was under the floor, was the bigger size, and was the least expensive to replace of the under floor type ($900.00 for new from US Coach, although he had a few damaged ones for about $400 as of August). HOWEVER, if it goes bad or is bad, it can melt your throttle cable, burn your wiring harness, and catch your floor on fire. This happend to my bus and totaled it. The muffler between the engine is less to replace, but it would cost more to convert the under floor type to the engine bay type.
Check to see what condition the original wood floor is in, especially under the drivers window. If you have rust there, (or around any other window) most you will have floor rot. If you plan to completely strip the bus, then no problem. My floor was heavily rotted. Also, the torsion bars for the baggage bays attach to the wood floor, look to see if the wood is collapsing under the strain. If so, new floor time.
I am usually very excited to hear about someone getting a new coach, and for most people it can be very rewarding and I don't want to be discouraging. In this case, you are looking at a model that has many differences from other coaches, even the rest of the GMC fleet. The other GMC's are mostly aluminum, but the 40ft models needed the strength. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me or call me. (517-887-2097) I never had so much fun as driving my 4905 across the Mackinac bridge in a blizzard with no heat and no door latch during my first time ever driving a bus! Good luck!
PS> -get 2 group 31 batteries to start it with. They are much cheaper than 8D's
Tekebird,
there are no airbeams or fiberglass on this model. It's one of the easier things about a 4905 :)
I've been looking for the link to the yahoo pictures and I don't see it. I'd love to have a look!
Thank every one
for the tips on rust and the muffler Want to get it started and aired up so I can see Cant see crap now Too low to the ground
the photos are under "future motor coach operator in training" in GMC busnuts
P8M4905A-724 from GMC New to Pelham Parkway Bus Company (White Plains NY) 07/1974. ;D
Liberty Lines might be the 2nd owner. ???
Just like any old bus that has been sitting you will have to do some maintenance to fix problems that you are finding.
If it will crank and run and drive out OK go for it.
I own a 1974 P8M4905A-738 and I have had good very luck with it it's been a good old coach.
I think that the GMC Intercity Coaches of this era were ahead of the MCI's and Eagle of the same era.
Of course this is my opinion so you MCI and Eagle owners do beat me up to bad.
I have a V-730 transmission in my coach and it along with factory Shepard steering makes it a real pleasure to drive.
I have seen the photos of your coach and I would say go for it.
Feel free to ask questions we are here to help. ;D
jlv
Mike,
I finally found the pictures on the GMC busnuts site. Here are some things I can tell you.
Good News:
You have the engine mounted muffler. Much easier to do anything with.
You have an air throttle
You have a great kid! Way to start-em early!
Nice Rear Cap.
Weird News:
Windows and blocked out areas. That's definitely an MCI window on the drivers side. Really take a good look at whatever was done to make it fit. Same thing with the passenger side RV windows. Check how the blocked out areas are attached. If it's small (1/4"), expect that they leaked. Some pretty weird looking bumpers.
It looks like steps were taken to fight rust, where it looks like it was primered. Could be a good sign. My bus came with the same seats that quickly went to a junkyard. If you are planning to reskin the sides, you may have a good deal here. Check the stuff everyone mentions and you should be able to make a very educated decision. If you want a parts bus, mine is still in Michigan. Good Radiator, bumpers, tons of parts. Just look up Larry Baker here on the bbs. He bought it from me. Good Luck!
Quote from: mike davis on January 21, 2008, 02:42:47 PM
Nick, Dallas, everyone else,
I'm in Morgan County Missouri. The coach is outside of Stover MO. It is probably 16 miles from my front door. The price at this point is $4000. But as I can see Radiator Cores have doubled or practically tripled since I last bought one. There is no inline block heater. I looked and looked and looked. Which surprised me being out of NY service. Sorry about having the type number wrong. It type like crap anyways.
One of the handicaps I see, even though the coach is very close to me is parts access. New or used. Just not much here in the middle of nowhere. I think that unless I lost the engine or transmission I could deal with just about anything that came up on the road myself. I was saying that because someone asked about contendencies and how much contendency money would I plan on having. Well, if I lost the engine or tranny, it would be an iron tent where it sat.
Also, one other thing I've noticed, which might be because of the NY service is all of the spare tire compartment is tinned in and held together with pop rivits.
If I go forward I do intend on buying new 8D's. But for the moment I just want to start it. There are a lot of other decent coaches out there. so why spend $300 If it's dead
Thanks for your time
Mike
Mike,
Walk away from that deal. You would probably spend the asking price just trying to get it roadworthy
and still end up on a hook or flatbed for the rest of the trip.
Breaking down on the road with a questionable coach will be the last thing that you want to do.
If you just gotta have that one, Get it trailered to you. Figure at least $250 to load and about $5.00 or more a loaded mile. What you are describing sounds way too scary at this point.
If it is in a dilapidated condition from sitting you may need to spend upwards of $10,000 just to get it running and stable and probably a year of work. For that kind of money you could pretty much buy a later model/brand bus or one in better shape...And one that parts are available for too....
I have had several orphans.. all needed more money and time invested than they were worth new!
Dave.....
dave
Is that $10,000 in parts or $2500 in parts and $7500 for someone to put the parts on ? Why I ask is I built a 53' TDM5302 from the ground up Rebuilt the 671 my self. So if it's $10,000 in parts I'll walk no RUN away There is a PD4501 for (asking) $7,000 in DE.
I'm just feeling this one out
thanks
mike
Quote from: Tenor on January 21, 2008, 06:31:51 PM
Mike,
I finally found the pictures on the GMC busnuts site. Here are some things I can tell you.
Good News:
You have the engine mounted muffler. Much easier to do anything with.
You have an air throttle
You have a great kid! Way to start-em early!
Nice Rear Cap.
Weird News:
Windows and blocked out areas. That's definitely an MCI window on the drivers side. Really take a good look at whatever was done to make it fit. Same thing with the passenger side RV windows. Check how the blocked out areas are attached. If it's small (1/4"), expect that they leaked. Some pretty weird looking bumpers.
It looks like steps were taken to fight rust, where it looks like it was primered. Could be a good sign. My bus came with the same seats that quickly went to a junkyard. If you are planning to reskin the sides, you may have a good deal here. Check the stuff everyone mentions and you should be able to make a very educated decision. If you want a parts bus, mine is still in Michigan. Good Radiator, bumpers, tons of parts. Just look up Larry Baker here on the bbs. He bought it from me. Good Luck!
Tenor
thanks for the tips about the windows I looked for water marks In the bus and in the bays I did not see any But that does not mean it's not there
The Radiator would be the big ticket idem for me right now. I have told my wife that a bus likes to spend money a $1,000 at a time. It can spend money faster than she does
so I'll go slow I'm still waiting for the PD4501 to jump out a tackle me
thanks
mike
Mike...reading between the lines...you aint gonna' be happy unless you get a PD4501! Am I right...and if so...why waste time on something you won't be totaly happy with?
Now if I am wrong...sorry.
Jack Hart
Quote from: jackhartjr on January 21, 2008, 07:46:29 PM
Mike...reading between the lines...you aint gonna' be happy unless you get a PD4501! Am I right...and if so...why waste time on something you won't be totaly happy with?
Now if I am wrong...sorry.
Jack Hart
jack
I DO want a PD4501 more than any other bus But I have been unable to get my hands on one that I could do with the $$$ I have
I want to move back to Tucson by Aug. My 5 year old has to go to school. The most $$ I can put in a bus by that time is $6500-7000. I cant find a PD4501 that I can do That will do what I need it to do in that time
I do look every day for one
I know Boo Ho I want a 4501 Does not like I'll get one now. It not the one that is here. It sucks. But oh well We will muddle. through If this or another bus does not work then We will go in our RV But with the kids I NEED 40ft not 26ft
mike
I'd make an offer on the PD4501, you never know, they may take it. I low balled the bus I have, and I'll be damned if they didn't take it. The dealer had three almost identical buses and sold a sister bus to one of their own employees for $10k more than I paid.
If that PD4501 is what you really want and dream of, find a way to make it happen!
Quote from: mike davis on January 21, 2008, 07:19:00 PM
dave
Is that $10,000 in parts or $2500 in parts and $7500 for someone to put the parts on ? Why I ask is I built a 53' TDM5302 from the ground up Rebuilt the 671 my self. So if it's $10,000 in parts I'll walk no RUN away There is a PD4501 for (asking) $7,000 in DE.
I'm just feeling this one out
thanks
mike
Ouch...That is a good question.
My Magic 8-Ball doesn't seem to want to work in these freezing temps here.
I really only threw out a figure. Not right or wrong. The end result of your search should include
the knowledge and ability that you already have. A Place to work on the bus and places to get
parts within reason. Having the knowhow but short on tools and workspace must be considered.
I get from the messages that you have about 5 months to get fully operational. It sometimes doesn't matter about the total money spent for making a bus road ready, But more a timeframe and learning curve. If you are not really looking for a Buffalo and would rather have a Scenicruiser then look for what you want.
However keep in mind that a Buffalo actually is a better choice because of interior usable space and ease of conversion. It does have drawbacks mainly with the V-Drive setup but that is why the interior and bay space for a 4905 is almost equivalent. No they don't look like a 50's vintage Scenicruiser but they also have a lot newer running gear and systems. You would be ahead by 20 years at least.
There is also a shortage of vintage running or reasonably repairable PD4501 Scenicruisers these days considering they were built for 2 years or 1001 units.
There are plenty of later model Buffalo's (PD4905xx) out there. Some could be in your price range and drive home if you do some searches. Many probably could do the distances you need with only minor work. A Buddy of mine bought one that was already converted a couple of years ago for $5,000 and the only thing he did was replace the batteries and tires. A few minor electrical issues took about a week of rewiring and he runs it all over to rallies.
Or.. If you already have a 26 foot MH, Get a trailer and make an extended living space. Gets the kids out of your hair at bedtime and although this may sound silly. I saw a converted 30 foot Neoplan Transit at a campground with a 25 foot trailer built to match the bus. Looked neat.. The shocking part was the next morning I found out the guy and his family of 4 kids all live in the rig and travel to jobs around the states all year. I was parked across from him with my MCI at the time.
So, If you want to wait and get what you want then have it your way. If you want a workable rig then slow down and see what you can find.
Dave....
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on January 21, 2008, 02:31:34 PM
Hi Mike,
Welcome!
Theese guy's won't let you leave any room for mistakes... Lol
Hay, nobody's perfect and don't listen to them when they want you to be.
Keep on posting!
Nick-
Nick
You own a H,V,A/C, co in N.J.?
I used to work out of L.I.C. N.Y. AFL/CIO local 638 A lot of chilled/hot loops there
mike
Mike,
Now that I understand your timeline, I'd look for a different deal. I got my MCI 7 in late September and I plan to have it ready (useable) for this spring. I got mine for $3500 with proper window removal, siding and new windows, air conditoners and lots more. The inside was stripped. I'd keep looking at least for an unmolested bus that you could at least start "tin can tenting" in this year. Get an MCI 7-9, pull the seats, put on some roof airs and get a couple of cot's and a portapottie and get started having fun. The scenic cruisers are awesome looking, but they are near to being made out of "unobtainium". No disrespect here inteded to the guys who have these, they are like Duesenberg owners with big goals!
Dave, Tenor,
I hear what you guys are saying. Let me define my situation a little more to show you what I'm looking at and how I'm thinking about it.
After going through 10 years of problems in my life (no not alcohol related or anything like that, It was like Limoney Snickets, "A series of unfortunate events"). I kinda came to feel like the character Moll Flanders even though I am not female. No matter what the best intentions were they all got off to a flying stop.
Now I have two small children. We are in this part of Missouri which is nowhere, then take a left two miles. And, we're not from here. My wife has managed to get sent through some of her educational courses for free. Now she can pursue some of her career goals and work on the next step.
We live in Tucson normally. A lot of the problems were caused by the explosion of housing costs in Tucson. About 400% in 7 years is what it worked out to. So, what was a fairly easy life style for at least cost and everything turned out to feel, at least like from our perspective, like we were trying to own a house on the Beach in San Diego. Thank God, San Diego tanked. Now all of the people that made them imaginary 100's of thousands of dollars now are running away from Tucson where they decided to dump their imaginary money and obtain the wonderful financing option called ARM with it, can't leave fast enough. I think an f-15 wold be too slow to carry them back to CA in their opinions.
Don't get me wrong. I lived in CA for a long time and love parts of the state, but I left CA because of the costs going up in the early 90's.
So, what I'm looking at doing. See, it does come back to a bus so it's on topic, is obtaining a reasonable coach, so the three roof airs are very important (desert climate in August). So, what the coach I need to obtain now should be capable of doing is transporting myself, my wife, our two small children and two cats, loaded medium heavy, because we do have some stuff (wonderful bays on this one we're looking at) towing our AstroVan (this coach is set up for towing already) and preferably able to generate it's own power for a couple of weeks in the summer to run the air if need be. Because, by the time I get to Tucson I will probably want a break before I do anything else.
So, I'm trying to balance my experience, my knowledge of coaches, although my knowledge is a Generation of Coaches behind this one and balance the attributes of the conversion because it is very important in the end. My kids must be cool, dry and comfortable with a place to put their toys and a place to store their toys that they don't have out because I'd never hear the end of it if I left just one matchbox car.
Mike.
Mike,
That's exactly why we left Florida last July and bought land in Tennessee...
All that was the Old Florida has gone to high taxes and crime rates headed for
big city values. Just couldn't afford to live there anymore.
So we loaded our MC9, trailers and trucks and moved on spec. No property to go
to at the exact moment but a plan.
We got here and closed a deal, paid and moved onto the property 2 days later.
then had our 40 foot shipping container delivered from Florida and dragged
everything else up here over about 6 months.
So we kinda came to a place that is 3 left turns and 2 white knuckle hills on a one lane road. Things are much better here. Pay is worse than Florida but living expenses are much lower.
I understand your needs for a bigger bus and if the one you are looking at is fixable in a reasonable fashion that might be a way to go. One point that I was trying to make (at the expense of PD4501 owners ) and not tryin to upset anyone is that there is by far more room in a Buffalo (PD4905) on the usable interior space than there is in a Scenicruiser.
The isleways and head clearances on cruisers is limited and making major changes to get more space is at a premium. I know I had one.(#598).. I found that the only way was going to be a major redesign of the upper and lower sections and making the floors flat.
They look neat but have a lot of needs for a 50 year old coach.
You need to have someone go with you and go over that bus from end to end and see what it really needs to make it usable for you. Don't trust yourself and your own judgement, Both may be jilted slightly out of context. Have someone go with you to play the devils advocate.
The next thing is the price. For the amount of rust and broken hinges and little stuff, then the radiator that you said was weeping. Have someone look at that also. Then decide what you want to pay. If it has been idle for 10 years in that kind of weather.. Be very careful....
It's not worth anything if it would cost more to send it to the scrap heap. I suspect the current owner already knows that. Be nice but be a realist about it.
Dave....
Dave, as a Scenicruiser owner...I can assure you we are not offendend! We new what we were getting into before we did it.
Jack
Mike, don't feel too bad. I too wanted a "senic", but it wasn't meant to be.
Turns out the 4905 is a mighty fine bus. I'm south of you in Arkansas. If you want, e-mail me and I'll share my knowledge of 4905's.
If you had a '53 GM, it was not a TDM5302. That's a fishbowl transit with a stick shift. No block heater on your bus because when Liberty was running 4905s, and maybe Tekebird can back or correct me on this, they ran fire watches. That means that on below freezing nights, buses were alternately started and run for about 30 minutes, shut off and then restarted and run again before they got completely cold. Can't do that today. Liberty Lines express buses spent their entire careers on some of the roughest streets in the world.
-- Seaton
Quote from: Charles Seaton on January 22, 2008, 02:48:31 PM
If you had a '53 GM, it was not a TDM5302. That's a fishbowl transit with a stick shift. No block heater on your bus because when Liberty was running 4905s, and maybe Tekebird can back or correct me on this, they ran fire watches. That means that on below freezing nights, buses were alternately started and run for about 30 minutes, shut off and then restarted and run again before they got completely cold. Can't do that today. Liberty Lines express buses spent their entire careers on some of the roughest streets in the world.
-- Seaton
a old look gmc 40' ft mid doors Ex greyhound By the greyhound paint and tag on the 671 last rebuilt by them in 67
I'll look for signs of stress on the 4905 thanks for pointing out the bad roads Most of my life I lived in the south ,south west or CA So I don't think of crappy roads right off the bat But your right
thanks for the tip
mike
Quote from: 4905 doc on January 22, 2008, 11:46:50 AM
Mike, don't feel too bad. I too wanted a "senic", but it wasn't meant to be.
Turns out the 4905 is a mighty fine bus. I'm south of you in Arkansas. If you want, e-mail me and I'll share my knowledge of 4905's.
cool I'm going back on Thursday I'm going to write all the tips i got here and then i'll get into contact with you
i'm pulling some big house batterys out of my rv and i'm going to try to crank it up
mike
Hey Mike,
How long ago was the bus started last? You may need to re-prime the fuel system. The bus will not self prime by cranking. On my 4905, there was a port, like a car air valve on one of the fuel filter system and I used an old fire-extinguisher filled with diesel that I could pressurize with my air compresser. I hooked a hose from the extinguisher to the nozzle and shot a bunch in. I hope someone else can supply an easier option. Who else in the world has one of those extinguishers! ;D Take a couple of gallons of oil with you too. I don't know what fluid the tranny uses, some use 40W for the engine and tranny. Mine was a stick, so I am not sure about the auto. Check the powersteering reservoir (green canister on the passenger side cradle beam that runs behind the main rear door). Mine used type F tranny fluid. Of course, check the antifreeze! I went to look at another 4905. The owner started it right up. After a few minutes, I looked at the dash gauge and saw no oil pressure. I ran to the engine to check there,-NO OIL PRESSURE! I shut it down, checked the dipstick - NO OIL! Lord knows how many times it had been run dry! I fired up an MCI after 5 years of sitting. It still had pressure and came to life in half of a crank. This one should too. It is so much fun checking out these old things! Good luck!
Quote from: Tenor on January 22, 2008, 06:00:40 PM
Hey Mike,
How long ago was the bus started last? You may need to re-prime the fuel system. The bus will not self prime by cranking. On my 4905, there was a port, like a car air valve on one of the fuel filter system and I used an old fire-extinguisher filled with diesel that I could pressurize with my air compresser. I hooked a hose from the extinguisher to the nozzle and shot a bunch in. I hope someone else can supply an easier option. Who else in the world has one of those extinguishers! ;D Take a couple of gallons of oil with you too. I don't know what fluid the tranny uses, some use 40W for the engine and tranny. Mine was a stick, so I am not sure about the auto. Check the powersteering reservoir (green canister on the passenger side cradle beam that runs behind the main rear door). Mine used type F tranny fluid. Of course, check the antifreeze! I went to look at another 4905. The owner started it right up. After a few minutes, I looked at the dash gauge and saw no oil pressure. I ran to the engine to check there,-NO OIL PRESSURE! I shut it down, checked the dipstick - NO OIL! Lord knows how many times it had been run dry! I fired up an MCI after 5 years of sitting. It still had pressure and came to life in half of a crank. This one should too. It is so much fun checking out these old things! Good luck!
thanks tenor
I guess what I'm going to do is go over on thus.and look some more Then by tus. we are supost to have 2 days of temps with lows in the 40;s so I'll try to start it then If it cranks and airs Then I'll try to find a radiator for under $500
if i can find that and the bus does not blow up ,make wearied nosies, catch fire or just piss me off. There is a tire buddy sitting on the dash That I can beat the wheel wells ect with to check for rust Then if no other bus has come along
I'll start to buy it
I think it has been at least 1 1/2 years maybe more since it started
mike
mike
After skimming the posts I didn't see how much you were willing to pay for it. I hope you can become knowledgeable about what you would be getting into with that bus. GM busses bring little to nothing, even ones that are in great shape. My father is looking at a very nice 4106 in CA that is converted, ready to roll, and the asking price is $13k OBO (v730, jakes, pwr steering, solar, etc). There is no way you can build anything, or repair anything close to that. And that's not all; I am finding those deals more and more often. I know of another 4106 V730 conversion that has been overheated, but is being repaired in a shop, that will have the same asking price. I know you are looking for a 40' bus and I don't follow them like I do what I own, but my point is that you can probably buy an already done, drivable 4905, a lot cheaper than what you will have in the one you are looking at. There are other problems associated with an old GM bus. It takes the same amount of money and time to convert or fix it as it would an MCI. But after sinking thousands of dollars into a GM you have a bus that at the top end would bring $25k (anyone recall the nice one GMbusguy had for sale? $27,500). However the MCI could bring double that. There have been articles in BC magazine covering this topic and others here can explain it better than I can. After reading how tight money is for you and your family right now I would hate to see you get stuck with something that would be such a financial burden as that bus could easily be. If it's not ready to roll then I wouldn't pay more than scrap price period. Everyday there are people starting to dump nice machines on the market for less than what it cost to buy an inexpensive pull-behind trailer. Everyone here knows how much I love a GM, but it would be irresponsible for any of us not to point out the negatives to you and your family......HTH
Laryn
Mike -
It's very easy to buy a bus. . . :)
But it's far more difficult to sell a mistake. . . :'( :'( :'(
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: Barn Owl on January 22, 2008, 11:00:26 PM
After skimming the posts I didn't see how much you were willing to pay for it. I hope you can become knowledgeable about what you would be getting into with that bus. GM busses bring little to nothing, even ones that are in great shape. My father is looking at a very nice 4106 in CA that is converted, ready to roll, and the asking price is $13k OBO (v730, jakes, pwr steering, solar, etc). There is no way you can build anything, or repair anything close to that. And that's not all; I am finding those deals more and more often. I know of another 4106 V730 conversion that has been overheated, but is being repaired in a shop, that will have the same asking price. I know you are looking for a 40' bus and I don't follow them like I do what I own, but my point is that you can probably buy an already done, drivable 4905, a lot cheaper than what you will have in the one you are looking at. There are other problems associated with an old GM bus. It takes the same amount of money and time to convert or fix it as it would an MCI. But after sinking thousands of dollars into a GM you have a bus that at the top end would bring $25k (anyone recall the nice one GMbusguy had for sale? $27,500). However the MCI could bring double that. There have been articles in BC magazine covering this topic and others here can explain it better than I can. After reading how tight money is for you and your family right now I would hate to see you get stuck with something that would be such a financial burden as that bus could easily be. If it's not ready to roll then I wouldn't pay more that scrap price period. Everyday there are people starting to dump nice machines on the market for less than what it cost to buy an inexpensive pull-behind trailer. Everyone here knows how much I love a GM, but it would be irresponsible for any of us not to point out the negatives to you and your family......HTH
Laryn
Laryn
do you know what the scrap price is for one of these? I love GMC but I'm don't Haft to have a GMC
right now the price of this bus is $4000 If it starts ,runs and airs up some where around $2000 down (tax refund) and the remaining within 90 days The bus can stay where it is at It is much better for me if it stayed there and I can work on it Town is 2mi away there rather than 20mi one way my house
I'm trying to be careful and keep my eyes open Also keep looking for a better bus
thanks
mike
Mike,
Prices for aluminum change so much I don't know how to give you a good number, but there was a running, gutted 4905 conversion, that sold not too long ago for ~$1500. The owner said that's what he could get for it if he scrapped it. Figure whatever "dirty aluminum" is selling for a pound and subtract transportation cost. With that being said, even if someone gave you a decent GM shell for free, you can still get upside down with it really quick. I think you can do better by finding a turn key GM conversion. Look at all of the busses on eBay and what the highest bids are (not that much). They are only worth what someone is willing to pay. I think that if the economy does as poorly as some are predicting you will either find a good deal, or you will thank your lucky stars you didn't jump on one. With time and the economic situation on your side, you as a buyer need to take advantage of it, and do some seriously intense research. That way you will know a good deal when you see it. We have some things in common, I am not one of the retired busnuts, I work, my children are still at home (six, spread from 17yrs to 4yrs) and I am not independently wealthy. If you want to talk you can message me with your phone number and I will help anyway I can. A book could easily be written on this subject. Your bus is out there, it just needs to be found.
Laryn
Barn Owl and Mike,
That $1500 4905 was my old one that Larry Baker picked up in hopes of re-selling/keeping it out of the scrapyard. He still has it.
Quote from: Barn Owl on January 23, 2008, 08:49:18 PM
Mike,
Prices for aluminum change so much I don't know how to give you a good number, but there was a running, gutted 4905 conversion, that sold not too long ago for ~$1500. The owner said that's what he could get for it if he scrapped it. Figure whatever "dirty aluminum" is selling for a pound and subtract transportation cost. With that being said, even if someone gave you a decent GM shell for free, you can still get upside down with it really quick. I think you can do better by finding a turn key GM conversion. Look at all of the busses on eBay and what the highest bids are (not that much). They are only worth what someone is willing to pay. I think that if the economy does as poorly as some are predicting you will either find a good deal, or you will thank your lucky stars you didn't jump on one. With time and the economic situation on your side, you as a buyer need to take advantage of it, and do some seriously intense research. That way you will know a good deal when you see it. We have some things in common, I am not one of the retired busnuts, I work, my children are still at home (six, spread from 17yrs to 4yrs) and I am not independently wealthy. If you want to talk you can message me with your phone number and I will help anyway I can. A book could easily be written on this subject. Your bus is out there, it just needs to be found.
Laryn
I dont haft to PM you
anyone want to talk buses my phone is 572-372-6956
what is the worst that can happen? Someone call me an S.O.B. My stepmother has been trying since I was 8 to convince me that is my middle name.
I'll also figer out how tho send it in a message I do aprigate ( I messed the spelling up in that word stumped the spell CK.) the offer
mike
After reading all the posts, it appears as though they are trying to help you out Mike. By your last post you kind seem like your throwing it in their face. Not very nice considering YOU went to them asking for help and guidance. Just my 2 cents and I could be way off so take this with face value.... Back to it!!!
When I first read it I admit I had to do a little head scratching at first, but after a re-read, I think I figured out what he was trying to say. I think he is OK with having his phone number public, and that the consequences of having it that way are not something he couldn't handle. And anyone who wants to talk busses is welcome to call and do so. Also, the messaging is something he hasn't done yet, so it needs to be figured out. Lastly, he appreciates the help. If I'm wrong let me know, but that's my take on it. :)
Laryn
took me a re-read too. but that is the way I read it
Quote from: tekebird on January 25, 2008, 01:12:31 AM
took me a re-read too. but that is the way I read it
tekebird
thank you
yes that is what I meant.
My wife types for me most of the time because I'm so bad at it Plus a few glasses of wine last night did not help my keyboard skills. Witch are not good to start with
I don't care about my phone# being in public My name is one of the most common names in the US. Get stop by the cops with me for a burned out tail light in CA on my bus sometime The first 10 mins. are fun
It was one of those days yesterday
sorry if i P.O. anyone
mike
Anyone notice this in the BCM classifieds? I know this is only a 4106, and I don't know what the inside looks like, but it looks good on the outside. Nice awning, Sheppard steering, spring brakes, air throttle, and possibly more. And $10k OBO! GM's are selling for pennies-on-the-dollar. You cannot buy a decent large used pop-up for that price.
Link:
http://busconversions.com/class_htm/62gmc4106.htm
Mike,
I don't know if you are looking at 40' busses exclusively, but my family, two adults six children, have no problems with the 35' length. In fact you have access to many, many more places with a 35' lower profile bus than you would with anything larger. And keep in mind that the 4106 is considered the "sports car of busses". It has the advantage of being lightweight, 8v71 power, and decent fuel economy for a bus. And, as if I haven't mentioned it before, the prices are getting incredibly affordable. Also, if you wanted, you could convert it to a V730 auto transmission in the future. Just throwing that out there; giving you something to think about......HTH
Laryn